Open 473: Jungle Republic GAME OVER

[Josh Lyman]

Ninth Votecount (Day Two)

Human Destroyer: (2) Thor665, ProHawk
ProHawk: (1) Human Destroyer
Sky: (4) Tajun, 4nxi3ty, auspicious, Majiffy
Thor665: (1) Sky
Whiskers: (1) Rob13

Not Voting: Whiskers

(expired on 2013-02-28 04:19:34)

10 alive, 6 for lynch

V/LA: ...

[Sky]

VOTE: Sky

Wagon is largely town.

Most terrible vote on my wagon by far. You're like the person who votes for high school class president because everyone else thinks he's a cool guy. I thought you were better than this.

@Thor-if I disagree with your rationale for me having an organic change in mind, I'm scum. So I agree with this organic thing. But you're not giving any evidence this is why

you

changed your mind. You're just saying, "yeah it was organic." That's your simple scapegoat for hopping off my wagon.

[Majiffy]

Now that HD has hopped off I consider the Sky wagon 100% town.

So Sky's reaction above should entice any others that feel the same into voting him.

[Thor665]

So you're fine with voting with your scum-read Thor?

Interesting.

No, my scumread is fine voting with me - and hasn't been defending another scumread of mine.
Slight difference there.
And by slight I mean huge.

@Tajun - read on ProHawk, go.

[Thor665]

@Thor-if I disagree with your rationale for me having an organic change in mind, I'm scum. So I agree with this organic thing. But you're not giving any evidence this is why you changed your mind. You're just saying, "yeah it was organic." That's your simple scapegoat for hopping off my wagon.

And my scum plan behind that is...what, so when you flip town I have weakly hopped off your wagon?
Fething brilliant I am.

[Rob14]

#1293 shows you're fine with your scum-read voting with you - you explicitly stated it. The fact that your vote hasn't moved further proves you're fine with voting with a scum-read. You're being incredibly hypocritical and I don't see how this attitude is coming from town. You, yourself, in this very game, have encountered a situation in which you're okay with being on the same wagon as a scum-read. Despite this, when ProHawk votes with a scum-read, then you're all over him because that could

only

come from scum.

Unvote
Vote Thor

[Thor665]

Good job ignoring the points I noted as the difference - points I repeatedly noted as mattering while pressing on ProHawk.
Have fun with that.

[ProHawk]

Thor, you should probably speak with your vote instead of your mouth... it looks a lot less hypocritical.

[Rob14]

What difference does it make if a scum-read you're voting with is defending another scum-read? Why does that matter? ProHawk already explained his reasoning for his current vote and it looked like it came from town.

[Thor665]

Thor, you should probably speak with your vote instead of your mouth... it looks a lot less hypocritical.

So who should I vote for to not be hypocritical, exactly?

What difference does it make if a scum-read you're voting with is defending another scum-read? Why does that matter? ProHawk already explained his reasoning for his current vote and it looked like it came from town.

I grok that you disagree with my reasons - but to call my reasons hypocritical is rather derpy, because even when I initially tagged him over the voting with scum aspect I noted the specific situation i found bad about it,a nd there were multiple aspects, not one of which is present in what happened with HD's vote other than, insomuch, I am voting someone that a scumread of mine is also voting. And, yeah, if you ignore all the other stuff I suppose you can call it hypocritical - but it's derp on your part and is clearly not hypocritical. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree that my reasoning is sound, even if you disagree you can see that my reasoning is different than the situation i am in with HD and thus isn't what you're saying it is, which makes your vote dumb, me not a hypocrite, and the entire conversation kind of odd to even be had.

[Thor665]

You are okay lynching Whiskers or HD - but really want to lynch Thor, the obv. scum.
You then look at the tied HD and Whisker wagons, and vote the one Thor the obv. scum is voting for and not the one Thor the obv. scum has been repeatedly accussed of soft defending by avoiding it all day.

Tell me more.

Even for reference - here is the initial call out.
It's painfully apparent it's more than 'you're voting someone a scumread of yours is voting'
Read m0ar.

[Whiskers]

Last I checked, the counterwagon was the one that was formed in opposition to a wagon.
He had a counterwagon on a werewolf form whilst he was a wagon - that actually affects his alignment differently than the other way around.
Or am I missing something?

Oh!

...wait, what?
That actually might be. But I need you to IC for me for a second: what IS the difference?

[Thor665]

Okay, I can talk down to you, I'm a professional;

Situation 1: There was a wagon on a werewolf and a counterwagon formed on ProHawk

This strongly suggests that ProHawk is not a werewolf, as there is a decent argument that the werewolf buddy would have worked to start up a counterwagon in order to save his buddy. It means nothing as far as ProHawk being or not being Mafia, but would tend to suggest he's not Werewolf on the presumption that the wolfbuddy wanted to avoid lynching the other wolf and thus helped push a wagon on ProHawk

Situation 2: There was a wagon on ProHawk and a counterwagon formed on a werewolf

This tells us pretty much jack all. The werewolf buddy would not have started the counterwagon because, hey, screw ProHawk, and if ProHawk is a wolf than the wolves also wouldn't have started a counterwagon on themselves. ProHawk might be Mafia and the wolf wagon was there own counterwagon to protect a Mafia. Or, ProHawk might be town and the Mafia helped push through the wolf wagon simply because it didn't matter to them which wagon went through.

So, in one situation we have a slight chance (presuming we buy Wolf ability to generate a counterwagon) that he is less likely a wolf.
In the other situation we know even less.
The other situation is what went down.

Make sense?

[Whiskers]

Yes. With that premise, are you suggesting ProHawk mafia?

[Thor665]

I'm suggesting ProHawk questionable and wanting people and/or himself to fight for his town read.

[4nxi3ty]

Eh why not

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ProHawk

Because there is only a few days left, Sky is a good lynch, and PH is a bad lynch.
And proving that Sky is mafia will help me convince others that Whiskers is wolf.

Last I checked, the counterwagon was the one that was formed in opposition to a wagon.
He had a counterwagon on a werewolf form whilst he was a wagon - that actually affects his alignment differently than the other way around.
Or am I missing something?

There was a second push for a PH lynch after the Aldus wagon had formed.

I know I'm late to the party, but how would you guys feel about making Sky one of your "we can only lynch these two people"?

[PREEDIT]
@Mafjiffy: also that Aldsukkel is town.
As such, I suggest we pull 4nxiety, auspicious, and you, back onto the Sky wagon. Add me, uctriton would probably join, that's five. Convince Aldsukkel that Sky is the wagon opposite his, that's six. idk who'd hammer it though. Maybe Thor?

This happened after Aldus was place at L-1.

[Thor665]

There was a second push for a PH lynch after the Aldus wagon had formed.

Yep, who, besides HD, looks particularly skeevy there to you?

This happened after Aldus was place at L-1.

[/quote]
It did - but I'm already saying I think Sky is town, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make - clarify?

[Thor665]

Though, actually, 748 is a decent argument for Whiskers =/= werewolf.

[Thor665]

Okay, so we're down to about three days now.

Unvote: Human Destroyer
Vote: Whiskers

I'll help lynch Human Destroyer too.
If, oddly, a lot of people want to leap on ProHawk I'm at least interested in discussing it, but we should probably have had more discussion earlier and anyone making that shift now is kind of annoying.
Sky got enough late minute support Day 1 versus a wolf and also has the organic read moment so I'm really thinking that wagon push is fairly derp at this stage.

@Tajun
@4nxi3ty
@auspicious
@Majiffy

Now would be a really awesome time to actually explain your Sky push, which I think only Auspicious and Majiffy have tried to do (and Majiffy's logic is incredi-bad, no shock there)
It would also be a good time to express your thoughts about the reasons I just noted to not lynch Sky today.
Updated ProHawk opinions would still be appreciated, either I'm blind and derp or everyone else is, and I'm going with Occam's Razor on this but no one besides Majiffy has even *tried* to tackle that question, which speaks poorly for all the rest of you.

Whiskers and/or HD need death - let's work on that.

[Majiffy]

and Majiffy's logic is incredi-bad, no shock there

[Thor665]

You know as well as I do it's true. You rreads are almost all internal gut reads that you can't explain. because I think you're town I'm just thinking you're not applying yourself even as much as you normally do and that the amount of lauding you're getting is because of some mixture of derp players and scum players sucking up to you because you're being loud and proud. basically you're doing what I expect, playing like me but with less case underlay. it's fine, but I keep pointing it out so i get more sheep and people will hopefully remember to question your opinions if I end up dead.

[Tajun]

@Tajun - read on ProHawk, go.

Still town, not a chance I am going there today. See my iso, none of the reasons have changed. As for his recent behaviour, I feel a bit of the malaise here too, I don't see anything scummy there.

@Thor, post 1312: What in god's name are you talking about here? If you accept the premise that a CW to a wolf would not form on a wolf, then that tells us PH is not a wolf, in both cases. If you don't accept this premise, then it tells us nothing, in both cases. So WTF are you talking about?

@post 1318: Wow, where to begin. Here ( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4733346 ) is my Sky reasoning, in case you want to pay attention to what is going on. Again, mostly gut, but that is the best metric I have. Secondly, PH was the primary CW to Aldus, not Sky, and I note that Aldus never once tried to go after Sky, so

Sky got enough late minute support Day 1 versus a wolf

is a grotesque misrepresentation of events. As for your "reasons" to not lynch Sky, ie. your gut town read on him (is there anything else?) I happen to feel the opposite. So no, my vote stays, although I am more than willing to discuss HD. Whiskers is out as well.

[Thor665]

Still town, not a chance I am going there today. See my iso,

Re-state or quote them please.

@Thor, post 1312: What in god's name are you talking about here? If you accept the premise that a CW to a wolf would not form on a wolf, then that tells us PH is not a wolf, in both cases. If you don't accept this premise, then it tells us nothing, in both cases. So WTS are you talking about?

What are *you* talking about? He wasn't the counter wagon, the wolf was the counter wagon - and that makes a lot of difference. If you can't see that then I don't see the point in trying to explain it further, and it doesn't matter too much to me unless that's the sole reason you have a town read on him, which would be so inherently dumb in any case in multi-scum I presume it's not the case.

@post 1318: Wow, where to begin. Here ( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4733346 ) is my Sky reasoning, in case you want to pay attention to what is going on. Again, mostly gut, but that is the best metric I have.

Oh gawds, i am so sorry that I overlooked your case of 'gut'
Are you serious here?
Ugh, I'll look at this link after mocking you a bit more...
Okay, I read it - let's be honest it is 'gut' mixed with 'I think he plays poorly' and a dash of paranoia. It's a functional case, but it's not a case that will sell anyone, it's a case to sell yourself and justify your push - nothing more.

Secondly, PH was the primary CW to Aldus, not Sky, and I note that Aldus never once tried to go after Sky, so

PH was not the primary counter wagon to Aldus, Aldus was the primary counter to PH and then a Sky push appeared as a last minute alternate push that was a counter to Aldus.

is a grotesque misrepresentation of events.

How?

As for your "reasons" to not lynch Sky, ie. your gut town read on him (is there anything else?) I happen to feel the opposite. So no, my vote stays,

It's not a gut read, it's showing a legitimate read growth and suggesting that it stems from legit town interaction as opposed to scum hunting for mislynches.

although I am more than willing to discuss HD. Whiskers is out as well.

Why is Whiskers out?
Also, want to shift to HD instead of Sky then?

[Tajun]

2) Prohawk is town guys. Read his responses again, this guy thinks you are all morons for thinking he is scum. You don't get that when you accuse actual scum, you get people defensive. Prohawk believes what he is saying, he's the only definite town read I've got here.

In post 234, Sky wrote:
Do I smell defeat?

In post 235, ProHawk wrote:
No, you read it smart-guy.

C'mon guys, this guy is town to the core. Getting weak town on Sky too, tbh, although I don't like his Prohawk read. Just gut on this one.

Hmm, thought that I wrote more than that. Still, his reactions are dick-town and not dick-scum. Basically, he calls out people for bad behaviour and is frustrated when the town is screwing up. Yeah, still gut, but I'm not lynching a gut town read.

What are *you* talking about? He wasn't the counter wagon, the wolf was the counter wagon - and that makes a lot of difference.

I must be a fucking moron then, because all I can see here is that in either case you get the exact same info, ie. not likely a wolf if you buy that premise (which I don't really).

is a grotesque misrepresentation of events.

How?

The way you phrased it seems like you are saying "we wouldn't have two primary wagons on wolves at the end of day one, because a wolf wouldn't start a wagon on another wolf, therefore sky is not likely a wolf". This is a brutally bad interpretation of what happened, as a) Aldus did not start that wagon, join that wagon, or have anything to do with that wagon other than give a townread on sky, and b) Sky only jumped to Aldus when it was clear that he was getting lynched with or without his help.

It's not a gut read, it's showing a legitimate read growth and suggesting that it stems from legit town interaction as opposed to scum hunting for mislynches.

although I am more than willing to discuss HD. Whiskers is out as well.

Why is Whiskers out?
Also, want to shift to HD instead of Sky then?

Would it be reasonable to assume that your reason for thinking this is town behaviour is because he is calling you likely scum for changing your read on him to town unnaturally, thus indicating that he is more interested in finding scum than in seeming town? Otherwise, I am not sure what you mean here.

Whiskers is out because I don't think he is maf (see many previous posts) and I liked his reactions on page 47 (think he's town). I could to HD, although I am still betting maf and not wolf there. He'd be my compromise lynch, if I can't have sky, but I'm staying here atp.

[Whiskers]

Though, actually, 748 is a decent argument for Whiskers =/= werewolf.

Then whyyyy switch to me in your next post?