Newbie 1378 - Game Over! (Town Wins)

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Post Post #275 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:05 am

Post by Nul »

@crazzy, what is holding you back from voting Lucky? What are your reads at the moment?


Just adding this to the case against Lucky (credit to crazzy):
In post 179, Lucky2u wrote:Moose... I mean Jason - Rude, Huge ego, and intelligent. If he is a scum, I doubt I would be able to tell. He is too good for a day 1 read. If the scum have any intelligence at all they will kill him night 1 and take him out the game since he is clearly the best player.
If he lives though... it might be because he IS the scum.
No read.
Clear setup here by Lucky. He's suggesting that if Jason lives to D2, then he is somehow scum, this does not sound like a town thought process at all. Why would a townie be so concerned about what happens during night instead of scumhunting during day? You can see a lot of posts by Lucky which focuses on game theories, night actions, etc instead of actual scumhunting. This is very scummy. IMO this is just scum Lucky trying to set up a D2 lynch on Jason by telling his partner not to NK Jason.
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Post Post #276 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:43 am

Post by JasonWazza »

To be fair, i think most of the players are setting me up to be "D2 lynch if mafia doesn't kill"
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Post Post #277 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:56 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I dislike you but consider you obvtown.
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Post Post #278 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:22 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 273, JasonWazza wrote:Mastin, why?
I did an iso and I find it pretty dang likely that--regardless of Lucky's alignment--Radiant is still likely to flip scum. I can't really see anything town in Radiant's posting, but I do see plenty of scum therein. Radiant has an overall appearance of a scum mindset; do an iso of Radiant yourself and tell me you disagree.

I'll of course explain in a bit.
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Post Post #279 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:25 am

Post by JasonWazza »

You see i'm not liking all this "i'll explain in a bit" it's coming out way too fucking much
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Post Post #280 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:09 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 279, JasonWazza wrote:You see i'm not liking all this "i'll explain in a bit" it's coming out way too fucking much
Admittedly yes. The first time I had a good reason. I also had a decent (albeit not great) reason the second time.

But all the times after that have mainly been that it takes time to set aside and show, time which until now I lacked.
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Post Post #281 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:19 am

Post by mastin2 »

At Denny's, I order a sampler with a side of fries, 100% of the time. Delicious stuff, absolutely great to eat. My drink can vary, as can whether I have dessert or not, but the point remains, "what the hell is this fluff for?!?" To entertain you, of course. :P And to give you a sample.
In post 21, RadiantCowbells wrote:Ucrit is sort of too scummy to be scum to my sensibilities right now.
In post 35, RadiantCowbells wrote:VOTE: ucriton00

Still looks scummy to me.
In post 36, RadiantCowbells wrote:I read Ucrit's previous games and I don't think the too scummy to be scum defense applies in this situation.
It's a subtle thing, but look at this reversal of opinion. "(1)uct isn't likely to be scum...(2)but wait, he is. (3)And this is why I think that." Basically--Radiant went from thinking that uct couldn't be scum to voting him as scum. Then, AFTER this, he explains the why immediately. This reads to me as him realizing he reversed his opinion and that he needed to cover it up.

This is also backed up by the timing. When Radiant defended uct, uct was under some amount of pressure, so that Radiant could gain town credit if a wagon on uct went through and Radiant defended uct. Then, only after the wagon had died down a bit (but critically, WAS STILL PRESENT! With Radiant's vote, it could have gone further!), Radiant joins in.

As town, I would expect the third post to come second. "Hmm...uctriton can't be scum for being too scummy... *does research* Actually, after having done the research, he COULD be... You know what, screw it, he actually is scum." is much,
much
closer to the town train of thought I'd expect to see. Instead, we got, "uctriton can't be scum for being too scummy...uct is scum!...errm, to explain, I did my research and found my first statement to be wrong."

Paraphrased, of course, but you get the idea.

This sampler should hold you long enough for me to figure out how to type a concise case.
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Post Post #282 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:19 am

Post by Lucky2u »

Question... what happens if we don't reach a consensus by the deadline?
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Post Post #283 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:39 am

Post by mastin2 »

This reads as an excuse to lurk. It also largely doesn't match with Radiant's play. If Radiant were scumhunting, I'd have expected much stronger posting. Instead, we get a lot of filler. Radiant consistently says the same things, that he has no strong scumreads, and that he'll continue lurking.

He does nothing to obtain a strong read, though. He doesn't follow through on his uctriton read at all, merely stating that uctriton is a slight scumread, not even saying why. In fact, he does the opposite of following through--he drops it entirely to OMGUS a player, not even saying if Crazzy is scum.

The first thing resembling content is a massive post entirely dedicated to Lucky2u. It's apparently his strong scumread that he promised, and yet here he calls Lucky town.

When under pressure, Radiant didn't claim, but when Lucky was under pressure, Radiant wanted Lucky to claim--this shows a double-standard. And then, there's his heavy pushing on Mattel, quoted below.
In post 222, RadiantCowbells wrote:I agree Mattel's vote is shit, but I'm not attributing that to being scum right now.
In post 258, RadiantCowbells wrote::|

Mattel, why do you gotta be like this?
In post 267, RadiantCowbells wrote:IMO Jason's actions towards mattel were unnecessary, but he's right in principle.
Sorry. The case when I thought it up was stronger than this. :P (This case is mostly circumstantial evidence, regrettably.) There were more points than this, but I currently can't remember them. I'll post any that I think of.
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Post Post #284 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:43 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 282, Lucky2u wrote:Question... what happens if we don't reach a consensus by the deadline?
A no-lynch, which is pretty much the worst thing which can happen on D1 for a town. Many, MANY towns have lost the game because they failed to obtain the info from a D1 lynch.
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Post Post #285 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:56 pm

Post by mattel »

Does anyone know what the vote count is? I agree that a no lynch would not be wise with such a small group.

Are there any updates on jackyl?
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Post Post #286 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:30 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

i messaged singersigner earlier, no updates as of yet.

Think Jackal either site flaked, or is at the balto meet and i have no idea when that ends.
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Post Post #287 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:32 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

Also i want to bitchslap mastin, it feels like he is pulling punches or scum.

I mean these cases are weak as fuck.
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Post Post #288 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:47 pm

Post by Nul »

In post 281, mastin2 wrote:As town, I would expect the third post to come second. "Hmm...uctriton can't be scum for being too scummy... *does research* Actually, after having done the research, he COULD be... You know what, screw it, he actually is scum." is much, much closer to the town train of thought I'd expect to see. Instead, we got,
"uctriton can't be scum for being too scummy...uct is scum!...errm, to explain, I did my research and found my first statement to be wrong."
Very weak case, and it seems like you are trying to twist the content of Radiant's words. This is how I saw it:

1st post)
"
Uct is too scummy to be scum, especially this early in the game
"
The game had just started, Uct had only posted like 1-2 posts and I think this is what Radiant meant when he said too scummy to be scum at the time.

2nd post)
"
What Uct wrote is still scummy, it's been a bit longer yet all his posts are scummy therefore I'm placing my vote on him.
"
Radiant isn't satisfied with Uct's further posts and places a vote on him because Uct has wrote 5-6 posts, all of which were leaning scum in Radiant's POV.

3rd post)
"
I looked at his meta and Uct doesn't always act this scummy at the start of the game.
"
Does some meta searching to see if Uct always acts this scummy at the start of games, Uct doesn't so Radiant adds this to his case.

In post 283, mastin2 wrote:This reads as an excuse to lurk.
It also largely doesn't match with Radiant's play.
If Radiant were scumhunting, I'd have expected much stronger posting. Instead, we get a lot of filler. Radiant consistently says the same things, that he has no strong scumreads, and that he'll continue lurking.
In what games does he have strong posting? Radiant's meta is consistent with what he says, he even provided the games for you to look up. He has weak, 1 sentence posts for a lot of his townie games, same as this game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26891
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26983

These are all the games I could find which he completed and he was a townie, so please don't say I'm cherry picking games.

In post 283, mastin2 wrote:The first thing resembling content is a massive post entirely dedicated to Lucky2u. It's apparently his strong scumread that he promised, and yet here he calls Lucky town.
The post that you are referring to where Radiant calls Lucky town was a sarcastic remark, after Lucky called Radiant town for the wrong reasons. Read the . It was a joke in reference to Lucky's .

In post 283, mastin2 wrote:He does nothing to obtain a strong read, though. He doesn't follow through on his uctriton read at all, merely stating that uctriton is a slight scumread, not even saying why. In fact, he does the opposite of following through--he drops it entirely to OMGUS a player, not even saying if Crazzy is scum.
Uct had stopped posting for 5+ pages so there wasn't even any material Radiant could follow his scumread on. Invalid point.

In post 283, mastin2 wrote:When under pressure, Radiant didn't claim, but when Lucky was under pressure, Radiant wanted Lucky to claim--this shows a double-standard. And then, there's his heavy pushing on Mattel, quoted below.
Radiant wasn't even under that much pressure, the highest he went to was L-3, there was no reason for him to claim. Lucky's wagon, on the other hand, was on L-1, so obviously Lucky's only option should be to claim or get lynched.

What heavy pushing are you talking about? Radiant is simply annoyed with Mattel's lack of content like we all are (read my posts) and rightfully so I would say.
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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
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Post Post #289 (ISO) » Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:07 am

Post by uctriton00 »

5 pages to read and I just finished catching up in another game, so I need to do a real reread, but if I had to thrown down a vote, it'd be a combination of OMGUS + sheep on a townread Nul + buying mastin's wall.

Vote: RadiantCowbells
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Post Post #290 (ISO) » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:18 am

Post by Lucky2u »

So here we are... deadline and we are very split. Radiant has three votes, and I think I still have three right? If you aren't voting for one of those two, pick one and vote now. We need a lynch!
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Post Post #291 (ISO) » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:20 pm

Post by uctriton00 »

And I have no idea what happened to our mod and we just no-lynched.

You never no-lynch, IMO.
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Post Post #292 (ISO) » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:29 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

@Whomever takes over the game, can we have a deadline extension as we haven't had a VC or a mod in forever, please and thank you
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Post Post #293 (ISO) » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:08 am

Post by uctriton00 »

Assuming we get a mod back and an updated VC and a renewed deadline for Day 1 (because that's BS if we don't get to redo Day 1)

the early ISO still gives me Lucky2u as the first scum and Radiant as the second one. Both their ISOs look reactive; the language is as if they are going with the flow of the game and reacting accordingly (which is how scum play the game).

third possible scum read is mattel. citing "i'm new" doesn't make anyone feel you should get a pass. #251 "i hope you're scum jason" is an unsettling sentence too. Not a scummy sentence, but I mean, it's certainly not a pro town sentence.

Paradigm, eeeh. The 5 posts look like like both good town and good scum. Null read.
Jason is a hard to read belligerent mess that I'm not comfortable lynching today. Null away.
mastin's walls are actually helpful and manufactured, but ICs are objective and hard to read anyway. Policy null for now.

I have a gut town read on Nul for the same reason I've already said about his reasoning
Crazzy's lines of questioning look real and are proactive, giving me the same gut I get from Nul. Town cards to both of these guys.
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Post Post #294 (ISO) » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:59 am

Post by Lucky2u »

In post 293, uctriton00 wrote:
the early ISO still gives me Lucky2u as the first scum and Radiant as the second one. Both their ISOs look reactive; the language is as if they are going with the flow of the game and reacting accordingly (which is how scum play the game).
Here is my major problem with this... I'm leading the wagon on Radiant, so no matter what, you are wrong with your read that I'm one and Radiant is two. If Radiant flips scum, why the hell would his scum partner have led that wagon? If he flips town, I will of course be very guilty looking but I'm willing to take the risk. You are already voting Radiant, but why if he is your number two? Your number 1 is already fighting a wagon, why not join it? Yes I realize that I am saying "Why aren't you voting for me." But I am saying it to point out the flawed logic. One theory on what your doing here: Your scum and you know Radiant isn't so your vote is on him. It's not on me because I'll clearly be lynched next when Radiant flips town, even though I too am town. You are playing a two day plan.

...but that's just a theory. I'm keeping my vote on Radiant and hoping I am wrong. If I'm right, then at least I pointed this out already for people to consider.
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Post Post #295 (ISO) » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:24 pm

Post by uctriton00 »

People bus (as in, throw your partner under the bus) each other all the time in Mafia. Well, not ALL the time, but it happens. I'll give you credit though that in newbie games, I think it's rare. Jason can chime in on this if he wants with his experience.

It doesn't matter to me which person we go for today, I'd fine with both a Lucky vote (you) and a Radiant vote (not you).
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Post Post #296 (ISO) » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:43 pm

Post by uctriton00 »

I will give you this though: Radiant's second half of his ISO is nowhere near as bad as his first. The halfway point is right where Jason calls out Radiant on it.

Here's a great theory: Radiant scum, and Jason being a scum teammate coaching him to be townier?

I'll chew that cud for a bit.
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Post Post #297 (ISO) » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:20 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Ucrit is an idiot and I don't want to continue discussion until we get a votecount and an extension.
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Post Post #298 (ISO) » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:28 pm

Post by uctriton00 »

Well that's not a very nice thing to say to someone
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Post Post #299 (ISO) » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:52 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

In post 295, uctriton00 wrote:People bus (as in, throw your partner under the bus) each other all the time in Mafia. Well, not ALL the time, but it happens. I'll give you credit though that in newbie games, I think it's rare. Jason can chime in on this if he wants with his experience.
Please i bus my partners all the time, if my partner sucks ohhh look a bus *pushes partner*

Seriously though, bussing is very normal

Though if i am being fair, i managed to break at least half of the "Newbie Tells"
uctriton00 wrote:I will give you this though: Radiant's second half of his ISO is nowhere near as bad as his first. The halfway point is right where Jason calls out Radiant on it.

Here's a great theory: Radiant scum, and Jason being a scum teammate coaching him to be townier?

I'll chew that cud for a bit.
Actually that is retarded beyond belief, Neither alignment can be determined from that.

Town coaches town a lot, I'd Coach scum as town because it's a freaking NEWB game, I'd Coach a lot of townies as scum <3, and if we were both scum i'd probably not coach and just push him in front of the bus, and coach him if he survives the impending wagon.

Coaching in a NEWB game is a terrible tell.
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