Newbie 1368: Title Pending

[Grimgroove]

So, I tried to quote each person once, from what I consider their most memorable quote so far, and go on from there with general comments. This will probably end up being a wall. But given the low activity here, I don’t think anyone should be complaining about having to read too much.
The quotes are from oldest to newest, so the ordering has nothing to do with my opinion on its authors.

Ravenpaw

The only person I'm familiar with on this player list is Candillian, who I found very easy to read as town.

Ravenpaw doesn’t give me any scumvibes and has gather the most townie-points so far in my book. She responds to a lot of posts, breaking them down in different parts and asking questions, spurring debate. She also does not evade the (admittedly very few) questions in her direction.

This quote is most memorable for me, because the interaction between Candillan and her should prove to be very interesting. From what I’ve seen, she’s not yet convinced on Candillan’s town-leaning. It might be too early for that, but it could also be an indication that Candillan is playing differently compared to before.

LnGrrrR

Actively or non-actively lurking, neither help the town. And sure, they will be prodded, poked etc, but I assume this first day will last more than 24 hours. Of course, some of us are probably more eager to play the game than others. Still, I would rather use my vote to convince lurked to post, or to show those who are absent that they need to get in here.

The above quote is LnGrrrR in a nutshell so far. In this stage I like those spurring others into action, and that’s what LnGrrrR is doing. So far, so good, but I am looking forward to his views on the other players, which he promised to prepare soon. Voting the inactive is a nullread for me, but I like his style.

numberfour

There's nothing for the town to go off of and if we mislynch that's two townies dead at the start of day 2 giving the mafia a free kill anyway.

The above quote is numberfour in a nutshell. At the beginning of this debate, I thought numberfour was leaning town because he was diametrically opposing the IC’s opening post, but now not so much anymore. He’s too stubbornly clinging to the notion of “random lynching” and attacking this idea, but in the end there was actually nobody ever advocating it. This has been repeatedly explained to him, but yet he insists on fighting this imaginery “enemy”. The only ones needing an artificial enemy is scum, and numberfour seems to be intent on devising one. Added bonus of his strategy is that it does not motivate activity. Slight scumread on this guy.

Rachmarie

That being said, we will have a lynch on D 1...

RachMarie, our IC, is I think fairly absent from substantial debates and from the game in general. The vast majority of her posts were IC-memos, and she has shared no reads whatsoever. Maybe she, as an experienced player, is showing restraint in sharing her views, until the point where there’s something more substantial to say and base yourself on, but then again, from an experienced player I expected a more pro-active, seeking approach. RachMarie seems to be more inclined to wait and watch, which is not really consistent with the above quote from her. You don’t get a lynch by waiting and watching. She’s also one of the people who told me I was going into a WIFOM train-of-thought, but I don’t she adequately proved the point of that statement.

Syryana

I will tell you in general I refuse to answer questions that lead me to give you my own interpretation of my playstyle, otherwise known as self-meta. I strongly suggest you head to my wiki and see my playstyle for yourself. I personally think self-meta is awful (if not outright scummy) and will in the future refuse to answer questions that lead me into it. You want to know how I play? You gotta experience it or read my completed games.

He (or she? I see Syryana is often referred to as “she” for some reason) has been my main subject of attention so far, so I have the feeling I shouldn’t add too much more to it. He’s my strongest scumread for the moment, mainly because of the above quote. I find it overly defensive, and the way he consciously avoids appearing to be scummy, gives me a scum-read. Also told me I’m heading to a WIFOM, in my eyes a reasoning that is just a generic line of defense that is hard to break through.

What I do like about him is the way he votes, and how he adds very easy to understand reasons to this vote . It spurs debate and makes it possible for those he votes on to defend themselves in a meaningful way. Where I need long exposés to get my point across, he can keep things simple. I like that.

Archetype

Ok, sorry. Here. I've been a little busy.
I know almost no one here, but I hope I'm not too late for a little RVS
VOTE: Vote: Candillan

Only one post, so not much to go on. The “I know almost no one here, but I hope I’m not too late for a little RVS” sounds very weird to me, and not only because the first part of the sentence has got nothing to do with the second. I don’t see the relevance of the first part either. Why does he think it’s important for us to know that he doesn’t know anyone here? Sounds like he’s already distancing himself from any other player. Why? Slight scumread.

shaboostein

Sorry about that. Just checking in. Ill read the 4 pages tomorrow morning.

One post, one broken promise. Not a good start. Still a nullread, practical things/real life could have gotten in the way.

Candillan

Candy, any reason in particular I'm giving you scumvibes? Or just a "feeling"?

No reason in particular. I mean, I just read you in ISO, and your posts do seem more town than when I read them before, so I dunno.

Gives me a funny feeling, he seems a bit dodgy to me, also because Ravenpaw still seems wary of him. I don’t like the way he apologizes for inactivity, while he has not been inactive at all. And I mainly don’t like the above quote. It feels to me he added LnGrrrR completely randomly to his scumreads, and can’t defend this choice as soon as he’s asked for it. If reading his ISO doesn’t make him suspicious, I don’t see how reading LnGrrR in the thread makes this any different. Scumread.


I think this covers all of you. My main scumreads are thus: Syryana, RachMarie, ArcheType and Candillan. Which is obviously too much, but the daystage is still young so it’s not bad to keep the options open. I obviously welcome any comments to this list from everyone.

I’ll move my vote for the sake of variation, and to rattle RachMarie’s cage, as I expect the most interesting results from this one, because especially as an IC, she can’t afford to ignore it.
UNVOTE: Syryana
VOTE: RachMarie

[Grimgroove]

Edit: My main scumreads are thus: Syryana, RachMarie, numberfour, ArcheType and Candillan.

numberfour had gotten forgotten there

I'm not sure if I'm using the term "scumread" appropriately, but these are the people I'm most looking forward to getting some reactions from. Aside from shaboostein, who should just get active.

[numberfour]

Edit: My main scumreads are thus: Syryana, RachMarie, numberfour, ArcheType and Candillan.

numberfour had gotten forgotten there

I'm not sure if I'm using the term "scumread" appropriately, but these are the people I'm most looking forward to getting some reactions from. Aside from shaboostein, who should just get active.

Isn't saying it's reaction testing going to take away from our reactions?

[LnGrrrR]

@mod, can we get some prods/pokes?

[Candillan]

Candillan

Candy, any reason in particular I'm giving you scumvibes? Or just a "feeling"?

No reason in particular. I mean, I just read you in ISO, and your posts do seem more town than when I read them before, so I dunno.

Gives me a funny feeling, he seems a bit dodgy to me, also because Ravenpaw still seems wary of him. I don’t like the way he apologizes for inactivity, while he has not been inactive at all. And I mainly don’t like the above quote.

I've been a lot less active than I was in my last game, and I was explaining why.
Activity is relative, and I felt as if I wasn't properly pulling my weight as town.

I don't know what Raven thinks of me, but it's perfectly understandable for her to be wary of me. All players should be wary of one another, but her read on me (which I don't recall her ever stating, actually), should not affect your read on me, nor anyone else's.

It feels to me he added LnGrrrR completely randomly to his scumreads, and can’t defend this choice as soon as he’s asked for it. If reading his ISO doesn’t make him suspicious, I don’t see how reading LnGrrR in the thread makes this any different. Scumread.

Yet, later, you say:

My main scumreads are thus: Syryana, RachMarie, ArcheType and Candillan. Which is obviously too much,

but the daystage is still young so it’s not bad to keep the options open.

So how is my suspicion of him any different from your suspicion on others, aside from my reasoning being gut?

Also, this suspicion hadn't just arisen, I had originally felt it a few days ago. Reassessing the origin of my suspicion, I found that it didn't feel as scummy as it had before.

Meanwhile, I'm also feeling scumvibes coming from [LnGrrrR], but I can't put my finger on why. Call it gut. :/

I even admitted that his posts seem more town after rereading them. How does this ring of scum keeping his options open? Closing this many doors to potential lynches isn't something I think scum would do.
It's an early day 1 read. Why are you so critical of that in particular?

[Edosurist]

VC 1.3

Candillan (1)

: Archetype

shaboostein (2)

: Syryana Ravenpaw

Syryana (1)

: RachMarie

RachMarie (1)

: Grimgroove

Not Voting

: numberfour, Candillan, shaboostein, LnGrrRr

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in

(expired on 2013-05-22 17:19:00)

@mod, can we get some prods/pokes?

RachMarie and Archetype are receiving prods.
shaboostein has an additional 24 hours due to queue issues. The listmods and I are aware that he's in two games right now, so it's taken care of. Thanks Grimgroove.

[RachMarie]

Sorry for not posting dudes and dudettes... been swamped.

Liking the discussion though...

Feeling pretty good about Gg as town and he can go in my town pile at this point...

Not afraid to take on and push on the IC is a good sign.

Candi brings up a good point in the we should all be wary of each other at this point, the paranoia about activity level though does seem a bit off... Level of activity is not a scum tell or a town tell. However you do seem a tad preoccupied with the whole wanting to seem town... Will be watching him closely.

Four does need to stop being so stubborn about his point, however this kind of stubbornness is far more likely to come from town than scum in my experience.

More later

[Candillan]

Eh, I'm always concerned about looking town. That's just how I play. If I don't have to convince you all I'm town, then it's much easier to scumhunt.
I find it a lot harder to scumhunt when you have an L-1 bandwagon on you.

[RachMarie]

LOL I have done that many a time...

But then I tend to be an easy wagon... I am not a super aggressive player and I am a big picture person so it takes me a while to sort peeps out.

[Candillan]

Yeah, I'm not an aggressive player either.
I'm also wary of trusting really anyone in the game. Last time I saw someone as supertown, she turned out to be scum.
Meanwhile, I feel like I should post my reads while I have time, even though two players have only posted once.

Ravenpaw

seems to be posting the same way as in the last game I played with her, so I see her as townie.

Numberfour

and

Syryana

seem scummy to me. Syryana because his accusations jump around everywhere, and he doesn't seem to want to commit to a scumread any time soon. Numberfour is moreso null, but his discussion about random lynching and no lynching seemed like an easy way to be seen as contributing to the discussion, and he hasn't actually accused anyone of being scummy aside from a slight fos on LnGrrrR.

I would like to see

Shaboostein

and

Archetype

post more than once. Please. They're both null, slowly descending into the depths of scumhood.

Grimgroove

is leaning town, and I like how he's actually assembling reads and promoting discussion. Can't say I like how many scumreads he has, but that's probably just him being critical of behavior, which is good.

You,

RachMarie

(May I call you Marie for short?), are also leaning town. Call that one gut, but who do you see as scummy?

LnGrrrR

was originally leaning scum for me, but now he's null. I don't even know why I saw/see him as eerily scummy, but I can't shake that feeling. Not the scummiest in this game, though.

Without further adieu,
VOTE: Syryana

[RachMarie]

Feel free to call me Rach

[Grimgroove]

Edit: My main scumreads are thus: Syryana, RachMarie, numberfour, ArcheType and Candillan.

numberfour had gotten forgotten there

I'm not sure if I'm using the term "scumread" appropriately, but these are the people I'm most looking forward to getting some reactions from. Aside from shaboostein, who should just get active.

Isn't saying it's reaction testing going to take away from our reactions?

Everything is reaction testing. I stand behind what I said about you, and my thoughts on your loyalties will depend on how you react to everything in this topic, including to what I say. I don't like this "beside the point"-reaction, for example.

[Grimgroove]

but her read on me (which I don't recall her ever stating, actually), should not affect your read on me, nor anyone else's.

As long as Ravenpaw leans town for me coupled with the fact that she knows how you post as town, it's only natural for me to take her read on you into account. I'm not saying it's what I'll be basing my opinion for you entirely on, but the link between the two of you is something that offers opportunities.

It feels to me he added LnGrrrR completely randomly to his scumreads, and can’t defend this choice as soon as he’s asked for it. If reading his ISO doesn’t make him suspicious, I don’t see how reading LnGrrR in the thread makes this any different. Scumread.

Yet, later, you say:

My main scumreads are thus: Syryana, RachMarie, ArcheType and Candillan. Which is obviously too much,

but the daystage is still young so it’s not bad to keep the options open.

So how is my suspicion of him any different from your suspicion on others, aside from my reasoning being gut?

Also, this suspicion hadn't just arisen, I had originally felt it a few days ago. Reassessing the origin of my suspicion, I found that it didn't feel as scummy as it had before.

Meanwhile, I'm also feeling scumvibes coming from [LnGrrrR], but I can't put my finger on why. Call it gut. :/

Also gut reasoning should have a certain basis that is demonstratable somehow. I find it very odd you can't point out what triggered that gut feeling as soon as you're asked about it. That's why I find there's a difference between my suspicions and yours. I'm willing to be held accountable for them, you just throw them away as soon as you're asked about your reasons.

When you felt a suspicion arising a few days ago, surely you should remember what post/sequence of posts triggered it, or some aura around them or something. Anything concrete really, as an explanation for putting LnGrrrR in that list. You never explained the trigger for your suspicions, you just said they were there, and once asked about it you just said that the suspicions were wrong. What are we to do with this information?

I even admitted that his posts seem more town after rereading them. How does this ring of scum keeping his options open? Closing this many doors to potential lynches isn't something I think scum would do.

This many doors? You consider "one door" (LnGrrrR) "this many"?
And what scum would do or not do, I think this is finally a true WIFOM argument, so not getting into that, but adding LnGrrrR to that list did reek of that particular strategy. You only closed it once you were called out to defend your position.

It's an early day 1 read. Why are you so critical of that in particular?

I'm always critical of opinions that are proclaimed but not properly explained, no matter how early they come. Maybe I'm trying to approach this too rationally, but I don't believe these gut reads come falling out of the sky. There had to be a reason for your gut feeling and I want to know it. If you can't give me a reason, I'm inclined to think you're scum just randomly adding suspects without any real motivation behind it.

[Grimgroove]

Not quite willing to give Four a free pass, but I will need to see more before I suspect him too much... in my experience some of the other sites train peeps to push for NL because they tend to be PR heavy games and much faster games as well, so usually when I see someone pushing for a NL on D1, it is because they came from one of those sites.

Four does need to stop being so stubborn about his point, however this kind of stubbornness is far more likely to come from town than scum in my experience.

@RachMarie: numberfour seems to be getting quite some credit here. I can see the point of both reasonings, but I wonder why you're aiding numberfour particularly in his defense. I don't think he has done much to warrant this. I guess this falls under you not being an aggressive player, but some push on numberfour does not seem like a bad idea to me.

His last reply was extremely unsatisfactory, also compared to RachMarie's and Candillan's.

UNVOTE: RachMarie
VOTE: numberfour

Give us something to work with.

[Syryana]

Candillan, where are these accusations you speak of? Also, why do you find it scummy I don't want to give reads, when the reason I stated I don't want to give reads is that two people haven't posted and those two still haven't posted?

VOTE: Candillan

I'll look at GG's wall later. I'm bloody tired.

[LnGrrrR]

Ok, so I haven't really seen a lot to post on lately that someone else hasn't covered, but here's my current town/scum list, with town at the top and scum at the bottom.

TOWN
Me
Grimgroove (good analysis, active posting)
Ravenpaw (calling people out, asking for analysis)

Rachmarie (quiet, but none of her posts are giving me a scumvibe)
Syrana (votes have been jumpy, but definitely not lurking and responding well)

Numberfour (the whole random lynch thing was bizarre, but I'm not sure if its necessarily scummy)
Candillan (not a lot of scumhunting questions, but decent activity/answers lately)

Archetype (not doing anything but the bare minimum)
Shabbostein (not doing anything but the bare minimum)
SCUM

Hopefully we can get some play from the two missing people. I honestly don't have any strong scum vibes yet, but it might be because Arche and/or Shabbo are scum. I don't feel very strong on any current scum vibe.

[RachMarie]

Keep in mind that both of those slots may or may not be scum, however they may very well get replaced by more active players that can clarify those slots.

[RachMarie]

best right now to focus on those who are posting and are for sure in the game. I have seen too many times someone who posts one or two posts then flakes out, to assume they are scummy.

That being said, we SHOULD push on them more to post. Not posting is anti town as all get out especially this early on. However it is still a nullish tell because both town and scum lurk and both town and scum flake, and both town and scum replace out. So atm I have them as null need MORE.

[Ravenpaw]

This Candi is reminding me of the town-Candi I played with before. He's posting quite transparently and comes across as very genuine.
I like Lngrr's and Grim's reads lists, they basically said what was on my mind too, and that definitely strengthens my town read on them.
Numberfour is pinging my scumdar quite a bit and if I wasn't pressuring Shab atm I'd have my vote on him.

@Numberfour
@Rach

Who do you have as scum/town currently?

[Grimgroove]

Anyone else anxious to know what the title will be, by the way?

[LnGrrrR]

Maybe the title is "Title Pending"

[Candillan]

but her read on me (which I don't recall her ever stating, actually), should not affect your read on me, nor anyone else's.

As long as Ravenpaw leans town for me coupled with the fact that she knows how you post as town, it's only natural for me to take her read on you into account. I'm not saying it's what I'll be basing my opinion for you entirely on, but the link between the two of you is something that offers opportunities.

Fair enough.

It feels to me he added LnGrrrR completely randomly to his scumreads, and can’t defend this choice as soon as he’s asked for it. If reading his ISO doesn’t make him suspicious, I don’t see how reading LnGrrR in the thread makes this any different. Scumread.

Yet, later, you say:

My main scumreads are thus: Syryana, RachMarie, ArcheType and Candillan. Which is obviously too much,

but the daystage is still young so it’s not bad to keep the options open.

So how is my suspicion of him any different from your suspicion on others, aside from my reasoning being gut?

Also, this suspicion hadn't just arisen, I had originally felt it a few days ago. Reassessing the origin of my suspicion, I found that it didn't feel as scummy as it had before.

Meanwhile, I'm also feeling scumvibes coming from [LnGrrrR], but I can't put my finger on why. Call it gut. :/

Also gut reasoning should have a certain basis that is demonstratable somehow. I find it very odd you can't point out what triggered that gut feeling as soon as you're asked about it. That's why I find there's a difference between my suspicions and yours. I'm willing to be held accountable for them, you just throw them away as soon as you're asked about your reasons.

When you felt a suspicion arising a few days ago, surely you should remember what post/sequence of posts triggered it, or some aura around them or something. Anything concrete really, as an explanation for putting LnGrrrR in that list. You never explained the trigger for your suspicions, you just said they were there, and once asked about it you just said that the suspicions were wrong. What are we to do with this information?

Something about the way he posts seemed insincere. I truly can't explain it further than that.

I even admitted that his posts seem more town after rereading them. How does this ring of scum keeping his options open? Closing this many doors to potential lynches isn't something I think scum would do.

This many doors? You consider "one door" (LnGrrrR) "this many"?
And what scum would do or not do, I think this is finally a true WIFOM argument, so not getting into that, but adding LnGrrrR to that list did reek of that particular strategy. You only closed it once you were called out to defend your position.

Yeah, when I was asked to provide reasoning, I went to go quote some posts of his that stood out as scummy. Reading through them again, I didn't find them as insincere/scummy as I previously did.

By "this many", I didn't mean just LnGrrrR. Based on the reads that I gave, I only have two/three scumreads. That'd make it pretty hard for me to 180 later on to push a lynch, no?

It's an early day 1 read. Why are you so critical of that in particular?

I'm always critical of opinions that are proclaimed but not properly explained, no matter how early they come. Maybe I'm trying to approach this too rationally, but I don't believe these gut reads come falling out of the sky. There had to be a reason for your gut feeling and I want to know it. If you can't give me a reason, I'm inclined to think you're scum just randomly adding suspects without any real motivation behind it.

Fair enough.
Personally, when I say gut, it's because there's something about them that I find scummy that I either can't put my finger on or can't put into words. I'm not going to make up some silly argument when that's not the reason I find him scummy.

[Syryana]

Has anyone noticed Candillan and Ravenpaw have posted damn near identical reasons for finding each other town?

Also, you should answer my questions, Candillan.

[Candillan]

Hi Syryana I'm in the process of doing that right now lol one minute

[Candillan]

Candillan, where are these accusations you speak of? Also, why do you find it scummy I don't want to give reads, when the reason I stated I don't want to give reads is that two people haven't posted and those two still haven't posted?

VOTE: Candillan

I'll look at GG's wall later. I'm bloody tired.

I understand why you don't want to give reads yet. I don't understand why your vote keeps jumping around. I don't like that.
Also, your reasoning as to why you vote someone doesn't seem legitimate. Seems like an easy way to be seen as active for little effort.

I also don't like how you seem to be acting as an extra IC. Quite a few of your posts are just explaining things that the IC could explain, or the wiki. Again, it seems to be an easy way to seem active.

Though you may proclaim it as OMGUS, that doesn't make it any better. It's still OMGUS, and it doesn't help at all.

(Not sure why I said accusations, lol.)