Newbie 1378 - Game Over! (Town Wins)

[Lucky2u]

I am ashamed of you Judas, you did not do Crowley proud.

[uctriton00]

Mod re-run a votecount to make sure we have a hammer or not

[Lucky2u]

better bold that request

uscum

ucrit

[uctriton00]

This is the IC's job, but I'll give a non-cuss word laden explanation of what we think just happened.

RadiantCowbell claimed to be a doctor (who's ability means they can protect anyone they want at night, and hopefully stop a townie from being killed). Radiant is so sure that Jason is scum, that Radiant killed themself, to prove a moral point.

There are many things wrong with that:
1 - As townies, we can't afford to "give away" our teammates. If you think someone is scum, you don't kill yourself, you should vote the other person. It's counterproductive. What happens if you're wrong? Then you lost yourself, and that person you thought was a scum.

2 - RadiantCowbell has no solid proof on Jason being scum. He is just going off his own theories.

Cops can investigate player roles at night time, and as such, can provide proof of someone's identity by saying the next morning, "hey guys I did an investigation on Player X, and he turned up scum, let's get him!". That's an example of hardcore, undeniable proof.
Doctors can provide proof of townies, by saying "I protected Player Y at night, and nobody died in the middle of the night, so therefore he must be town". (There are things called no-kills, but that's irrelevant to our conversation at the moment).

RadiantCowbell can't have proof for two reasons:
1. He just told us he's a doctor and not a cop
2. There hasn't even been a night phase, so he couldn't even provide proof if he wanted to

Summary:
If RadiantCowbell just indeed killed himself, then he just screwed over the town.
- Killed one of us
- Killed one of our possible Power Roles
- Pointing a scum finger at Jason, who RC can't even prove is scum, any better than anyone (like myself!) coming up with a theory and people crapping all over it

Note, this isn't illegal at all. You can play Mafia any way you want, as long as it is within the rules. You just develop a bad rep and nobody will want to play with you. In fact I just came from a game where our own doctor suicided himself, and then trolled all over the thread claiming they were here to ruin the games, and called everyone on the website an idiot for having no screening process.

[RadiantCowbells]

Cop should check UCrit, if there is one.

Out if you get a guilty. Otherwise, just go ahead and lynch Jason.

[JasonWazza]

RC SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU ALREADY PROVED YOU WERE RETARDED.

[JasonWazza]

Cop/Tracker pick a target at YOUR discrestion.

RC just fucked town up the ass.

[RadiantCowbells]

You know I'm town.

You voted me.

Ergo, you're scum.

You're not doing anything to disprove that.

[JasonWazza]

Actually i still hold the hope you are trolling scum.

I don't have any extra knowledge saying you are town, i had an inkling you were scum, does that make me scum, NO

[RadiantCowbells]

For the town's sake so you don't only have my word for it:

Please read everything Jason has said. Does any of it indicate that he considers me scum? No, he's always talking to me like I'm town.

He did the whole day in fact, which lead me to believe that he had a (justified) townread on me.

Then all of a sudden he says that he thinks I'm scum, but still talks to me like I'm town.

I said something earlier that made him think I might be a PR, so he tries to role fish me by putting me up to L-1.

And then after I self hammer he continues talking to me like I'm town.


Jason is scum. Cop can even waste their invest on him tonight if they want to confirm what they already know.

[RadiantCowbells]

For clarification:

Isolation #3 and #8 do give an inkling that I could be a PR, so he tries to rolefish.

Nowhere in his immediate reaction does it indicate that he thought I was scum.

Compare and contrast reactions from Crowley and Crit with Jason's. It is so obvious that he knew I was town the entire time.

[Lucky2u]

I don't even... I mean... ugh...

Radiant you have no concrete proof that Jason is scum, so you doing this could not just screw up day 1, it could screw up day 2 if people vote for jason and he ends up town. In fact, by demanding it, scum can now vote for jason and say "Well Radiant wanted us too!" and now they have doubt. PLEASE PLEASE be a trolling scum.

[JasonWazza]

PLEASE PLEASE be a trolling scum.

also of course i talk to you as if your town after you hammer, and i didn't talk to you as if you were town when i voted you.

[Lucky2u]

How do you mean?

[uctriton00]

DONT PREDICT THE NEXT GAME ACTION.

And in case anyone missed it, this is likely the towniest thing I've read all game (well other than me, because I love myself)

Predicting/calling "what you'll do next" gives scum a huge advantage in the game.

[mastin2]

Ucrit is an idiot and I don't want to continue discussion until we get a votecount and an extension.

It's little comments like this contributing to the scumread on Radiant.

For Radiant to call uct an idiot, he has to think uctriton is idiot-town pushing his slot, which ignores the potential for uct to be scum.

[mastin2]

.....Da f is this game. So many ATe. I skim through all the shits.

Radiant is town. How is he scum. WTF?

Lucky does nothing ALL GAME. I need to rethink abit about his slot. Too much ATe makes my brain hurts.

Jason, what was the jump wagon shit? If you have some reason spit it out. Actually i think you have. Just say it.

If i have time tomorrow, i will try to reread the thread in more details. If not i will just get information via interacting. Skimming 13 pages is tiring, not to mention reading. Sorry for my coarse language. Its just that this game has too many Ate that it makes my brain hurts. I will say this here:

DONT PREDICT THE NEXT GAME ACTION. A LYNCH WILL GIVE US ALOT OF INFORMATION AND I CAN SAY A SIGNIFCANT AMOUNT OF YOUR READS WILL CHANGE. ESPECIALLY ON DAY ONE WHERE THE SCUM LYNCHING RATE IS ABOUT 10-20% I SUPPOSE? A DAY ONE LYNCH IS FOR INFORMATION.(Although catching scum is very good), but the main purpose frankly, is to give information so that on our second day, we can do our scumhunting with some solid information. And you giving up doing all the ate stuff and i will self-hammer if you all will lynch him tomorrow aren't gonna do shit and give us no information.

GET IT?

Hmm. enomis might be scum in place of Lucky2u.

Anyway, as an IC, I should say that enomis is not entirely correct. I hold a golden rule: "reads to fit the evidence, not evidence to fit the reads", which basically means, don't get confirmation bias. Essentially, my rule is to constantly update your reads when new evidence comes to light. Thus, after a lynch and whatever comes of the night, you have new information to update your reads--however, this does not mean you cannot make predictions. You can make accurate predictions, and sometimes, you only get one chance to do so, dieing via lynch or nightkill. Thus, there is no harm in predicting the future, and in fact, I encourage people to do so--so long as they're willing to leave some room for uncertainty.

Mafia is in part a science, and scientists always speak in terms of uncertainty. "We think this is what's going on, and we're reasonably certain that it's what's going on, because of *evidence*. It could also be *countertheory*, but we feel it isn't because *reasons countertheory is less probable*." And the like. You've probably been exposed to scientific theory, so when making predictions for mafia games, apply that model.

"I'm reasonably certain X is scum, because of *evidence*. X could be town, because of *counterevidence*, however, I feel that X is still scum because *reasons counterevidence are less valid than evidence*. So, please lynch X." is closer to what a prediction should be like.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: uct's teachings

This is the IC's job, but I'll give a non-cuss word laden explanation of what we think just happened.

RadiantCowbell claimed to be a doctor (who's ability means they can protect anyone they want at night, and hopefully stop a townie from being killed). Radiant is so sure that Jason is scum, that Radiant killed themself, to prove a moral point.

There are many things wrong with that:
1 - As townies, we can't afford to "give away" our teammates. If you think someone is scum, you don't kill yourself, you should vote the other person. It's counterproductive. What happens if you're wrong? Then you lost yourself, and that person you thought was a scum.

2 - RadiantCowbell has no solid proof on Jason being scum. He is just going off his own theories.

Cops can investigate player roles at night time, and as such, can provide proof of someone's identity by saying the next morning, "hey guys I did an investigation on Player X, and he turned up scum, let's get him!". That's an example of hardcore, undeniable proof.
Doctors can provide proof of townies, by saying "I protected Player Y at night, and nobody died in the middle of the night, so therefore he must be town". (There are things called no-kills, but that's irrelevant to our conversation at the moment).

RadiantCowbell can't have proof for two reasons:
1. He just told us he's a doctor and not a cop
2. There hasn't even been a night phase, so he couldn't even provide proof if he wanted to

Summary:
If RadiantCowbell just indeed killed himself, then he just screwed over the town.
- Killed one of us
- Killed one of our possible Power Roles
- Pointing a scum finger at Jason, who RC can't even prove is scum, any better than anyone (like myself!) coming up with a theory and people crapping all over it

Note, this isn't illegal at all. You can play Mafia any way you want, as long as it is within the rules. You just develop a bad rep and nobody will want to play with you. In fact I just came from a game where our own doctor suicided himself, and then trolled all over the thread claiming they were here to ruin the games, and called everyone on the website an idiot for having no screening process.

Eh, my wording might be a bit different and I might think of something post-game to add to this, but for now, uct's SE teachings are accurate enough that I don't need to address this as the IC. It's similar enough to what I would say had I gotten here first to say it, albeit with different wording choices. (Again, I'll see if I can flesh it out post-game.)

[Linxie]

Sorry it's taken so long to post, that was a lot of catching up to do. Here are my thoughts so far.

mattel - Don't have much of a read... played the newb in the beginning then changed his style after post #241 and voted Lucky.

Lucky2u - As has been mentioned numerous times, he hasn't really scum hunted, but would scum really be this blatantly scummy? Get a scummy vibe but am unsure.

Nul - Based on scum hunting and posts, getting a towny vibe.

enomis - Replaced and get a towny vibe as he did not jump the RC wagon, and he is scum hunting. Unsure but get a towny vibes.

RadiantCowbells - Claims doc and I believe him. He did post it in post #3 and #8 and people picked it up as scummy. (In all honesty, I think I would have questioned him as well)

JasonWazza - Is scum hunting and some of his posts have gathered results, getting a towny vibe, but that wagon hop raises an eyebrow.

uctriton00 - Noticed a few things I have as well but don't see the Jason/Radiant team. Unsure but get a towny vibe.

mastin2 - Getting a towny vibe for purely personal meta reasons. I played like this in my last game and was town. At first I said a lot, too much I felt, and kept some info to myself in order to keep the heat off me (my role was protector) when out of the blue on D3, as I was typing my post, a bomb was triggered and we went into NP... I was NK before I could post my findings. So while I understand where Mastin is coming from, it is not a good idea to keep quiet. (Although this post isn't really valid since he has posted some of his thoughts)

[Nobody Special]

VOTE COUNT 1.5

Linxie (0) -
mattel (1) -
Lucky2u (2) - Nul, mattel
Nul (0) -
enomis (0) -

RadiantCowbells (5) - Lucky2u, mastin2, uctriton00, JasonWazza, RadiantCowbells

JasonWazza (0) -
uctriton00 (0) -
mastin2 (1) - enomis

Not Voting: Linxie

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Thursday, June 13th at 9:30 pm PDT or in

(expired on 2013-06-14 00:28:33)

[Nobody Special]

Day One has ended.

Flip coming shortly.

[Jackal711]

Many apologies for disappearing like I did. A combination of factors including an internet outage, computer crash, and the death of my grandmother have demanded my attention the past couple weeks.

I am back and able to handle this game again. Flip coming when I find where my game notes are in my backups, unless NS gets to it first.

Also many thanks to NS for stepping in and helping this game happen.

[Nobody Special]

RadiantCowbells, Town Doctor,

has been lynched.

Night One begins now. All night actions are due to Jackal711 by deadline.

Deadline: Monday, June 10th at 10:30 pm PDT which is in (expired on 2013-06-10 22:30:00)

Mod Edit: Redid countdown timer to fit my format

Edit the second: Fixed incorrect date in the text portion of countdown.

[Jackal711]

You all wake up the next morning.. and find someone lying dead in the town square.

Nul

,

Vanilla Townie

was killed Night 1

Day 2 starts now.

VOTE COUNT 2.0

Linxie (0) -
mattel (0) -
Lucky2u (0) -
enomis (0) -
JasonWazza (0) -
uctriton00 (0) -
mastin2 (0) -

Not Voting: Everyone

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is Tuesday, June 25th at 11:00 am PDT or in

(expired on 2013-06-25 11:00:00)

[Lucky2u]

Genius move scum... Now I look even more suspicious because he was my main accuser.