NY 163: Void Mountain of the Nightless Temple (Game Over)

[Jennifer]

In what way do you find it different?

[Bulbazak]

The case on MO (for those who refuse to read walls and other relevant bits of information)

I assume then this is the entire case against us?

No, this is the abridged case. I didn't include some of the more minor or redundant scumtells, because this was created for those who hadn't been paying attention and didn't want to read walls.

2.) Their reads list was fake and not genuine at all. Its only purpose was to placate town, not to help in the scumhunting and find scum.

Excuse me, but were do I say it was fake?

How about here:

Well obviously it was manufactured, the whole point of it was to keep MS here from being lynched.

Manufactured = faked. Simple English lesson there, and congrats, you got it for free. And again, as town your primary goal should be to scumhunt, not to placate town. All I see from your admitted reasons are scum motives.

3.) Their reasoning for the difference in reads when confronted was completely backwards. You do not read the entire thread to get general reads and then read ISOs to solidify them through context. Simply put, they got caught faking reads and messed up on their lie to get out of it.

Well, fuck you too. Care to explain any proof you have of this?

Simply put, what you said IS backwards. ISOs are good for general reads, and a complete readthrough of the thread gives you better reads due to context. You, however, said the exact opposite. My explanation is you got caught faking reads and lied about it, rather badly I might add. The only other explanation is you really did this, and are therefore a complete idiot. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

4.) They succumbed to the pressure on them and panicked about being lynched, although at no point were they ever in danger of being lynched. Town would have continued scumhunting, instead all they were worried about was self-preservation. This is in line more with a scum mindset than a town one.

Wut the fuq? "The succumbed to the pressure when there wasn't even pressure" Sorry if this is misrepping, but can you read this to yourself?

First, you obviously misquoted. I'm starting to rethink you not being an idiot, especially with the quote

directly above you

. Second, any vote is pressure. The pressure simply increases as more votes are added. This is why a single vote can be good as pressure to urge discussion. However, you were never in danger of a lynch. Thus you panicking under very little pressure is telling. I might be able to understand it if you were under the same pressure TUA was yesterday, or Jen today, who is currently at L-2. But you started panicking when you were between L-7 and L-5, because let's be honest your wagon never got past L-4. You were NEVER in any real danger of being lynched, and even if you were, there were better ways to handle it, such as trying to get your final reads or thoughts out, or addressing what exactly was wrong with your wagon, all of which are helpful to the town. Instead, you went into full self-preservation mode and mainly tried to placate us and serve us heaping helpings of AtE.

Hey HD bro, you like being scum? More to come later, but in short, does anybody who's played with HD think this seems normal for him? Ordinarily he's way more active and involved, and his go-to strategy as scum is lurk. He certainly isn't lacking time, he actually started hosting a game on another site we play on, so yeah.

Actually, HD just got back from being V/LA. So attempt to cause a mislynch via lying and fallacy is denied.

Join the crowd MM she has been doing the same thing to me as well.

Which is why I posted links to Serra's finished games. To show why I felt Serra was scummy.

Except that was a crap ton of WIFOM, and you know it. I would like to see something more substantial case-wise against Jen, please.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, going to address the stupidity that is the Jen wagon. These are those on the wagon, and their reasons:

Rainbowdash: Jen unvoted TUA and voted for MO. Seriously, that's the only reason. Want proof? Here it is:

UNVOTE: TUA
VOTE: MO

I like TUA's staying in fighting against the lynch.

I would almost be fine quick lynching Jen if thats an option. While TUA is best avaiable lynch, Jen might almost be at the point where she is passing Antilles for scummiest.

The Key reason was added later.

Klick: None. He's never given a reason for being on this wagon, besides sheeping RBD.

MetalOverlord: Because Rach said so? I'm not sure, but MO is scum, so it doesn't matter. They're pushing for a mislynch here.

RachMarie: Gut on Serra. She has yet to supply an actual reason (ie. scumtells) why Jen is scum. Trying to cruise on Serra WIFOM at this point.

TheUnderachivers: Mastin stupidity. Need I say more?

Zdenek: I'm unsure.

DGB is somewhat likely town

KBW voted her for something like 12 hours, so I'm pretty indifferent to this.

But this is solid.

Vote: Jennifer

Please explain.

Ms. Marangal: Mainly falls down to the vote change from TUA to MO. Did ask a good question about the difference between MO fighting lynch and TUA fighting lynch, but that by itself is not a good enough reason to vote someone and put them at L-2. I think she's just mainly offended at what she thinks is Jen misrepping her. A little OMGUSy, but whatever. She by far has the best reason to be on the wagon.

ArcAngel9: I'm not really understanding her reason for voting Jen. Because she didn't defend like you thought she would? I don't know. It's AA9 logic, so I'm done trying to figure it out.

Seriously, this wagon is bad. No one, besides perhaps MM, has a good reason to lynch Jen. If someone has a good case, based on actual scumtells that have not already been addressed, then by all means, let's hear them and let Jen try to rebut them, but if not, this wagon needs to die now before we end up mislynching a townie.

[ArcAngel9]

bulbazak, I already said its more based on meta, what is that you don't understand?

[Bulbazak]

That I can understand a little better, but I still think it's an inadequate reason to put someone at L-1. For me, Jen has read extremely town. And she's right, there's not much else she can do to defend against 8 cases of gut.

[DrippingGoofball]

The speed of this wagon = scum riding a two-for-one fare special.

[ArcAngel9]

That I can understand a little better, but I still think it's an inadequate reason to put someone at L-1. For me, Jen has read extremely town. And she's right, there's not much else she can do to defend against 8 cases of gut.

Show me your reason how she is Town.

[Bulbazak]

Show me your reason how she is Town.

First of all, questions like this:

What specific reads are Nero/Mastin both aligned on and what are those reads?
What specific reads do Nero/Mastin disagree on and what are those reads?
What people do neither Nero or Mastin have a read on?
If one of you has a read on someone and the other has no read on that person, who is the person, who has the read (and what is it), and who has no opinion?

and this:

I can't say anything about why Serra replaced out because I don't know. I'm not sure what "AtE" you're talking about. You only give vague reasons for your read and seems like you're just trying to jump on the popular wagon du jour.
- What specifically about Serra's play did you find not like his town play?
- Also, even assuming I'm your top scum read, who else do you think is scum? Are you calling Antilles a scum read, or are you riding the fence on that one?

Second, her reason for not voting Key is actually good, and she has been very consistent regarding this reason. It is not anti-town at all to give someone the chance to defend themselves. I normally find those who say the opposite to be suspect.

So what else do you have besides refined gut (which is what meta by itself is)?

[ArcAngel9]

I have played a game with Jen, she actually replaced into the game just like how she did in this game. She replacement a character who is almost close to L-1, I actually unvoted so that Jen can get some time to defend herself, and later she changed the whole game. Although as town, we didn't win that game but Jen and I were the survivors till the end.

I seen how she was able to handle herself at L-1 stage and survived thorugh the end of the game. That was the kind of play i have expected from a town Jen.

Check out her meta in OPEN - Friends and Enemies... the kind of game play she can put out....

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4789549

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4789549

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4692205

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4690378

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4686212

Jen has potentional to go strong when she is town, but i don't see that tone here... so i am convinced that she is possible scum. I like her in person and it was hard for me to put her L-1 but i gotta to do what i need to do

[DrippingGoofball]

I don't believe in meta.

[Bulbazak]

How would you expect her to defend herself when there is nothing substantial to defend against? From what I see, she's done all she can at this point, but it's hard to defend against a wagon built on gut. She's called it out. There's nothing else to do. What do you want her to do, shout a lot? Because we've already had several people be abrasive and stuff when their wagons built up, and it didn't help.

Also, this seems similar to what you linked to, so I'm not understanding the problem:

I feel like the biggest challenge this game is going to be fighting against inertia/avoiding falling into the dreaded lazy town lull.

My wagon has moved super fast for vague gut reasons, and no one seems willing to stand behind anything concrete, fearing to be pinned down. And no one on my wagon seems inclined to do the work to see if they're right or if there are better lynches out there, content instead to just park.

So, if I'm the lynch today,

YOU NEED TO WAKE UP

. Go back and look at who was on the Fuzzy wagon and my wagon. Also, stop giving MO a pass.

Actually, I want to hear everyone's opinion on MO who is currently voting for me.

[Bulbazak]

Going to address some stuff that I noticed when going through the ISOs, and also ask a couple pertinent questions.

You guys know Key is scum right?

vote:key

UA WTF??? What is your reasoning.

keys ISO is mainly fluff posting and active lurking. Why are you so defensive here?

This exchange is strange coming from Rach. I can see asking the reasoning behind TUA's vote, but her reaction when asking that question just doesn't match with her supposed zeal to lynch Key.

However...

Ahem I could certainly see a scum team bussing Key... Gives them big Town brownie points....

And furthermore it is not like Key is helping the scum team much. If Nacho was in this game and scum, you bet he would bus Key HARD..

I just watched him in a game I just finishing modding bus his scum bud on D 1 and then go on to win the game....

@ Dashie

How likely do you think it is that at least one scum was on Key's wagon to bus him for town cred?

These make me think that Rach may be scum who bussed Key hard for town cred.

Also, Rach, whatever happened to those reads that you promised us at the beginning of d1?

The previous posts were written by KX, which were scummy(in your opinion, nothing is objective here). The post that I had written, was not scummy by itself, but according to the context it is scummy

Tell me Jennifer, Why was our hydra specifically scummy for doing this but MO is not?

Jen, I'm unsure whether you've addressed this or not, but I'd like an answer please.

So, if I'm the lynch today,

YOU NEED TO WAKE UP

. Go back and look at who was on the Fuzzy wagon and my wagon. Also, stop giving MO a pass.

You do know that Fuzzy was not in this game, right?

[ArcAngel9]

I don't believe in meta.

I do, it works when you use it in right way.

[Rainbowdash]

unvote

Just want to think on something

[Metal Overlord]

Manufactured = faked. Simple English lesson there, and congrats, you got it for free. And again, as town your primary goal should be to scumhunt, not to placate town. All I see from your admitted reasons are scum motives.

You seem to be using the definition meaning to concoct or invent; to fabricate. Weren't you saying you were going to assume I wasn't an idiot? Why would I admit I faked reads? When I used that word, I meant as in to make or produce something. As in, I didn't do it because I thought "oh, I should share what I think" I did if for a specific reason. And weren't you going at me at one point for trying to start something with semantics?

Simply put, what you said IS backwards. ISOs are good for general reads, and a complete readthrough of the thread gives you better reads due to context. You, however, said the exact opposite. My explanation is you got caught faking reads and lied about it, rather badly I might add. The only other explanation is you really did this, and are therefore a complete idiot. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

As I said, fuck you too. That's how I do stuff.

First, you obviously misquoted. I'm starting to rethink you not being an idiot, especially with the quote directly above you. Second, any vote is pressure. The pressure simply increases as more votes are added. This is why a single vote can be good as pressure to urge discussion. However, you were never in danger of a lynch. Thus you panicking under very little pressure is telling. I might be able to understand it if you were under the same pressure TUA was yesterday, or Jen today, who is currently at L-2. But you started panicking when you were between L-7 and L-5, because let's be honest your wagon never got past L-4. You were NEVER in any real danger of being lynched, and even if you were, there were better ways to handle it, such as trying to get your final reads or thoughts out, or addressing what exactly was wrong with your wagon, all of which are helpful to the town. Instead, you went into full self-preservation mode and mainly tried to placate us and serve us heaping helpings of AtE.

Considering I had just

given

my reads, I didn't have any final reads to say. Also, I believe I tried to say what was wrong with it, but nobody was willing to listen, so then I decided to not waste any more time on the game and ragequit. Upon rereading, yeah, I get what you meant. That was total misrep. But check this shit out:

Ok, just finished reading the thread over, will move onto ISOs in a second for more accurate reads

This is were I would have to first have lied about in what order I did things. However, at that point, I had exactly one vote on me, and it's an RVS vote. So yeah, please tell me, were is the supposed pressure I cracked under?

Actually, HD just got back from being V/LA. So attempt to cause a mislynch via lying and fallacy is denied.

Oh cool, so now HD can respond to it himself! In my post I said why I knew he wasn't inactive, so yeah. As for attempting to cause a mislych, first, were is my vote on him? Were are other votes on him? Were am I pushing for him to be lynched? Also, for it being a mislynch, that would be evidence only if I were scum. If your evidence for why a person is scum only works if you assume the person is scum, the only person in a fallacy here is you.

Can you show me where HD is lurking? I have always played with a hyper agressive and usually bulldog with a bone tunneling HD...

Looking over some of his games, I might actually be wrong here. However, certain events I won't divulge due to ongoing game led me to believe such. Even if so though, I would like HD to post a little more.

On the subject of the Jenn lynch, no clue why MS is voting on it, but I was under the impression they were scummy myself. This was because of Serra's play and their vote on me over TUA. However, Bulbazac left something important out when mentioning said post. In that post, they claim they're voting us of TUA because TUA was trying to stay alive, and fighting the lynch. That is one an entirely BS reason. However, I do see what you mean about otherwise a lack of evidence, and it certainly doesn't seem like enough to quicklynch.

[RachMarie]

Well yet another one who goes off base Bulb I think you are town, in fact you are one of my strongest town reads. Are you seriously stating though my questioning of one of the peeps votes on my scumspect as somehow making me scum? Please do clarify that statement cause I know I cant be getting it right. Simple I was trying to peg TUA.

I do know that I also think Titan is town. My other strong town read is them.

Leaning town on Dashie.

I believe Arc is town

Still trying to sort out the TUA/MO mess, though I doubt very much they are scum buds together, may even be a T V T thing going on, though I have not yet ruled out that one of them may be scum.

DDB uggh her play makes my scumdar ping HARD... She is totally avoiding the Jen wagon and votes for Antilles out of the blue then stats an offhanded wagon is growing to fast. Do you really think Serra/ now Jen is town DGB? Also was not fond of the snit fit self vote thingy plus the fact that she seemed to be determined NOT to vote for Key. Her biggest push has seemed to be on TUA. Which I am wondering if he is scum because he seemed to be the counter wagon to Key? I need to go back to D 1 and check the wagons out to be sure.

Antilles hard core lurking bothers me it is really hard to peg someone who wont post and they STILL have not answered my question...

[Bulbazak]

And weren't you going at me at one point for trying to start something with semantics?

Actually, that was Titan. Semantics can be a good way to catch scum. It's called scumslips.

So yeah, please tell me, were is the supposed pressure I cracked under?

Sorry MS, but Cool Story Bros. Lynch me. I want you all to know what it's like to be wrong. GL mafia, but with this lot, you have nothing to fear.

You were at L-7 at the time. There was no danger of being lynched.

As for attempting to cause a mislych, first, were is my vote on him? Were are other votes on him? Were am I pushing for him to be lynched?

You were implying him to be scum without actually voting. This would give you distance should a wagon actually develop and a lynch go through. Asking if anybody thought his play was unusual was your soft push. This is all basic scumhunting stuff, so don't go saying I don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm throwing fallacies around, because I'll continue to catch you in your BS.

[DrippingGoofball]

Do you really think Serra/ now Jen is town DGB?

Yep. I do.

[Bulbazak]

Are you seriously stating though my questioning of one of the peeps votes on my scumspect as somehow making me scum?

No, I just didn't understand the degree of surprise expressed there. It's understandable that you questioned TUA about their motives for voting Key. However, acting as flabbergasted as you did just didn't seem to mesh with your previous pushes for a Key lynch. Again, not saying your scum because of it. Just something strange that I noticed when going back through yours and TUA's ISOs, and I thought it best to bring it out.

Forgot about this:

However, Bulbazac left something important out when mentioning said post. In that post, they claim they're voting us of TUA because TUA was trying to stay alive, and fighting the lynch. That is one an entirely BS reason.

Actually, I did address it when I went over MM's reasons for being on the Jen lynch. I felt that she was right in questioning Jen about it, and that she was the only one who had an actual reason to be on the wagon.

[Ms Marangal]

Do you really think Serra/ now Jen is town DGB?

Yep. I do.

why?

[RachMarie]

yeah I wanna know why too DGB

[DrippingGoofball]

So, if I'm the lynch today, YOU NEED TO WAKE UP. Go back and look at who was on the Fuzzy wagon and my wagon. Also, stop giving MO a pass.

THIS sentence.

[Rainbowdash]

Whoever was the one that apparently likes meta - What is MOs ideas on bussing? There is a stunning amount of ignoring between him and KBW that goes both ways, and newbie scum (KBW) tends to ignore partners.

Can we hold on a Jen lynch for a sec? Really the fact that all my more null-ish ones love it and town reads are looking elsewhere is kinda freaking me out right now even though logically it still looks like a decent vote. its just the fact that if MO is scum Jen is almost for sure town that I dont want to risk losing a hard town read to a lynch if at all possible.

Antilles (which whoever said is chk is right if you check some basic stuff) is also an awesome vote.

We need a voting block of awesome.

DGB, Titan and Bulb sounds like a good spot to start.

@Jen wagon

- Can one of you just jump off for a second. I dont want a lynch quite yet while I figure stuff out.

[Titan]

Prod dodge.

Not sure what Arthur's doing, but I'm in the middle of something. I hope to get back to this game tomorrow, but it might be Thursday.

[Ms Marangal]

What of the AtE nature of that sentence makes the Slot town?