Micro 148: 50/50 Mafia (OVER)

[KX]

VOTE: Vote: CityElectric

Great game you just hosted, so how better to say thanks then a vote?

[KX]

^ I echo these sentiments, minus the vote. English, motherfucker, do you speak it?

[KX]

While technically true, I can never resist a pulp fiction quote Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't that not actually how old English was spoken? And even more technically, he isn't

speaking

any language, he's typing. But tis a silly topic, and not relevant, so I'll stop now.

[KX]

Also, on that, two things. First, I assume that the anonymous target has to be different from the regular lynch target, correct? And second, are we allowed to talk about and discuss the anonymous vote, and so have everybody agree together who the second lynch option should be during regular voting hours? If the second one is allowed, then I suggest we take it, so as to allow the Town to maintain as much control as possible over the vote.

[KX]

Never even heard of it. And tbf, the situation in which I watched it for the first time might be biasing my opinion of it. God damn, we are getting really off topic. But what I mean with the voting is, when we're casting votes, we all say and agree on who the alternative lynch should be, and then all villagers vote that person for the anonymous vote. If we do that, we make sure the mafia aren't able to use their own agenda for the anonymous vote, and possibly get control of the day. Like, we choose to lynch Player A, and we decide that aside from them, Player B is the most scummy, and so we all anonymously vote B. That way, either A or B will be lynched, and it can't be all mafia vote Player C while the town votes random people, and then Player C ends up being lynched.

[KX]

@Mod

, can we post during Twilight?
Also, I think it's a general rule that if somebody hammers without village consent on a non-confirmed scum, they themselves are scum, so yeah, probably get them. Though that is an interesting effect of this, means mafia can't quickhammer. And still, we should, if it's allowed, try to decide what we'll all be voting for the anonymous lynch, simply for organizational sake. Not having everybody deciding the anonymous lynch last second and such.

[KX]

that way we can make sure that the mafia cant outvote us with the anon vote

Wow what a softclaim...

FoS: Kid A

If we do that, we make sure the mafia aren't able to use their own agenda for the anonymous vote

??? 23 < 34, so why give a notice to only Kid A? Am I not important enough?

Also,

Vote: Alexcellent

Care to join the discussion, even if, as it stands, there isn't much?

And Happy Scumday D3f3nd3r!

[KX]

I should very much know who to vote for if it's for the sake of my faction.

As mentioned in my previous post, this issue seems to be one of importance to you, so I assume not wanting to claim village (strange in it's own right . . .) is why you say "for the sake of my faction?" Also, on this whole thing, wouldn't only the mafia, having communication with each other, know who to vote for, while the village, unless some sort of system was created, would be reduced to random anonymous voting?

My final point of this post is to ask if anybody has original thought on the anonymous vote different from what I state in #19 and #23, and is echoed throughout the thread, or if that'll be the general plan we go with, communicating in some for what are intent for the anonymous vote is before hammer?

[KX]

Holy fuck people it is not that hard to just say "I think we should anonymously vote (Player Name)" and then have people agree or disagree. This isn't like we all have two votes now.

@thenewearth, you have yet to answer my question. Also, implying that a player is town, especially in such a way as Kid A had, isn't of any value; it's how you'd say something regardless of alignment. Defending something is not immediately anti-town, and isn't actually anti-town at all, so why do you make it out to be? As for saying "this should be good" when there really is nothing else to say on it, makes it seem as if you expect more to come, and overall how you've worded it makes it so you frame them as scum no matter what. Then directly after state what they did is generally town. And even then, you're thinking of claiming Vanilla Townie, which they didn't do; They simply implied they were of Town alignment, regardless of role.

So, question time based on this. @thenewearth, in addition to the previously mentioned, how do you get all this coming together? I don't know about you, but to me, it seems like you're really trying to frame this person as scum over nothing, rather then trying to find actually scummy actions. @Hamlet, why the bandwagon on what new earth said? It helps in no way at all, their question is bad to being with, and there are other things to discuss. Seems kinda like trying to appear town and helpful without actually being such and framing another person throw into the deal, no?

[KX]

The question is located in post #48 on page 2, reading the thread helps. Also, check out post #50 on this page.

And yeah, I am. Though tbf, it's more like I'm saying your attacking them is scummy since your attack is over nothing. And once again, you fail to answer the question. You instead immediately divert attention back to them, and now me as well. Answer:

Why did you press against them and not me over the same issue?

Why, when referring to your own alignment, do you say "my faction" if you're town?

Why do you think implying oneself is town, when it's in a natural context and not outright saying "ok guys, I'm Town" is scummy/questionable?

Why is their "defense" which isn't even a defense more grounds for the being scummy?

Why are you acting completely biased against them in a way which makes them seem scummy regardless of the facts?

Why have you ignored my question/are you not reading the thread?

[KX]

This?
Sure... Now you're as equally important as Kid A. Good job

Not a fucking answer. I wanted to know, why, at that time, when me and him did the same thing, you called him alone out on it, not what your opinions of us both were now. And because I point out what you did is stupid, I'm as scummy as the person you called scum over nothing? Cool, that actually makes sense, however, only if we're both neutral reads, and you seem to be implying differently.

1) That is not an answer to the question. Why would you want a reaction from only them and not me?
2) That is once again not an answer to the question. Really, I have no clue, that's why I asked you.
3) Once again, not an answer, or if it is, it makes you look stupid. For either alignment it would be exactly the same, and so nothing can be drawn from it. Most scum will be like that. However, so will most village. It's like saying because you talk, you're scum. Both alignments talk, it proves nothing.
4) Evidence that says why newb town, town, and scum won't defend during pre-game? Also, is what they did even actually defending, it seems more like they said what you said was stupid, something I agree with.
5) Finally, and answer which makes sense. Alright, however, if you base that pressure off something completely stupid like what you did, how do you expect anybody but a total nube to be tripped up by it?
6) Once again, not an answer. You should answer all questions asked of you if they're actually good questions, which I believe mine were.

New question, in addition to the rest again (with actually reasoning, if you don't mind). Why do you suck at answering question? Also, a note, saying you don't have a reason is really only scummy if you hide it. Which, in your case, if that is the answer, you seem to be doing your best efforts to.

[KX]

@thenewearth, age, and is English your first language?

[KX]

(no offence) trying to decide if my initial impression of you as an idiot is accurate. Well, there's a ton of material here for people, so I think we can say the game has officially started. Any input from people aside from me and earth here?

[KX]

also,

Vote: PemHel

, you've been lurking through this whole thing, care to add on?

[KX]

@PimHel, I was already slightly irritated at the amount of discussion over what I believed to be an extremely simple topic with an obvious answer, I just didn't really express it until the second post. As for the fence-sitting with theNE, I'm honestly unsure at this point, hence the lack of a definite opinion.

@Hamlet, I was referring to the quick agreement of opinion rather then anything with voting, specifically in

Alright, Kid A, you're not looking so hot, man. What gives? Is there something you need to tell us?

At that point, I felt the accusations against Kid A were extremely weak, and was curious as to why you would sound persuaded.

Vote: Alexcellent

back to my original prod vote.

[KX]

A brief look at the meta makes me inclined to say village idiot. Will read more when it's not 12 AM @theNE, thoughts on me after the exchange?

[KX]

I was curious as to if a lack of logical cohesion is something normal from them, as said lack would be my main grounds for reading them scum. As best I could tell, it seemed the norm, and hence my read of village idiot.

[KX]

I have seen scum say "well why aren't you scrutinizing me?" as an attempt to gain town cred. In fact I think I have done it before myself...
Also, prod votes on page 2 are a no-no. Its a way to act like your busy.
KX, have you ever been scum before? and can I get some links to scum games if you have?

True, especially gutsy scum, but in general it's a sign of town. Regardless though, I asked the question because I was curious why theNE had done it. Did they simply not see mine, or what? I still don't have a definitive answer, which is rather annoying, but I've given up on getting information from them via questioning. And why exactly is that a no-no, at least if one does other stuff and isn't using it as an excuse to seem active? Also, no scum meta, sorry to disappoint.

These questions contradict each other, you question TNE on saying "my faction" (clearly meaning town, he is not gonna be like: "my faction (because I'm totally scum...)) but then defend Kid A for saying "us" again clearly meaning town.

I was curious to what TNE would say about it, and if their being careful with terms had any relation to their suspicion of Kid A for implying towness. And I defended Kid A because I thought what they did was the completely natural way to respond, and didn't get why TNE was getting on them about it.

@KX
Would you have asked theNE for meta if I hadn't done so? And if so, when would you have done so?

I might have. If not, I probably would have just gone to their profile and checked via posts what games they were in. It would depend on how things turned out, but I probably would have asked/check it now, since I wasn't really thinking about meta at all last night.

[KX]

Uh, the only thing I could think of is if you want to try and say both me and him are scum, and this is some complex pre-game pseudo-buss. Or perhaps nerves? Not to inflate my own ego, but it could also be they expected and easier time against Kid A. Otherwise no, it's not something scummy as such, just leads to the VI conclusion.

And yes, I've never been scum, at least in a game like this. In Real Time Chat mafia I've been scum, but I don't think I have any logs, and those are rather bad examples. In non-No Outside Contact games I've been mafia twice, but those were my first two games ever, and since it's a different play style, wouldn't compare to now at all. But yeah, otherwise Town every game.

[KX]

Not that much fun either way, but it makes you easier to read. Making it so that it's harder to get a read on you is undeniably anti-town. Questions?

[KX]

@Hamlet, normally, as I've seen it, Hydras are run one of two ways. The first is were it's as though two different people, in which case they sign. The second is were both players highly utilize the ability to talk to each other, and establish the same or similar opinions on most things, and that they disagree on, they know why the others does so. In this case, they act together as one player. Also, I'm curious, what was the thought process behind to two of you deciding you dislike the idea of signing your posts, and would it really be such a difficult thing to do when it would help everybody else out? Another thing, with the head I asked a question of before, how would you have had Kid A answer? How could they be doing better in that situation, and do you have any grounds for expecting them to do better?

Anyway, sorry for the inactivity, just got Fire Emblem: Awakening and BioShock Infinite, so yeah, playing them.

[KX]

Wow, like, nothing is getting done. Anyway, time to contribute.

KX all your votes so far are prods, please say your top scumpick and why you think they are scum, even if you dont want to vote yet

Wtf was the point of saying this? And unless I missed it, I think the vote on me are srs votes. Maybe PimHel's isn't, but even so.

@PimHel/Zach, why the big deal over me keeping a prod vote? It's not like there's a wagon against you or something, so unless you can provide some other problem. Either way, since you insist, UNVOTE: .

So far, reads are as follows:

Town

Hyperion - I've got to be honest, at least from what I've seen, they seem to be the only smart person in this game. Most of their posts actually have meaning and are semi-helpful or hold a good point, so I'd say Town. Only thing I hold against them is voting me, more later.
PimHel - Mixed feelings, something seems off, but I can't say exactly what. Otherwise, they've made quite a few good points/observations, and so I'd say Town.
Thenewearth - As previously stated, I think I'm going to have to say Village Idiot, so barely town.
Kid A - They seem ok, however, they really haven't done much of relevance but defend themselves. They did that ok though, and I already mentioned #154, so I guess I'll go Neutral for now, I need to see more. However, if their contibution to things outside themselves remains horrible, Scum.
Hamlet - The interaction between heads is horrid, and I so no reason why if town they should keep who's posting a secret. In addition, what they've said separately is very minimal and pretty bad, so Leans Scum. Only redeeming thing I can see is the interesting RVS play, which led to something unique to start the game off with.
Zachattack - It seems like they've done very little, and his #87/89 about possible PR implication was strange to say the least, so Leans Scum
Temphdq - One Post. Nuff Said.
CityElectric - The lack of posting doesn't stand out too well, and their two most recent posts are extremely bad. This game really isn't that long so far, and it seems like it would be extremely easy to take a precursory glance at it and say a few words. A second post on them not being able to post is what really tips it. Leans Scum.

scum

Ironically the two people I read as most town are the ones voting me. But hey, that's just how life goes I guess.
Seeing as how I have four scum reads, a neutral-scumish, and a VI read, I think this pretty much sums up the game to me. I'm seeing very little happen or get done, and feelings that I'm not able to get good reads on the majority of this game. I can't tell if it's simply because most of the players are bad, lack of anything to base healthy discussion around, low activity, etc, whatever, but the point remains something needs to change, or I don't see this game going very far.

Anyway, @Hyperion, if I get this correctly, the reason for your vote is that I'm posting but without content? Even if some of my posts don't have content, though this is something I'd like to object to, since some of them do, how does that make me worse then the part of the game who have posts but no content, or worse, those who are without posts entirely? Since otherwise you seem pretty smart, having difficulty getting how that fits together. Only thing I can think of is somehow my posts seem to you as though they're being made to fake content, but if so, clarification on exactly which posts and how. If you hold to what's described in #83, then I've got some serious questions.

[KX]

Uh, considering I'm insulting you're playing ability, and as a VI you remain a lynch option, probably not.

[KX]

Because if I were to cast it, I'm not sure whom I would cast it on? I could go CE, but in their case I feel it wouldn't do much, Temp has been prodded already, and for anybody else, should I vote them, I feel there should be a purpose to the vote. As for not questioning anybody else, if you mean a page long thing like with NE, there hasn't been anything which has continued on long enough. If you mean to say I haven't been questioning people at all, were do you get that impression? You say I'm now questioning Hamlet, however, how so? I've asked them a question, multiple actually, but I've done that before to other people. As for mentioning scum reads before, it's because there's really nothing solid to go off of yet. If you look at my reasoning, most of it is due to a lack of content from them, coupled with something.

Anyway, you got one thing right, I really don't care that much. This is just one game, and a game that while seems really fun in context, is somewhat stagnating, and has what I must confess to be a so far boring player list. Seriously, you harp on me, look around and how much others have been doing. Compare this to games I've recently obtained, and factor in I'm on spring break and so trying to catch up on a lot of missed sleep, and yeah, I don't care. Maybe if things get interesting I'll do more.

[KX]

But the votes weren't prods. And at this point, having a single "top scumpick" isn't something I viably had. Also, as for the matter of scum deciding who to push on a nightkill, while I can see your point, suppression of opinions and information also makes it easier for scum to avoid giving opinions on partners or doing things which might out them. Also, it really isn't that hard to guess who you could press a lynch on a who you couldn't, or who is or isn't viewed as town, at least in a game were things are getting done. Kid A, anybody striking you as scummy at this point?

[KX]

Kid A, opinion on City?

Also, on Zach, you mean it makes him seen more town because of good reasoning, not just the fact he voted Hamlet, right? Also, since when has TNE's gut saying something been sound reasoning?

[KX]

@PimHel, they've stated that they'll post once they read up, and they'll take their time. I don't see how voting them will speed that up. They already have the obvious incentive of every minute making their case worse, which if they haven't guessed should be obtained easily be reading the thread, which they would also need to do with a vote. It's one thing if somebody is just staying quite, but in their case they've stated they'll catch up when they can, even if that claim is suspicious. And I suppose that would be because I haven't seen a question to really ask them which also makes me appear suspicious.

@Zach, nice post, very helpful, you're contributing so much.

[KX]

Sorry for the inactivity, anyway, to business. A Zach lynch sounds good, and CE for the anonymous vote would work well.

@CE, is this

Also, using your anon vote to lynch me could horribly backfire, just saying.

a soft claim, an AtE, or something else? Either way, makes me want to vote you even more.

@TNE, first, you realize that was sarcasm with an implication to improve post quality, right? Anyway, you seem to have continually and repeatedly read me as null, and you asked what the case against me is multiple times, up until shortly before the post in which you vote me. I don't believe anything was clarified between those two points, did that one post convince you somehow, the inactivity, or something to do with your town reads finding me scum? Or are you just bandwagoning on a potential lynch?

@PimHel, not quite sure about what you're asking me in #202, clarify? If you missed the sarcasm in it, then I know this is the internet, but can somebody tell me when saying the near or exact opposite of what is actually true stopped being the definition or sarcasm?

@MOD, votecount please?

[KX]

In #202, you ask "based on #179," which was what I was getting confused by. So what you're asking is why didn't I vote CE as a prod after unvoting Alex, seeing as how I voted Alex only as a prod? First I think I answered that already, but whatever, basically it goes that I was voting Alex as a prod, and once he was subbed out I unvoted him since the sub did stuff. I then didn't vote anybody because I felt a vote wouldn't do anything in any case. Also, don't vote the person who's doing almost literally nothing to help, has made very few posts total, and softclaims when they're suggested for a lynch. gj, I can see how you're pro-town. But yeah, the whole softclaim and mafia kills leads to endless WIFOM, even more so since this is 50/50. Care to give a reason why you won't lynch them?

[KX]

@PimHel, voting a player who probably hasn't done anything helps since it gives them an incentive to post something when up to that point that haven't had any, other then the obvious it helps the village, but hey, they might just be ignoring things or such. CE had shown that they were aware they needed to post, and yet hadn't really done anything, for the apparently reason that they didn't have the time. They already have an incentive to post and know they should, but have said that they can't.

Also, post #230 shows that they at least have a little time and have done some research, so why the near total lack of given content? While hard lurking doesn't seem to be a staple of their scum play, and so I'm inclined to believe that they have limited time, the fact that they can only say so little is somewhat telling. And to softclaim when they're only being talked about vaguely for an anonymous lynch, just really bad. Considering what you say about City and the scum killing them or not, once again, it would boil down to total WIFOM, and so unless the mafia ended up actually targeting and then hitting her, which seems unlikely at best, we gain nothing. While it is something to make us hesitate when lynching them, I completely disagree with you saying you won't lynch them. Yeah, more time could help with them, but what we've got looks extremely bad.

Anyway, what happened between this post and post #225? While yeah, an anonymous vote doesn't exactly mean we get two votes, it does me we get two people lynched, and so should discuss which two we should lynch as equals without distinction between an anonymous and regular vote suspect.

@TNE, answer the questions . . ?

[KX]

Also, @All, thoughts on policy lynching TNE since all current options seems to be shaky at best and disputed, and TNE is undoubtedly a poor contributor who seems incapable of helping, is difficult to obtain information from, and the loss of whom shouldn't be missed?

[KX]

I like how you completely misrepresent and misinterpret what I've said. Want me to use quotes to prove it, or can we just admit you're wrong? Also, even if you weren't making a completely false case against me, I like how you go off of scum-hunting methods, when by your own admission the main reason for labeling me as scum, and as your main scum read I might add, is that I made a remark you "don't like" that you can't show is alignment indicative in any way.

[KX]

This, btw, is kinda exactly what I'm talking about when I say policy lynch them. I really can't tell if they're scum or VI, and they aren't helping at all. Factoring in the other choices, seems like a really good option.

[KX]

@Mothrax, you seem to be implying that suggesting a policy lynch is scummy. Enlighten me on how exactly. It's one case were if a person is highly believed to be village and you suggest lynching them anyway, but considering the target, I think they've done quite a bit that could be considered scum as well. Yes, they could just be a VI, but they could not be as well. If you think I'm somehow trying to avoid saying they're scummy, and this is somehow a fallback so I can say "sorry guys, but hey, remember, I said they seemed village" if they flip village, then let me plainly state this. I have never read them strongly as town. They are scummy in my eyes.

@TNE, congratz, you pulled three quotes were I prod somebody. Forgive me for being obviously stupid, but how is prodding somebody scummy? I certainly can understand why prodding people isn't a reason to say the prodder is conf-town, but how exactly is it anti-town? If it's as been suggested that it's being used as a way to avoid making actual contributions, then once again, I can understand, but lets face it, you have three quotes. I have a total of 32 posts in the thread. I admit quite a few have little meaning, but what about the rest?

With regards to your quoting of my reads, yes, generally those who were more active are ranked higher, however, did you bother to read the reasons why? Those who were more active I found had more good points and things which I found to be village indicative, however, you, one of the most active players, was barely above a null read, and Hamlet, who was semi-active I believe, is quite low down. CE and Zach, who were inactive, are labelled scum for more then just being inactive, even if being inactive was a factor to it. Also, in retrospect, Temphdq should be above Hamlet, as I had no read on them at that point, but whatever. Just saying, if you bend the facts, you can make anything look true, but please examine in more detail. Also, if you don't have a at least general trend of people who do things are town, and those who don't are scummy, you're doing it wrong. Helping is town, and doing nothing hurts the town.

Summed up, your points (and all those against me) seem to be that I'm avoiding actually contributing, in ways such as taking the easy way of doing reads by saying activity=village. If you looks closer, the ladder statement can be found as only a generalization, and not the truth. As for not contributing, if you think I haven't done anything for the game, I don't even have words. Just read over the thread, or even my ISO. I present opinions, request information, answer questions, and ask questions of my own. Honestly, I don't know what more you think can qualify. Maybe I could have done more, but hey, as mentioned, I've been doing stuff, and I certainly don't see how I've done nothing.

[KX]

Personally I think it would qualify as a policy lynch, hence why I called it such initially, but if that term means something different between us, then fine, call it a lynch on somebody who I think has sufficient chance of being scum.

[KX]

btw, that's L-1, right?

[KX]

Playing mafia while drunk, gj, totally not counter intuitive or anything. And we probably shouldn't hammer until a definitive anonymous lynch is chosen and agreed upon, unless it is needed since lack of time. Care to say why it's scummy once you've sobered up, or now if you can?

[KX]

Unless I missed something, you have four people who want me lynched. As voting myself is against my win-con, I won't do that. So while it's a reasonable assumption mafia alone wouldn't be able to outvote that, since I won't be going for it, and who knows how the other four will vote, plus some of you are probably scum yourselves, it would be entirely possible for mafia to take the vote with good coordination and prediction. If you get more, then alright, but for now, I think it's far from agreed upon. As for the argument you make, have I not specifically stated I find them scummy? I'm not sure how calling it a policy lynch as well means suddenly I can come after the vote and say something else. Also, all this is assuming they flip village, which they quite possibly won't.

As for the "aforementioned case" haven't I, you know, disproved that? If any arguments from it still stand, tell them to me.

[KX]

Also, @All, thoughts on policy lynching TNE since all current options seems to be shaky at best and disputed, and TNE is undoubtedly a poor contributor who seems incapable of helping, is difficult to obtain information from, and the loss of whom shouldn't be missed?

I want to address this vote seperately. Mainly due to the 'all current options seem to be shaky at best and disputed'. You said to mothrax that nothing's been decided yet. Yet, you opt this, while being uspicious of at least theNE and CE.
This doesn't add up to me and is very scummy.

Yes, nothing has been decided yet, there's nobody who even a minor majority believe to be scum. We still have yet to decide as a whole upon our lynch targets. Nobody stands out as obv scum, or has a great case against them. And, I personally, as a single individual, am suspicious and would like a vote on TNE and CE. Please tell me why this doesn't add up and results in you reading me as scum.

@KX
Post #246 just screams that you agree with me and that it would make more sense to vote CE. 1. You admit that CE has read the game, so it's likelier for her to see the vote. 2. You admit she's scummy.
As for the WIFOM, if CE is town, it's scum who has to deal with it. Just think of some powerroles. What could happen if CE is powerrole X, Y, Z, etc. and survives the night? They have to think then if the worst possible outcome is the risk to take or kill her and get that risk out.

@Hamlet
So, apparently, you are mostly in sync now. Where are the reads and your thoughts on the latest discussions?

And while I see you're point as well, if we say "alright, we'll give them one night, since that's when they would likely kill her" it should be a relatively simple decision for them not to kill her. OR she could actually be scum, and because of your thought process, we won't get around to lynching them ever, and mafia not killing them won't point to anything. Add onto that how mafia only has a 50% chance of hitting the desired target, and even if they do select her as a potential target, she might not get hit, and will face this situation once more, even though your best case scenario of them targeting her happened.

[KX]

Done meta on TNE. Won't vote there. Still like Ham for scum. Willing to vote KX for self preservation, I'm null on him though.

Won't claim under any circumstance in this game. Neither should anyone else just because its L-1. Hammer isn't necessarily death, so L-1 doesn't take on the same connotation.

Willing to hammer/vote over this post and past suspicious. They say they've caught up, or have had time to, yet don't present any information. They say that they'll vote me, somebody who they read null, simply to prevent themselves from being voted. Now, if me or him being voted was a sure thing, I could see if, after all, as a townie, you're the only person who you know is town, however, since neither of us is something a majority seems to want, to not go after those you find scum I find to be scummy.

On claiming, hammer isn't necessarily death, but it does mean 50% chance of death. If you claim, it means 0% chance of death via lynch, and only 50/25% chance of dying via kill. Meanwhile, because you claim, the lynch can be directed at a player who is likely to be scum instead of possibly being wasted on you. So, by not claiming, you have equal chance of death at best, greater chance if there's a Doc, and if you get the bad luck of dying, then you waste the village's kill and possibly allow a mafia to live. In short, not claiming is by far the more harmful option.

[KX]

Kid A, care to say why the Zach lynch is dumb and mine is not?

In other word, what your arguments against why Zach should be lynched, and what arguments for why I should be lynched you agree with?

Also, is it just me, or do we have only a couple hours until deadline?

@PimHel, I already answered that in #276, but in case you missed it:

1. You said that all current options are shaky at best and disputed, while being suspicious of theNE and CE

- Yes. Not only are my own reads not definite, but when I said that what I meant was more of for the whole of the game. We can't as agree on anything and barely have the votes required to get me or Zach. Also, in case you missed it, I'm suspicious of Zach as well.

2. You told Mothrax that nothing's been decided yet.

- Yes. I am saying pretty much the same thing I said before; Nothing has been definitively decided upon.

3. You opted a policy lynch on theNE

. - Out of the options I have personally, TNE looked like the best. Scummy and unhelpful, with a playstyle that means I doubt I'll ever be able to get a solid read. Since I suppose I can see what you mean about CE, and if they truly will contribute later, then that means ideally I'd want Zach+TNE lynched.

[KX]

That's less then two hours if I'm not mistaken? As mentioned, Zach is a scumread of mine, so no hesitation in hammering, but would prefer to know if I will be/we have an anonymous lynch before.

[KX]

Fuck you etc gdi you suck lrn 2 play

Claim: Town 50/50 Alignment Cop

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT lynch.

Hammering in 20 minutes. Will anonymously vote TNE unless a better option is presented. BG, if you exist, go on me.

[KX]

k, it's Hammer Time. Mafia, bring it foos, you can't touch this.

Vote: zachattack

[KX]

Inspected City, so yeah. Damn. City, why you play like that?

Anyway, mafia gain the most out of a non-mafia player being lynched, and as such would most likely try to control the lynch. This makes it seem like they would have all voted the same player. Of the votes, the only clustering were on Hamlet, who flipped scum, and so was most likely not who the mafia voted for, and Me. However, if PimHel claims to have voted me, it means we probably only have one mafia left, or PimHel is mafia. Also, we can probably assume whoever voted City is clean. The other option is that both City and Hamlet flaked on the anonymous vote, and so ended up self voting.

[KX]

And yes, I do realize how bad this looks for me. Hopefully the anonymous votes will help to clean me a little, unlikely that 7/9 anonymous votes would be on mafia and the 2 on different people when voting is anonymous etc.

[KX]

That was me as I stated right before the hammer . . . . I somehow seem to have missed that we were going to bandwagon on Hamlet, and didn't know what the alternative to me was. Also, scratch most of the theory, I had assumed scum would be able to communicate the anonymous, but yeah, thinking about it that's still day. As for associative tells from Hamlet, I highly doubt Kid A and them were partners, they read me and Mothrax strongly town, and despite mentioning TNE a couple times, never voiced an opinion on them. So yeah, not that much to go on.

[KX]

lol wut is this I don't even

[KX]

Lol I knew it was Hamlet.

Anyways... who dafuq voted for me?

Tbf, this adds to the idea that they really did somehow miss my post. But yeah, it was frickin' bolded, and right above the update, so I don't buy it. If it is legit . . . just wow, this person is harmful. Adding onto it how Hamlet, despite mentioning them is before in posts, didn't give a read on them, I'm going to say scum. This is in addition to everything from yesterday btw. Only thing that makes me hesitate is their early game play involving Hamlet, but seeing as how the relation between to two was so lopsided, TNE's dropping of it, and TNE's play in general making it so I don't think strange applies to them, I'll go for it.

Vote: TNE

For other notes, I'm initially interested in Mothrax based on Hamlet and TNE's reading of them, but considering in Hamlet's case they did the same, I'm inclined to drop it. Also, will Hyperion say who they voted, and their thoughts based on recent developments?

[KX]

Yeah, seems to be. Well, then we know who voted CE and TNE, and so we can assume that all scum were among those who voted me. I mean, it's an anonymous vote, no reason to vote for a partner. Also, my other inspect was on Mothrax based on Hamlet's reading them town, didn't think that they'd name two non-partners are highly town. However, seems like they did. Well, I think we have enough to vote TNE off now. Any objections?

[KX]

I vote you for bad playing, being among the group which is outlined as scum, Hamlet's evasion of commenting on you, and faking missing my claim.

[KX]

Sorry, but I seriously do not see how it's possible to have missed it, and your reaction just seems weird when you "notice." And that last line means?

[KX]

When I said it looked bad for me, I meant because Hamlet said I looked extremely town and my inspect target died. I chose to inspect City because I had no clue if they would be active or not, and obviously nobody wanted to lynch them. My inspect on Mothrax was because they subbed in, there was a large amount of content they could go off of which could fake the illusion of towness, and they led the lynch on you, who it looked like wasn't scum. I suppose I could have gone with TNE, but personally I was hoping they would be lynched off anyway at some point. As for a town tracker, I would expect one not to be present in this theme, or if they were, they they would only get who the person actually used their action on. For instance, if the tracker hit mafia, they would get both a cleaned villy and a mafia out of the deal, which seems a little OP. In addition, considering the Cop is a pretty basic role, and nobody has counterclaimed, I think we can assume I am Cop. Though you do make me realize that a 2 man scum team is probably what we face.

Btw, @TNE,

can you elaborate at all on how these circumstances would mean that you missed reading all the thread until your fourth post upon returning?

PEDIT: can you read the thread?

[KX]

. . .

Anyway, wanted to add that another reason I had for voting TNE was that out of all the people who voted me, they were the only one who I thought would actually say they voted me and not claim to have voted City/Hamlet, seeing as how it would be extremely easy to do.

[KX]

*say that they voted me as scum

[KX]

Seeing as how I'm the Cop and Hamlet was scum, it makes to most sense for scum to vote me, and no sense at all for them to vote Hamlet. However, because of this, a scum player would actually vote me while lying and saying that they voted Hamlet. If you really want I can go into more detail, but pretty much with the information that all votes on me were claimed, I'm village, Hamlet was scum, and that the vote not for me or him are known, we can deduce that the scum is within TNE, PimHel, or Hyperion. Because a situation like that can be set up, a more thoughtful scum more involved in the game would fake their anonymous vote, and prevent any selection like that being drawn from the results.

[KX]

One of you three is scum. For the situation we have to arise, the scum must have not lied about their vote. I personally think that out of you, PimHel, and Hyperion, you're the only one who, as scum, wouldn't lie about their vote.

[KX]

Yeah, could be, but at this time you're the most likely, hence the vote.

[KX]

@PimHel, based on the Hamlet flip I felt their chance of being scum decreased. In terms of play alone, yes, I felt they were scummy. But following the vote now, I think I can ignore that.
For your second point, the game /was/ stagnating, so yeah.
Third point . . . alright, hurray for you. And when I said that I thought there were three mafia, if there were only two chances could be quite good.

@Zachattack, they were both at the very end of a list ordered on time, and both players were pretty inactive. Mod had already made a note about the whole selfvote thing, so I had to consider it as a possibility.

[KX]

Well, I'm good for this lynch as well, even if TNE would be my first choice.

Vote: Hyperion

At the very least explain some things and get involved in the current situation, k?

[KX]

I'm curious, TNE, what do you see wrong with my reasoning for what I did? And why inspect Zach after his actual attack on Hamlet (as opposed to yours, which never went anywhere and was dropped when it came time to lynch)? As for why I didn't inspect you specifically, you had, as mentioned, had your vote on him, which initially didn't seem like something I thought you would do as a scum partner. Looking over once again now, I see that it actually does seem quite faked, and combined with everything else, leads to my suspicion of you.

[KX]

Not really, just more information on why I made the decision. Also, I should have added "if I didn't find scum" to the end of the first quote. I had actually decided to investigate Hyperion/PimHel at first, and now wish I'd stuck to it, but after re-reading the thread changed to Mothrax and CE.

Spoiler:

Also, we have seven players alive currently. If there are two scum, then we know I'm not one, but if there's only one scum, then I could be it. Either way, the scum are confined to Me, PimHel, Hyperion, and TNE. Today we lynch TNE. If we don't win then, the following night I'll inspect PimHel and Hyperion. Next morning, if I die, there'll be five players left, and the village will get two lynches. PimHel and Hyperion can both be eliminated, and village wins. If I live, then same deal, lynch the two of them, except my inspect will tell exactly which of the two to get. So, with that plan, no matter what if I'm town, all three of them are eliminated, meaning a village win. Of course, what happens if I'm scum. Well, we'd mislynch today, and then the next morning I wouldn't die. I would have had to get a result from one of PimHel or Hyperion, either clearing one, or incriminating one, i.e. either way we learn which is scum. We lynch them, mislynch. That would prove I don't actually have an inspect, and it just so happens that there's one day remaining to lynch. Since we've said I can only be scum if there is one scum remaining, that means we lynch me, and game. As far as I can tell, no matter what village wins. Now, we're kinda fucked over here by the whole 50/50 aspect, and so won't be able to decide which of PimHel, Hyperion, and TNE would be lynched, however, if we were to miss them all naturally, then we'd be screwed anyway.

Short version for strat assuming there's nothing we've missed:
If I'm not scum:
Day 2: Lynch Hyperion and TNE
Day 3: Lynch D2 Survivor and PimHel
Day 4: Lynch D3 Survivor and Random
16.6% if one scum, 33% is two scum chance for village loss
If I'm scum:
Day 2: Lynch Hyperion and TNE
Day 3: Lynch D2 Survivor and PimHel
Day 4: My results would be off, and so lynch me/Random.
50% chance for village loss

Now, this could go wrong if on the Day 3 lynch we hit the person who I said was village, so me and my claim for who is scum lives, with which is actually scum being determinable. In that event, we just:
Day 4: Lynch me/Day 3 survivor
50% chance for village loss.

All these different plans coincide such that, were I am P1 and PimHel/Hyperion/TNE are a P2,
Day 2: Lynch P2+P2
Day 3: Lynch P2+P2
Day 4: Lynch P1+P2
Using this, we have the highest village win chance possible of 29.125% chance for village loss. Also, damn, calculating, this set-up seems really unbalanced. Prob messed the math up or something. Anyway, can anybody see any flaws? Btw, for those blinded by math, the current setup means that, if I'm scum, I have a 50% chance to win. However, speaking purely statistically, if we lynch me Day 2/3 and I'm not scum, the win chance becomes 50% anyway, the same win chance as if I was scum and you had waited to lynched me (I think). Anybody here have a degree in statistics? Since that would be greatly appreciated. I think that all this is actually for nothing, and from somebody aside from me's perspective lynching me on any day should be an equal win %, but not getting that. Ugh. Well, if we didn't have this 50/50 lynch, we should have a 100% win chance right now, but because of it, idk.

^Some probability stuff I got started on trying to figure out a guaranteed win, but pretty sure the 50/50 thing makes it meaningless.

[KX]

K, sounds good, though I'm curious, why PimHel>TNE?

[KX]

How could you be caught in a lie again? But yeah, I suppose the mere fact that somebody might think they could be caught lying debunks trying to minimize the lynch pool. Also, on your theory about Zach, if he no longer though he was a lynch target might explain the higher activity.

[KX]

Well, this game is going nowhere. Zach, any response to the accusations?

[KX]

Oh yeah, I'll try to get back to this game asap.

@MOD, we only have four days left, right? If so, we should really get decided on a lynch and anonymous lynch rather then waiting it out like last time. Tbh I can't really remember much, but unless we have anything important left to say, announcing who we want to lynch so we can get a consensus down seems like the best option. TNE and Hyperion would be my preferred options, but PimHel or zach are also acceptable.

[KX]

Oh hey AA! Anyway, Zach/TNE sounds good for now, will inspect whoever survives and AA prob.

[KX]

@AA, both the person who we lynch during the day and who gets the most anonymous votes will be put up for getting killed. One of them will die while the other will live, and it's a 50% chance for both the lynch target and whoever was anonymously voted.

[KX]

Well played Mothrax. Now if only my inspect had hit you instead of the late City N1 . . . But still, good game to everybody all the same!