Micro 181: Everyone's being watched (Game Over)

Micro Games (9 players or fewer). Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Mon May 27, 2013 7:41 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

I'm not hammering Zionite, he's one of my main townreads together with Horus.
In post 93, Does Bo Know wrote:Actually, I don't know why you're bothered, so let me ask this:

Why does it matter if I rushed to vote you without detailing my reads yet?
Because for all we know you don't have any reads and you're hoping a derphammer will fall? For someone who supposedly just "skimmed" through the topic you seem awfully quick to put someone on the border of a ravine , or it must be that you have very compelling arguments. But seeing how you didn't share those, I guess you don't have any.

I think it's the scummiest thing to happen so far in this topic (closely followed by Wisdom ignoring my questions).

Therefore:
VOTE: Does Bo Know
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Mon May 27, 2013 7:44 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

@Fuzzybuttrernut: Considering you didn't change your vote despite the L-1 and thus keeping the risky situation intact, could you reiterate your case on Zionite? I've ISO'd you, but apart from his pressure vote on a supposed lurker you don't really seem to have got much on him.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Mon May 27, 2013 7:48 pm

Post by fuzzybutternut »

Well, I initially put my vote on him to pressure him and, since then, he's shown me no reason to take it off, so, yeah.
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Mon May 27, 2013 7:49 pm

Post by Horus »

Rach and Grim, thoughts on fuzzy?

Edit: Ninja'd
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." –Jonathan Swift

"Never ignore a gut feeling, but never believe that it's enough." –Robert Heller
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Mon May 27, 2013 8:24 pm

Post by Zionite »

In post 102, fuzzybutternut wrote:Well, I initially put my vote on him to pressure him and, since then, he's shown me no reason to take it off, so, yeah.
You haven't given us reason for the original vote besides pressure despite promising more details.

You haven't shown why my response to your pressure vote is reason to leave it there.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Mon May 27, 2013 8:25 pm

Post by fuzzybutternut »

In post 104, Zionite wrote:
In post 102, fuzzybutternut wrote:Well, I initially put my vote on him to pressure him and, since then, he's shown me no reason to take it off, so, yeah.
You haven't given us reason for the original vote besides pressure despite promising more details.

You haven't shown why my response to your pressure vote is reason to leave it there.
Because you all but freaked out over it. Town doesn't do that.
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Mon May 27, 2013 8:28 pm

Post by Zionite »

Here's the way I see it: you throw a vote on me promising details later.

No details come.

I can either 1) Call you out on it, you say I'm "freaking out" or 2) totally ignore it, you call me scum for ignoring your vote. You haven't shown what a town response would be, so how would I know whether your point is valid or not?
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Mon May 27, 2013 8:30 pm

Post by Zionite »

It's putting the cart before the horse; you say you have a reason to vote me, and then you say my reaction is the reason to vote me.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Mon May 27, 2013 10:31 pm

Post by fuzzybutternut »

Uh, the town response would be to ignore it, Zi.

Why do votes matter to you so much if you're town?
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Mon May 27, 2013 11:59 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 103, Horus wrote:Rach and Grim, thoughts on fuzzy?

Edit: Ninja'd
I find the contrast between the vagueness of his argumentation and the resolve to stick to his vote very striking.

Fuzzy, Wisdom and Does Bo Know are all leaning scum for me.
I'd really like to see more activity from RachMArie, Malakittens and Miss Destroyer. No read is to be had from them if they keep this kind of activity up.
Horus and Zionite are leaning town.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 1:00 am

Post by Malakittens »

I don't really like DBK's L-1 vote. Seemed like he had a case, but never went into details about it. Which is sketchy to me.

I'd probably move my vote there if I didn't already feel as if its in a good spot.

He seems to be freaking out in my opinion.

@Fuzzy:

You seem different this game.. More activity for one and secondly giving out reads.. Is there a reason for this? Did you roll scum?
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 1:20 am

Post by fuzzybutternut »

In post 110, Malakittens wrote:I don't really like DBK's L-1 vote. Seemed like he had a case, but never went into details about it. Which is sketchy to me.

I'd probably move my vote there if I didn't already feel as if its in a good spot.

He seems to be freaking out in my opinion.

@Fuzzy:

You seem different this game.. More activity for one and secondly giving out reads.. Is there a reason for this? Did you roll scum?
No, actually. I thought you were in the game that I explained my hatred for scum roles? *shrug*
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 2:09 am

Post by Grimgroove »

fuzzy is being considered active and giving out reads in this game? Makes me wonder what he must be like in other games.

@Malakittens: If you don't like DBK's L-1 vote, why not make it an L-2 vote by removing your own?

@Anyone on his train: What is your case on Zionite, apart from the "freaking out"? Could you point to where he's "freaking out"? I don't see it.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 2:11 am

Post by Does Bo Know »

110 is bad bad bad

Alright, I'm at a laptop now and it's time to post reads and explanations.

Give me some time.
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 2:16 am

Post by Wisdom »

Yeah, fuzzy is usually even more VI-ish than what he's here.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 2:49 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 81, Grimgroove wrote:.

@Wisdom: What do you think of my vote on you? What do you think of Zionite's cases so far?
(even though my vote no longer is on you)
Why did you ignore these questions?
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 3:27 am

Post by Does Bo Know »

Soooo I lied. I’m doing this catch-up post style, with reads at the end. Feel free to ask questions about those reads if you don’t understand them.

Fuzzy’s right after Horus’s seems off.

...that doesn’t look like scum hopping on a wagon yet but okay.

is bad. Horus is asking the first serious question of the game and Zionite tries to shoot it down. Horus’s vote doesn’t look over-justified at all.

also disagree. Horus doesn’t look like he’s overreacting.

: He’s not flailing. Jesus.

: Wow, that was really quick.

: Eh. Wisdom normally asks questions like that, so I don’t agree with the vote.

and I agree with.

Zionite misses Fuzzy’s point on this page. Fuzzy’s point is, that Zionite’s sole vote on a lurker will not make the lurker post more, as a sole vote isn’t very good pressure.

looks like subtly accusing Fuzzy of being scum. Ugh.

Yeah, but is wrong actually. You can get more votes on a wagon without getting a lynch. Granted, a
sole
vote on a player will not apply the pressure he’s looking for, so I think it is a useless vote, but wagons =/= lynches.

: ^^^

is a good catch-up. Pretty much follows my thought process.

: Dammit Fuzzy, you’re being stubborn. And I thought I had some sort of townread on you.

is more scummy scum-scum posting. He legitimately thinks that his vote on Grimgroove helped pressure him, when it didn’t. Literally, Grim’s posting wasn’t very affected by Zionite’s vote, and Grim got over the vote once he saw it was just because he was lurking. Then he unvotes when given an answer. Which is what I predicted would happen, but then he doesn’t place a vote anywhere, after thinking a sole vote on a player provides pressure? Ugh.

: I don’t like this either. He ignores the vote on him, and instead posts something to Zionite. I feel like Wisdom could be ignoring it because he doesn’t want to “overreact” to Grim.

: Except Zionite is probably just pretending his activity is meaningful. So apparently that’s working to appease you, Grim.

: Not going after Fuzzy because he feels it’ll draw more attention to him? Doing it after the wagon blows over? Scum scum.

And again, don’t see why the rush with the vote is bad. It’s not like I hammered.

: To prevent accidental quickhammers, I either
bold a statement
saying it’s L-1, or make an individual post that clearly states it’s L-1. Soooo if someone still does, it means they aren’t paying that close attention to the game. It’s also telling depending on whether the wagoned player flips scum or not.

UUUGGGHHHH I wanna call this a scum post but it’s Rach, and I can’t read her in any game well ever.

: Bad vote. Normally I’d be fine with that reason from a player that’s active (I was actually looking to draw attention with my L-1 vote), but from Grim, who’s first real game-related post also didn’t contain much explanation
because he was away
...I just don’t like that.

Anyway, here’s why was bad to me: I was going to make details about it, but Mala didn’t think I was. Third player to say something about it, so it gives Mala an option to switch to me. When he says he likes where his vote is already, my gut tells me it could be scum staying on the bigger wagon, hoping a lynch could occur, and if Zionite’s lynch doesn’t happen, he can switch to me. And if the lynch does happen, and Zionite flips town, he can assume I’m scum based on that.

That’s all gut, though. In fact, I’m more confident Mala is town if Zionite flips scum, and I am confident Mala is scum if Zionite flips town.

: Fuzzy’s still VI here, but not scum to me yet. His town play usually consists of thinking he’s scumhunting. And here, he could be thinking he’s scumhunting, but it’s too early to tell. I feel like pursuing Fuzzy won’t be helpful right now.

I still like my Zionite vote.

Town

Horus (actually attempts to get the game going quickly with questions)

Null
(haven’t posted enough for me to read them yet)
RachMarie
Miss Destroyer

Neutral
(have posted enough, but can’t determine alignment yet)
Mala (for the aforementioned 110 theory, would depend on Zionite’s flip.)
Fuzzy (from what I can tell, he isn’t scum right now. And that’s saying something, considering I read him as scum, like, all the time.)
Wisdom (his questions are Wisdom-like, but I can’t determine alignment based on his statements alone.)

Scum

Zionite (pretty sure I outlined this in my catch-up)
Grimgroove (only leaning, but still mentioning him in this pile)

Feel free to ask questions. I’m caught up now, so I should be more active for quite a while.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 3:27 am

Post by Malakittens »

Because I agree where my vote is. As previously stated Zion was coming off forced/fake as hell and he's currently freaking out about the wagon. Which just screams gut-scum to me.

I just don't like DKB hopping onto the wagon with no reason and making it an L-1 with less than 4 pages.
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 3:29 am

Post by Malakittens »

Misrep me more. Ill be back in 15 to show you exactly where the misrep is.
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 3:42 am

Post by Does Bo Know »

Meh, hammers with less than 4 pages suck. L-1...well...

I'm actually unsure how I feel about L-1 in some games. I felt L-1 on Zionite in this case was worth it, because 1.) Zionite is probably scum, and 2.) it made my presence known in this game without being here the whole time. Adds a fresh perspective, doesn't it?

PEdit: If you think it's indicative I'm scum
besides
the tiny gut-scum feeling I got from , feel free to point out the misrep. Otherwise, you're wasting your time.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 4:18 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 117, Malakittens wrote:Because I agree where my vote is. As previously stated Zion was coming off forced/fake as hell and he's currently freaking out about the wagon. Which just screams gut-scum to me.

I just don't like DKB hopping onto the wagon with no reason and making it an L-1 with less than 4 pages.
So the two arguments are:
"he was acting forced/fake"
"he's freaking out"

I don't think those are particlarly strong arguments, they depend very little on what Zionite says and very much on how you choose to interpret it. The same was the case when Zionite and Wisdom attacked Horus a couple of pages earlier, where they said he was "flailing" and "overreacting". It's the exact same argument and it makes just as little sense. Only Horus is being put on top of the town pile, and the opposite happens to Zionite.

With these kinds of "interpretive" arguments you can never prove your point, but as scum I guess you'd be more comfortable using those, with the added bonus that they're almost impossible to defend yourself against. Horus summarized it very aptly in post . "Fakeness" and "freakishness" is mostly in the eye of the beholder.

My take on this game is that we should be looking at those using it as an argument. These also happen to be the three people I said were leaning scum for me: fuzzybutternut, Does Bo Know and Wisdom. Malakittens can now be added to that pile.

@Does Bo Know's latest catch-up post: a lot is to be said about what you said. Props to you for giving us something to work with, but expect more in depth questions and comments later today or tomorrow. I'm not entirely liking it.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 4:37 am

Post by Does Bo Know »

So

I'm using fakeness and freakishness as a scum tell? Can you tell me where I did that?

Also, mind summarizing what you don't like about it? Considering you got irritated when I didn't deliver details immediately (oh look more hypocrisy), I think I get the right to ask this question.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 4:45 am

Post by Malakittens »

Misrep:

"I was going to make details about it, but Mala didn’t think I was."
I don't really like DBK's L-1 vote.
Seemed like he had a case, but never went into details about it.
Which is sketchy to me.
I thought you HAD a case, but it felt off that you didn't post the details right then and there. Your jump felt like a scum hop onto the wagon. Granted it's gut, but as I said I don't like L-1 by page 4 because there's not much information to work off of.

Oh and you are lining up lynches. That's cute. Don't speculate without a flip and not thinking that either Zio or I could be the same alignment.

_____

@Grim:

It's not a strong argument, but it's all I have for now. Please tell me where a stronger argument is when we are barely off Page 55.
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And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 4:54 am

Post by Zionite »

Grim explained it pretty well; there's no way I can defend against an interpretive argument. I can deny it, but I can't prove it wrong because it's subjective. It's awfully convenient for DBK. I still don't like how the details promised with his vote didn't actually exist; he was going to leave it there regardless of my response.

The fact that Malakittens hasn't quoted a single post of mine pointing out what exactly "freaking out" is, or shown me similar behavior from a scum player (or even my own meta, as it has been provided and available), makes it difficult to refute. There's no facts to disprove; just my word against his (hers?). I'd much rather work with verifiable scum tells.

DBK: You say you can't read Rach's meta despite the post 99 being scummy to you. Why is it not possible that my posts seem scummy but you can't read me due to meta? Or are you just fence sitting to pretend to have an opinion on Rach?

Malakittens: If you're reading DBK as scum, why are you on the same wagon as him? Do you think he's bussing?
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Tue May 28, 2013 4:55 am

Post by Does Bo Know »

@Mala:

Okay, so when I didn't post a case immediately, did you start to think I didn't actually have a case? Or do I still have that wrong?

As far as "lining up lynches," in my catch-up post:

"That’s all gut, though. In fact, I’m more confident Mala is town if Zionite flips scum, and I am confident Mala is scum if Zionite flips town."

was supposed to say

"That’s all gut, though. In fact, I’m more confident Mala is town if Zionite flips scum,
than
I am confident Mala is scum if Zionite flips town."

I was gonna tell you that you were misrepping, but I went back to check. So yeah, Malatown/Zionscum is more likely to me than Malascum/Ziontown.
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