/Invitational 13: The battle of Yarmouk. Decisive victory!

[DeathRowKitty]

I don't think he's scummy and I highly doubt he's scum with you. I also want to know his answer to that question, but I don't have high hopes for him answering it any time soon because of his playstyle.

[DeathRowKitty]

*will respond to things in large post after eating*

[DeathRowKitty]

@DRK: what do you feel about KK's vote on Kitty yesterday? Is it a likely play from scum?

I don't think it means anything. The mith-wagon at that point was a no-go and he was otherwise committed to voting me, with Rhinox being his only visible support. He had nothing to lose by voting KittyMo if he was scum, even if she was his buddy.

[chamber]

@chamber: in 263, you said you felt exactly one of DRK and KK were scum. Why not neither? (Yeah, I know you've already decided not to answer that. But I need an answer to get a better read on you, and if I don't get a better read on you I want you dead.)

I wasn't setting up some kind of false dilemma, which seems to be what you are implying. I was explaining why kitty town sitting at l-1 was consistent with her being town in one of my game views. I simply find them both independently scummy to a great degree, but don't think that they are likely to be scum together because of their interactions with each other.

[mykonian]

Because of Hind's courageous move, the muslim army still was intact. Vahan, who also had seen his losses, would attempt to find another angle today.

votecount

chamber (2): Kublai Kahn, Fishythefish
deathrowkitty (1): chamber
Kublai Khan (1): deathrowkitty

not voting (3): Rhinox, mith, katsuki

[Fishythefish]

@DRK: How was the mith-wagon a no-go? That sounds more like the words of someone who wants to say KK is scum than someone who is looking at the game. Here was the votecount:

Initially, Vahan's plan seemed succesful. Both Muslim wings were pushed back by the unstoppable Roman legions, but were not broken. Could they push back in time to protect their pinned down center?

votecount

Kublai Kahn (2): chamber, deathrowkitty
mith (2): KittyMo, katsuki
KittyMo (2): Fishythefish, Rhinox
Katsuki (1): mith
DeathRowKitty (1): Kublai Kahn

not voting (0):

KK had previously pushed a mith wagon D1, and listed mith (just) above Kitty in a scumlist day 2. On the more general climate, there was no serious pro-mith feeling around.

Granted, there was no obvious route to a mith lynch. But the same was true of anybody else in the game. You make it sound like the day had come down to KK vs Kitty, and that's not close to the truth.

@chamber: ok, just seemed an odd way to put things. Why did you think each of them was scum? From your posting, I *think* you agree with Rhinox that DRK's case was overblown rhetorically, but I'm not sure why you thought KK was scum.

[Kublai Khan]

@chamber: in 263, you said you felt exactly one of DRK and KK were scum. Why not neither? (Yeah, I know you've already decided not to answer that. But I need an answer to get a better read on you, and if I don't get a better read on you I want you dead.)

I wasn't setting up some kind of false dilemma, which seems to be what you are implying. I was explaining why kitty town sitting at l-1 was consistent with her being town in one of my game views. I simply find them both independently scummy to a great degree, but don't think that they are likely to be scum together because of their interactions with each other.

Really? Because it read strongly like you're fence sitting on a false dilemma. Hell, it still does.

Why has the scale tipped more towards DeathRowKitty being scum than me?

[DeathRowKitty]

@DRK: How was the mith-wagon a no-go? That sounds more like the words of someone who wants to say KK is scum than someone who is looking at the game. Here was the votecount:

Initially, Vahan's plan seemed succesful. Both Muslim wings were pushed back by the unstoppable Roman legions, but were not broken. Could they push back in time to protect their pinned down center?

votecount

Kublai Kahn (2): chamber, deathrowkitty
mith (2): KittyMo, katsuki
KittyMo (2): Fishythefish, Rhinox
Katsuki (1): mith
DeathRowKitty (1): Kublai Kahn

not voting (0):

KK had previously pushed a mith wagon D1, and listed mith (just) above Kitty in a scumlist day 2. On the more general climate, there was no serious pro-mith feeling around.

Chamber had mentioned not finding mith scummy, I never showed much interest in voting mith, mith obviously wasn't voting mith. That leaves just you and Rhinox that could possibly push through a mith wagon and you were both on the KittyMo otherwagon.

[chamber]

@chamber: in 263, you said you felt exactly one of DRK and KK were scum. Why not neither? (Yeah, I know you've already decided not to answer that. But I need an answer to get a better read on you, and if I don't get a better read on you I want you dead.)

I wasn't setting up some kind of false dilemma, which seems to be what you are implying. I was explaining why kitty town sitting at l-1 was consistent with her being town in one of my game views. I simply find them both independently scummy to a great degree, but don't think that they are likely to be scum together because of their interactions with each other.

Really? Because it read strongly like you're fence sitting on a false dilemma. Hell, it still does.

Why has the scale tipped more towards DeathRowKitty being scum than me?

What new information did we get between my two votes I wonder?

[Kublai Khan]

What new information did we get between my two votes I wonder?

I'm not going to spend the game inferring your logic.

[chamber]

@chamber: in 263, you said you felt exactly one of DRK and KK were scum. Why not neither? (Yeah, I know you've already decided not to answer that. But I need an answer to get a better read on you, and if I don't get a better read on you I want you dead.)

I wasn't setting up some kind of false dilemma, which seems to be what you are implying. I was explaining why kitty town sitting at l-1 was consistent with her being town in one of my game views. I simply find them both independently scummy to a great degree, but don't think that they are likely to be scum together because of their interactions with each other.

Really? Because it read strongly like you're fence sitting on a false dilemma. Hell, it still does.

Why has the scale tipped more towards DeathRowKitty being scum than me?

This post gets more ridiculous the more I think about it. Please describe how my play can in anyway be described as fence sitting?

And you don't need to infer anything with respect to why I changed my vote if you actually read my posts. Rereading my ISO will probably do you a service if this is negligence and not malicious.

[mith]

I need to re-read the whole DRK/chamber/KK interaction in light of the flip, and I'm not sure when I'm going to have time to do that (about to dive back into a weekend of board games). In the meantime, I'm still satisfied with my Katsuki=scum read, so I'll plant my vote there.

VOTE: Katsuki

[Rhinox]

Fun fact: The mod apparently decided deadline didn't matter because this is a nightless game and only ended the day because I harassed him about it on AIM. It's not like anything important happens at deadline, right?

Something is off about this.

You weren't voting kitty. Why harass the mod to end the day on a deadline lynch when, if you wanted the day to end, you could have just hammered kitty?

---------------------------------------

I'm slightly more suspicious of katsuki due to kitty-scum. On D1, kats had no issue hammering panzer because the day was dragging on. But on D2, with kitty sitting at L-1, and the day dragging on to a deadline, kats just kinda twiddles thumbs from #256-#259.

---------------------------------------

Updated scum list for me from town to scum:

Fishy
-----
KK
-----
mith
kats
-----
DRK
Chamber

[Fishythefish]

Chamber had mentioned not finding mith scummy, I never showed much interest in voting mith, mith obviously wasn't voting mith. That leaves just you and Rhinox that could possibly push through a mith wagon and you were both on the KittyMo otherwagon.

You could essentially have made this post about any of the three wagons:
"Fishy and Rhinox had mentioned not finding KK scummy, KK obviously wasn't voting KK. That just leaves KittyMo and katsuki that could possibly push through a KK wagon and they were both on the KittyMo otherwagon."
"chamber had mentioned finding Kitty town, Katsuki never showed much interest in voting KittyMo, Kitty obviously wasn't voting Kitty. That just leaves DRK and mith who could possibly push through a Kitty wagon, and they were both on other wagons."

The top 3 wagons (KK, mith, Kitty) all had 2 voters, a person or two who was not at all interested, and a few people who didn't have strong feelingse. Sure, chamber, you, Rhinox and I all preferred other wagons, but in a deadline scramble, or just after things changed, any of us might well have switched to mith. I don't see how you can look at the state of play at post 200 and say that mith was never going to get lynched; I think at that stage every vote one way or another was really important.

[DeathRowKitty]

The KK and KittyMo wagons both had people that could realistically have made the jump. At most, the mith wagon could have gotten Rhinox. You'd just made a big deal about how we needed to settle on a wagon and that that wagon was KittyMo and no one else could reasonably have been expected to go for it.

In the case of KK, both KittyMo and Katsuki were wild cards - neither of them had been around to have given an opinion on the wagon and either or both could plausibly have joined. mith voted KittyMo over KK but seemed likely to go for KK if KittyMo and Katsuki lynches weren't possible.

In the case of KittyMo, there was the possibility of Katuki and mith, one of which did materialize.

Unless KK was going to out-of-nowhere try to get you to convert to mith after you'd just made a big point of KittyMo being the best deadline lynch, the mith wagon was simply not a possibility.

---

You weren't voting kitty. Why harass the mod to end the day on a deadline lynch when, if you wanted the day to end, you could have just hammered kitty?

I had no interest in moving my vote. I harassed him to end the day because

I'm not entirely convinced his modding isn't an experiment in how little effort he can put into a game without his players complaining

if he wasn't going to bother even looking for a replacement for a player that asked to replace out, he may as well just end the day and have her be lynched. It turns out he actually was looking for a replacement and just never acknowledged in thread that he'd noticed she asked to replace out. I am extremely disappointed in our mod so far this game

[Katsuki]

@Kat: did you see my post 260 yesterday?

I hadn't, no.

I really must apologize for my inactivity thus far this game. I am done with finals on Wed. but the most important one is on Monday so hopefully I'll have time to catch up on the end of yesterday and get my thoughts out there.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm not actually entirely sure what you were referring to now when you asked me for examples of posts like those, chamber. Depending on what you meant, I might.

^ To expand on this, I suspect I interpreted what you said more literally than you intended - I played a few games in March 2011 that may or may not have what you're looking for.

[Fishythefish]

The KK and KittyMo wagons both had people that could realistically have made the jump. At most, the mith wagon could have gotten Rhinox. You'd just made a big deal about how we needed to settle on a wagon and that that wagon was KittyMo and no one else could reasonably have been expected to go for it.

In the case of KK, both KittyMo and Katsuki were wild cards - neither of them had been around to have given an opinion on the wagon and either or both could plausibly have joined. mith voted KittyMo over KK but seemed likely to go for KK if KittyMo and Katsuki lynches weren't possible.

In the case of KittyMo, there was the possibility of Katuki and mith, one of which did materialize.

Unless KK was going to out-of-nowhere try to get you to convert to mith after you'd just made a big point of KittyMo being the best deadline lynch, the mith wagon was simply not a possibility.

Two things about this exchange:

1. This argument makes me feel DRK is town. The beginning of today was an excellent opportunity for scumDRK to walk back his scumread on KK - it's now unpopular, and there's a good reason to change your mind (the Kitty flip). The fact that DRK isn't doing that, and is arguing against my KK-is-town point, seems to be totally unmotivated for a scumbag.

2. On the substance - if KK votes mith we might well get near deadline looking like this:

mith: KittyMo, katsuki, Kublai Khan
KittyMo: Fishythefish, Rhinox, mith
Kublai Khan: chamber, deathrowkitty

What's going to happen? If KK is scum, Kitty's not likely to be moving. You're fixed on KK, and I've just made a great big speech, so I'm going to be ranting on about KK. The reasonably likely moves would be:

Rhinox -> mith
Kat -> either
mith -> KK
chamber -> mith

Looks to me like any of the wagons could collapse. If it came down to two wagons, here's the best guess for mith vs Kitty:

mith: KittyMo, katsuki, Kublai Khan, chamber
KittyMo: Fishythefish, Rhinox, mith

with DRK unguessable. If it came down to mith vs KK:

mith: KittyMo, katsuki, Kublai Khan, fishy, Rhinox
KK: chamber, DRK, mith

So. I think the day could easily have ended up in a 3-way messy impasse, or with any 2 of the three wagons fighting it out. In either of the matchups, mith looks pretty likely to be lynched. All in all, KK voting mith would definitely have made a mith lynch a real possibility.

[mith]

Alright, finally a little free (non-nap) time tonight.

Fishy's #220 screams town. Moving on.

Pretty much in agreement with Fishy's argument on KK. He could have voted for me, and instead voted for scum. The only significant scenario I can see him doing that in is if he's scum with Katsuki and didn't want to have all three scum on my wagon.

Rhinox is left as the most likely bus by PoE, but I've read him consistently as town. So I'm feeling pretty confident that our remaining scum were off-wagon.

That makes me extra happy about my Katsuki vote, because DRK/chamber doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a pairing to me. Of the two of them, I lean toward DRK just on the sheer weight of his push counter to the Kitty lynch.

[DeathRowKitty]

Fishy - I'll think about that in a bit. I may or may not have been forgetting KittyMo is scum when I looked at the possible voters. I read your posts two nights ago, decided "garble garble I don't feel like thinking right now", and then forgot about it tbh >.>

[chamber]

I know how you feel... it's pretty much how I feel at this point. T^T

I still want to say that I'm not wrong on mith and obviously lynching him is hard, but how last day went obviously has me doubting myself. Also means obviously that there are other good players as scum this game which is all blah.

Chamber you don't seem to be as engaged with this game. Why is that?

This feels like town katsuki to me for what its worth.

[DeathRowKitty]

I may or may not have been forgetting KittyMo is scum when I looked at the possible voters.

Never mind, that wasn't the difference between our analyses. I was looking at wagons individually and counting the votes I thought they might get without considering the fact that wagons had to split voters. I think. Or maybe I just miscounted. I'm not entirely sure. This does weaken the possibility of KK being scum.

[Rhinox]

Responding to prod. Need to devote some time to this game but as of right now don't see me voting outside of chamber, DRK, or mith today.

[Katsuki]

Proddodge

Still working my way through finals

[Fishythefish]

Pretty much in agreement with Fishy's argument on KK. He could have voted for me, and instead voted for scum. The only significant scenario I can see him doing that in is if he's scum with Katsuki and didn't want to have all three scum on my wagon.

Yeah, this makes sense - if Kat is scum KK becomes pretty likely again.