NY 163: Void Mountain of the Nightless Temple (Game Over)

[RachMarie]

My point is I think he got a scum role, and realized he was not playing his usual level in this game, so replaced out to give the slot a chance with another player.

[ArcAngel9]

I see your point, I don't see any good reason why he had to replace out, its not that he is a player who choose to be in limited games or was going v/LA or neither had a good reason.

But, I ll give jennifer bit more time to defend herself. Jennifer , IGMEONY!!!!

[Zdenek]

DGB is somewhat likely town

KBW voted her for something like 12 hours, so I'm pretty indifferent to this.

But this is solid.

Vote: Jennifer

[Jennifer]

I'm done defending myself. I've already explained my actions and I can't speak for why Serra was only in this game for 7 days and decided to replace out. Possibly he didn't like dealing with all the hydras, possibly he found it hard to get his head around a game this large, possibly he didn't like that it was nightless and so there is no reprieve during the game from posting/thinking. Who knows.

Anyway, theLurker needs to stop lurking, and we need to hear from Antilles and Bulb too. (Maybe others? I'm losing count of who has requested replacing out but hasn't been replaced yet.. just Robo now?)

[Rainbowdash]

You could always just vote Antilles though. He is also scum and I would be willing to kill him if thats what we want to do first.

Why Antilles and not some other lurker?

Because Antilles is scum for game related reasons, not because he is lurking.

One of Jen/Antilles/MO works for today. Given that Antilles isnt getting votes, Jen/MO would make awesome dual wagons since if one is scum other gets moved to town camp.

Im thinking basically it something like:

Town:

Titan
DGB
Bulb

Town-ish:

AA
MM
HD

Nulll:

RM
Zdnek
TUA

Scum-ish:

Robo
Klick
TL

Scum:

Antilles
Jen
MO

Although as stated no more than one of Jen/MO. Kinda awesome how it all breaks into groups of three like that. Town-ish and Null are most fluid sections and kinda depend on how I feel at the moment.

[RachMarie]

oops I forgot the lurker was in this game... yeah he definitely needs to post more.

However it is nothing personal Jen, just was not typical Serra play so therefore I thought he was scum, and your response to me was oh you are sheeping... When I sheep I tell peeps I am sheeping and why.

[TheUnderachivers]

This is Nero, I'm having oral surgery tomorrow so I'll be v/la Wednesday and depending on how I feel Thursday and Friday.

[Voidedmafia]

Votecount 2.01:

Jennifer - RainbowDash, Klick, Metal Overlord, RachMarie, Underachivers, zdenek
DrippingGoofball - Titan
Metal Overlord - Jennifer, Human Destroyer

Not Voting - Antilles, Jennifer, Robocopter, TheLurker, Bulbazak, DrippingGoofball, Ms Marangal, Arcangel

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch and 8 to no-lynch.

The Deadline is in (expired on 2013-04-20 23:09:09) or by 10:10 PM on April 20th, 2013.

The Mastin2 head of The Underarchivers is V/LA. The Nero Cain head is V/LA until at least Wednesday.

just Robo now

Him and TheLurker now.

[DrippingGoofball]

VOTE: Antilles

[Bulbazak]

Finished going through a few ISOs and feeling better prepared to respond to people.

It's Metal Overlord whose lynch I was fighting, not KBW.

Than why not put a vote on KBW to counteract the MO wagon, instead of voting for yourself? That's what several of us did at the end of the day to protect our town reads. I'm just confused why you didn't do the same, and why you expect that to defend you in regards to you being scum with KBW.

Do you deny that you have mislynched a villager once or more before just because he was exhibiting "scumtells" but wasn't actually scum?

What does this have to do with the case at hand? A few mislynches does not cancel out the successful application of certain scumtells or their validity. This is simply Correlation Implies Causation, which is a logical fallacy. I would like you to address the case by its own merits, and not try to discredit it through some other means.

This proves that even you and your "scumtells" are not infallible, and also have a possibility of making mistakes. I am implying that you are wrong, in the case of this game.

Everybody makes mistakes. It's part of the game. However, that does not automatically mean that you can dismiss everything they say. No one's going to be perfect in their scumhunting. Period. Expecting them to be so is a fallacy (7 of 7 or BoP, I'm not sure which.). Let's stick with the points of the case, shall we?

You also accused me of buddying up to TUA, which implies that he is town, something that you'd only know if you were scum.

Is it possible, that both of you are scum? There is always a possibility, no?

Not if you suspect buddying, no. Buddying happens when scum tries to get on a town player's good side. By saying I buddied up to TUA, you're saying that TUA is town (which contradicts what you've said before) and I'm scum. There's no getting around that. You implied that TUA was town, I caught you, and now you're backpedaling.

So instead, you take a different position of defending him, with your currently unarguably high town-cred.

Wait. I have "unarguably high town-cred"? When did this happen? This never happens to me. Going to go do donuts in the Mafiascum parking lot. Brb.

Could you please provide reasons on why TUA is a bad lynch, and consequently a worse choice for a lynch than me?

Sure. He's town. You're scum. Questions?

Well then if my buddying up to you was specific for the intention to get only you off my wagon, why did the others get off my wagon first before you? Are you implying that my buddying up to you was not meant for you? Would the end result have changed if I happened to buddy somebody else?

Others' actions have no bearing on your actions towards me. Again, CIC. The difference between myself and the others on your wagon is that I'm a bit tenacious when it comes to my reads. I will strongly defend my town reads just as hard as I pursue my scum reads. You should know this after our back-and-forths, and chances are that you did know it when you originally buddied up to me. Simply put, after those scumtells, I was not going to be easily moved, unlike the others on the wagon. That's why buddying was the optimal scum strategy.

I have no idea why you find TUA town... really...

His posts have felt genuine, especially those at the end of the day.

Nobody, regardless of alignment, will want to be lynched. For a townie, you are the only person that is confirmed town, so you should defend yourself at all costs.

Yes, but it's how you defend yourself that makes all the difference. When you defended yourself, you were concerned only with not getting lynched, rather than confronting the reasons against you and showing why they were bad. What followed was a crap ton of AtE, rather than scumhunting. TUA, on the other hand, focused on getting as many reads and thoughts out as possible. They also confronted the points against them, rather than try to find ways to dismiss them altogether.

We have never dismissed a case, and if a case can be discredited, it is a bad/weak case. Even still, discrediting, is at least directly, confronting the case.

It depends on how it's discredited. If it's discredited by logical means using the validity of the points themselves, then yes. If, however, you attempt to discredit it via a fallacy or some other means or reasoning, then it is scummy. You've been doing the latter.

Regarding the OMGUS, I would like everybody to refer to

Shit.

KBW might be town.

VOTE: Metal Overlord.

We can still make this happen, no?

Actually, that's not OMGUS. TUA had a scum read on your slot for awhile. The most notable vote came from before his wagon started running away. That post came from the Mastin head, who tends to not think correctly when it comes to reads. Essentially, he saw you voting for KBW and immediately assumed KBW was town, for the precise reason that he had a scum read on you. Several of his reads are screwy in this regard. Simply put, he had a scum read on you prior to this post, had been voting KBW, saw you voting for KBW, and immediately developed a town read on the slot because he had a scum read on you. This is why he voted you, because of that prior scum read.

7.) After they saw that they could not deter me, they did a complete 180 and started implying I was scummy for some indeterminate reason. Personally, I think they're just flailing at this point.

Confirmation bias

On your part or mine?

I have no idea what chainsaw defending means

It's when you attack a player because they are attacking your scumpartner.

but I am sure of this fact: more people are in favor of lynching TUA than me, with more solid reasons and different perspectives.

This is AtM (Appeal to Majority). This does not prove that you're not scum.

Do share why TUA refused to distinguish which head was posting for the town.

Why does this matter? For the most part, it's easy to tell the difference between Mastin and Nero. But it has nothing to do with how scummy that slot is. Just treat the entire slot as a whole, and don't worry about which head is posting. This does nothing scumhunting-wise, and the more you obsess about this as the game goes on, the more I begin to suspect that this is just an easy out for you to score a mislynch.

Also that he apparently just called all of MO-Klick-DGB scum as reason to not vote Jen who he abstained on giving reads of.

Actually, Mastin called her scum yesterday, mainly for bad Mastin reasoning of advocating lynch consolidation on either their slot or the "town" slot of KBW. It's the same reason he was voting for DGB: his other scum reads were on the Jennifer wagon.

There's nothing town about voting someone when they have no internet access and say they may need to replace out.

Nah. I think townies re much more likely to have the balls to call out that kind of behavior.

Calling someone out for being gone for RL reasons is stupid. If I saw a player do that, at the very least, I'd consider them an absolute moron, at most, I'd think them scum.

I do think that Serra replaced out because he did not have the time to devote to playing a good scum game. Normally I read replacing out as a null tell, and I admit mostly a gut read based on Serra's posts.

But couldn't he have also replaced out because he didn't have the time to devote to playing a good town game as well? As you said, replacing out is a null tell. I have to seriously wonder why you are pushing for Jen's lynch so hard based on her predecessor, which you admit is gut, and not on any tells from Jen herself. To be honest, I had a town read on Serra, and Jen has done nothing to diminish that. In fact, she's made the read stronger. So unless you have something better than this crap, move on and find scum using actual scumtells.

Others proving my point for me holds more credence to me proving it myself. Besides, many others were against me for a policy lynch, especially Bulbazak, well so I don't policy lynch, and let you guys do it. Guess what? I was right!

First, I still find policy lynching to be bad and a scumtell for the most part. Key's flip does nothing to disprove that point. Many found him to actually be scummy, rather than wanting to just lynch for PL reasons. In the end, it was not a policy lynch, but a consolation lynch to save players that RBD and I had a town read on (RBD saved you, and I saved TUA). Yes we struck scum, but that does not mean that policy lynches are automatically good. However, you are right about one thing. There's no way the PL point will hold any weight. Consider that withdrawn, although I still feel strongly about it.

Vote Metal Overlord

I have a few more questions, and stuff I want to address after my ISOs, but that can wait until later. For now, I'm going to bed.

[Metal Overlord]

Meh, k, KX here, ./unragequit. MS convinced me to return etc, I think I'm caught up. First the things MS wanted me to address, then it's 2 AM, so ima head to sleep, some more stuff in the morning. My stuff is in italics btw.

The case on MO (for those who refuse to read walls and other relevant bits of information):

I assume then this is the entire case against us?

1.) Their stance on policy lynches are just bad. It's not even like other players' views on PLs, where it is sometimes a necessary evil, but instead, they advocate policy lynching for the sake of policy lynching. Simply put, they'd rather policy lynch than do actual scumhunting.

Point disproven. Early pushes for KBW policy lynch paid off. Just because you don't agree with our strategy does not make it a scumtell.

Wanted to add on here that this actually makes it a towntell, seeing as how it would have been extremely easy to say we don't favor policy lynches, but instead said we supported them when the main option was scum. Could be bussing, but doesn't seem like the appropriate time or place to buss

2.) Their reads list was fake and not genuine at all. Its only purpose was to placate town, not to help in the scumhunting and find scum.

Kx will reply

Excuse me, but were do I say it was fake? Those were my actual reads at that point. Yeah, the main motivation in making them was to give town something to judge the slot off of, not finding scum, but I don't see how that takes away from the fact that they were scumreads which showed who I found as scum.

3.) Their reasoning for the difference in reads when confronted was completely backwards. You do not read the entire thread to get general reads and then read ISOs to solidify them through context. Simply put, they got caught faking reads and messed up on their lie to get out of it.

Kx will reply

Well, fuck you too. Care to explain any proof you have of this? I'm sorry if you dislike how I play, but it's what I do. I read the thread to see what happened, how things went down, etc, then did ISOs to confirm or deny things I picked up about certain people, and while looking at an individual posts I could remember how it fit into things before. Also, if you're saying I only did that when confronted, and it was a lie made to get out of it, check out post #370 and #372. In both I say that I will

do the ISOs later

, and this is before suspicion in large came to me. Simply put, you didn't read my posts and made an incorrect assumption about how things would be done, then made up an incriminating explanation for why

4.) They succumbed to the pressure on them and panicked about being lynched, although at no point were they ever in danger of being lynched. Town would have continued scumhunting, instead all they were worried about was self-preservation. This is in line more with a scum mindset than a town one.

Kx will reply the first statement.

Wut the fuq? "The succumbed to the pressure when there wasn't even pressure" Sorry if this is misrepping, but can you read this to yourself? I made the post primarily because I wanted town to have something to go off of on the slot. We had done very little, and I wanted to change that. Idk about you, but I think if somebody does nothing they should get lynched.

KBW scum flip gives me confidence that my reads are correct.

VOTE: Metal Overlord

This is the guy that needs to die right now.

Lol i'll let KX talk to you since you just love mislynching me >.>

Hey HD bro, you like being scum? More to come later, but in short, does anybody who's played with HD think this seems normal for him? Ordinarily he's way more active and involved, and his go-to strategy as scum is lurk. He certainly isn't lacking time, he actually started hosting a game on another site we play on, so yeah.

Still kinda pressed for time, but think I can manage and hopefully be active.

[Ms Marangal]

VOTE: Jen

I suspected her earlier and her stating " I'm voting her because she changed her vote" is a complete misrep. yea, it's one of my reasons for wanting to vote her, though I did state that I found Serra suspicious, granted not as strong a Vibe as Jen is giving me now. basically, Both her and Lurker need to die at some point, I can go with Jen today and Lurker tomorrow.

I'm also fairly certain of MO town. Kx isn't coming off as scummy to me as he is to everyone else, and MS is completely genuine in his responses.

Jen: your misrep on me has to do with the fact that you Stated I voted for you due to your vote switching when that wasn't even the case at all.

[RachMarie]

Join the crowd MM she has been doing the same thing to me as well.

Which is why I posted links to Serra's finished games. To show why I felt Serra was scummy.

[RachMarie]

@ MO

Can you show me where HD is lurking? I have always played with a hyper agressive and usually bulldog with a bone tunneling HD...

[Jennifer]

I'm voting her because she changed her vote" is a

complete

misrep.

yea, it's one of my reasons

for wanting to vote her,

[Jennifer]

I feel like the biggest challenge this game is going to be fighting against inertia/avoiding falling into the dreaded lazy town lull.

My wagon has moved super fast for vague gut reasons, and no one seems willing to stand behind anything concrete, fearing to be pinned down. And no one on my wagon seems inclined to do the work to see if they're right or if there are better lynches out there, content instead to just park.

So, if I'm the lynch today,

YOU NEED TO WAKE UP

. Go back and look at who was on the Fuzzy wagon and my wagon. Also, stop giving MO a pass.

Actually, I want to hear everyone's opinion on MO who is currently voting for me.

[DrippingGoofball]

Jennifer is town, Metal Overlord is town, let's lynch Antilles!

[Voidedmafia]

Antilles has been prodded.

[ArcAngel9]

Jennifer didn't put the defence that i expected, she rather increased her tone.. that wasn't the Jen i have played.
VOTE: Jennifer

[ArcAngel9]

btw that is L-1

[ArcAngel9]

Jennifer is town, Metal Overlord is town, let's lynch Antilles!

Explain How jennifer is town DGB!!

[Jennifer]

I..... think you hammered me, Angel.

[ArcAngel9]

Nope I didn't, I counted the vote numbers before placing my vote..

[Jennifer]

Oh wait, 9 to lynch, 8 to no lynch. Whew.

I'm not sure what else to say to put your mind at ease. Nobody has put forth a case on me they're willing to stand behind, and I can't respond to a gut argument (let alone a gut argument that isn't even on me, but on Serra).

I can say I'm not scum, but that's not going to convince anyone either, so... I feel stuck here.

[ArcAngel9]

I actually MO is town and you reputation fall back with Serra's strange behavrion in this game. and i am not impressed by your defence not same as how i seen you in Friends and Enemies