Mini 1438: Gonzo Mafia (Scum Win)

[buldermar]

You've already stated you haven't evaluated his case, so to reevaluate your reads before looking if they have any merit is not well conceived.

I don't believe you've ever pointed out a specific thing I did as townish. As far as I can remember. Just a rather steady insistence I was.

I don't know, but I don't recall you doing anything I at any point in the game thought to be inherently scum motivated.

Remembrance (L-2): I Am Innocent
I Am Innocent (L-2): SE-Asians

Not Voting: I Am Innocent, pirate mollie, buldermar

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is on Sunday, June 16th at 8:00 PM EST.

[Remembrance]

You thought that was enough to invite me into a town block?

[Remembrance]

I think the stuff between him and kuror was scum theatre

Can you point out what makes you think that Mollie? Were there any discrepancies or anything? I also didn't really get the "town don't say this" thing you posted earlier, it didn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate why it made him scummy? Pretty sure I'm guilty of mentioning something similar, but you didn't call me out on it. Not in the same context, but still.

[Remembrance]

I was on fate until you all bailed on it

mollie is a claimed PR so that's not today

Why isn't mollie today just because she's a claimed PR? I don't get that logic at all.

Why did you revise your position on this type of thinking later down the line Buldermar?

[pirate mollie]

I think the stuff between him and kuror was scum theatre

Can you point out what makes you think that Mollie? Were there any discrepancies or anything? I also didn't really get the "town don't say this" thing you posted earlier, it didn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate why it made him scummy? Pretty sure I'm guilty of mentioning something similar, but you didn't call me out on it. Not in the same context, but still.

I don't even understand your line of questioning here. you either have me as town at this point or you don't.

scum theatre is when 2 scum or 1 scum + town go after each other. usually I mean it to be 2 scum unless I clarify that is 1 sided. discrepancies have nothing to do with it.

well I thought about it and I guess I have seen town say it too. it struck me as possibly scummy at the time. for me it really does come down to 1 of you 2. if it is buldey than he has already won the game cos I doubt I will vote him.

[Remembrance]

Then he has.
And there is no point continuing this conversation further. Since he can hammer for the win tomorrow.

VOTE: IaI

I don't think IaI is scum. And I think we just lost. His dissatisfaction and anger at his plans being ignored seems no less genuine than it was originally.

However it means nothing if you won't reconsider Mollie. None of it means anything.

3 months to vote someone I don't think is scum so I can get hammered by PoE.

*sigh*

Oh well. I think Buldermar is the last scum personally. He forgets way to much and it sticks to what he imagines himself to be as scum, someone who doesn't say anything that is necessarily scummy, yet somehow votes wrong when he should vote right. Plausible deniability is a scum tell and Buldermar has excelled at it. He has not pressured people, but has taken on a more fatalistic stance, he reneged on a read that he seemed absolutely sure of. And did it using someone he himself thought was scum along with most of the town and for good reason. And then reveals he had no special reason for the read and has given one of the worst reasons for thinking someone is town I've seen in a while. There is so much there, but he never looks in the right places or concentrates on the right things.

His two hunting contributions for scum hunting are things that someone had pointed out or said before. It doesn't feel right.

Part of me wanted to keep Se-Asians here and just ask him to vote Buldermar and then get IaI to vote Buldermar with me. But I couldn't do that because he just wasn't active enough. So this is it.

[Remembrance]

I wasn't asking those questions because I was suspecting you Mollie (Though, I am suspecting you I do evaluate what you say, I suspect everyone and I will never stop reevaluating my reads, but on a confirmed player, that's just how I am I don't think you're very likely but always possible) but to see from your perspective why those words made IaI scum or how they were scum motivated. I personally thought it might have been a trap, like how Jmo16 sometimes points out "scum slips" he recognizes are false scum slips and then sees if anyone agrees with him to catch another scum going for the easy lynch, he caught TAM with it once. I was hoping that was the case, but I suppose not, and no one bit at it anyway. So I was wondering if you were serious about it and whether it was actually scummy.

[pirate mollie]

Then he has.
And there is no point continuing this conversation further. Since he can hammer for the win tomorrow.

VOTE: IaI

I don't think IaI is scum. And I think we just lost. His dissatisfaction and anger at his plans being ignored seems no less genuine than it was originally.

However it means nothing if you won't reconsider Mollie. None of it means anything.

3 months to vote someone I don't think is scum so I can get hammered by PoE.

*sigh*

Oh well. I think Buldermar is the last scum personally. He forgets way to much and it sticks to what he imagines himself to be as scum, someone who doesn't say anything that is necessarily scummy, yet somehow votes wrong when he should vote right. Plausible deniability is a scum tell and Buldermar has excelled at it. He has not pressured people, but has taken on a more fatalistic stance, he reneged on a read that he seemed absolutely sure of. And did it using someone he himself thought was scum along with most of the town and for good reason. And then reveals he had no special reason for the read and has given one of the worst reasons for thinking someone is town I've seen in a while. There is so much there, but he never looks in the right places or concentrates on the right things.

His two hunting contributions for scum hunting are things that someone had pointed out or said before. It doesn't feel right.

Part of me wanted to keep Se-Asians here and just ask him to vote Buldermar and then get IaI to vote Buldermar with me. But I couldn't do that because he just wasn't active enough. So this is it.

you hammer after asking a question of buldey in which he has had no time to answer

okay if IaI flips you are like confirmed scum

[Remembrance]

The particular reasons why IaI might be scum include:

1. He reneged on town Buldermar to ascend Se-Asians (who town read him). Without disconnecting the logic used to read Buldermar as town.
2. He announced a plan where he (thought) the players in question were town reading him and therefore had an excuse to keep them off the table today.
3. He never doubted himself and ignored that I did not need to bus Kuror0 in the situation I was in. In general he seems to think that I was forced to do so. But that is so far off course and he knows it, yet never reassessed himself and stated he was busy.
4. Asked to have a list of reads presumably to get Buldermar lynched today (Hoping I would give him such a list with Bulder either in 1st or 2nd) and then vote him with me just as I had hoped to since for all intents and purposes I believe Buldermar to be the scummiest player at this point based on gameplay and forgetfulness rather than meta, one thing that makes the meta read difficult for Buldermar is that he was never pressured and read as town far too early. The games I read he was consistently suspected and

nasty about it.

Since he didn't need to be, he instead focused on politeness which seems natural enough. No point pissing people off as either alignment, but this falls in line with his own assessment of his scum play.
5. His arguments are based primarily without context, rather they rarely assess player choice and alternative courses. But he has given plenty of signs of tunneling such as a god forsaken accusation of "day chat" being the reason for interviewing Se-Asians. He's proven he can miss things and he has done so consistently.
6. Meta points to him being town there's no real denying this. He focuses more on placation as scum than town and if there is one thing he hasn't done here it's placate people (until recently), but he never did it when he was initially about to be lynched.

[Remembrance]

IaI, if you're around, I'd appreciate it if you gave your reasons before Majiffy closes the game for the day.

[Remembrance]

you hammer after asking a question of buldey in which he has had no time to answer

okay if IaI flips you are like confirmed scum

It's not like it matters Mollie, Majiffy has denied the extension based on his post in the replacement queue. If you're so adamant about Buldermar being town, it doesn't really matter if I had hammered now or 15 minutes before dead line. And there is no way to secure a lynch on anyone else today except me (who I know is town) since the replacement wouldn't have had time to properly assess things anyway.

[pirate mollie]

IaI, if you're around, I'd appreciate it if you gave your reasons before Majiffy closes the game for the day.

you should have thought about that before you hammered him

stating intent to hammer is not only about obtaining a claim it is about giving posters a chance to post their last thoughts.

if IaI flips scum then you are so dead tomorrow

[pirate mollie]

*flips town

[Majiffy]

By my last vote count, that isn't a hammer. So if I'm wrong someone please explain.

[Remembrance]

I hate you.

[Remembrance]

<3

[Majiffy]

Sorry. I'll go back to not reading my own games.

[pirate mollie]

you have been missing votes all game and the vc is inaccurate if you have updated it

VOTE: rememory

[Remembrance]

VOTE: Buldermar

I explained my vote in my earlier posts. IaI looked happy and relieved that Kuror0 was lynched. This doesn't fit.

Early this day Buldermar immediately sent IaI after me, by asking for his case, when he had seen the information before, it was simply a prompting to get him back onto me. Buldermar has not spent his time wisely this day cycle if he is town, but for scum he has prioritized the right (inconsequential) things. IaI might be scum, It's not inconceivable. The Se-Asians and Mollie town read comes along with a plan that keeps both of them alive, yet conveniently ignores the third player that spared him. His list request and the prioritizing on me going first might be fear that he can't beat Buldermar and wants to see if he can push for his lynch today and then can lynch the more plausible player tomorrow. But there's also other things that don't point this way. Which I've discussed already. It's also not necessarily scum motivated, just him playing in line with the hand he has been dealt.

I think the subtle pushes that Buldermar made between Kuror0 and himself is a lot more likely to be a scum partner thing, than the huge scum theater thing which requires more effort. Kuror0 didn't have time to put that much effort into the game, so why plan a big fight when he didn't have the time for it? While Buldermar called Kuror0 out on the investigation he never voted him for it, but IaI did.

I refuse to believe it is this simple. If I got lynched today IaI would have NOWHERE to go. After pushing my lynch. This isn't the mindset of scum(though part of me hypothesized that he wanted that list to figure out if he could secure a Buldermar lynch). I've seen quite a few players lose because they pushed a lynch and mislynched and then the scum capitalized on the mislynch as "their fault" to get another town to vote the survivor. That's too mundane for me and it's unlikely the correct answer. It settles for IaI, but surprise I'm town and it won't settle for him tomorrow unless he enjoys losing. As the remaining scum it is his priority to survive and he's not doing it by pushing on me without a proper argument or next scape goat on someone he cut himself off from without a proper back up plan.

Buldermar's case for Se-Asians is strange. I've pointed out things that make Se-Asians most likely town, but Buldermar didn't, Nothing in that quote actually points to a town alignment, the information just points to the possibility that he joked around about his fake claim, yet he satisfied himself with it and then used that to town read him (to the point of excluding him as a possibility) he then goes on to compliment him for a "brilliant" plan that he won't elaborate on. It might not be what Se was thinking(or if Se-Asians even had a plan at all), it is essentially an under the table compliment that is untraceable.

This isn't the product of someone who is actually thinking of what they're doing as town. Simply deciding what they need to do to win as scum. He used the logic that he himself disagreed with earlier in the game to renege on his town read of me. He consistently challenged players that had me as scum or suspected me, yet now I learn he had nothing in particular that made him have that belief. Why? What is the purpose of doing that? Why did he invite me to a town block when he had nothing substantial the whole game that warranted that conviction?

I have no idea why you decided (or maybe you misinterpreted) my IaI vote today, but I was being serious about it, I just rolled with it when you said he was hammered, but it has simply been too long and Majiffy posted in the thread. This isn't going to work. If you refuse to vote Buldermar then I'm sunk and will move my vote Back to IaI, but tomorrow I ask you to at least consider my arguments and the possibility that Buldermar might be scum, it will be my first time in mylo/lylo as town and I want to at least be given a chance to figure it out. Buldermar might not even be the last scum, I recognize that potentiality that Buldermar denies, but I can't let those players that already got killed or mislynched see me get voted and then hammered without any chance whatsoever to lynch scum that game day.

The reason I stalled is no secret, I put all of my eggs in one basket and then the cognitive dissonance tuned me out. It was an unpleasant experience and somewhat of an amateur mistake (I even gave a player advice one time about not doing it). And I know this isn't the first time you've seen it happen Mollie. You've seen players become lost and confused after someone they were convinced was scum turned out not to be and then takes forever to reexamine and think about it. This is pretty hard to fake. I also couldn't pursue Buldermar(Meta allayed suspicions, but in game activity turned me back to them) during his absence and nothing IaI was doing seemed to be ultra-scum from my perspective (the only thing that bothered me was that I thought that list and the fact he wanted me to go first was to get Buldermar lynched today, if I didn't select him as scum). IaI doesn't believe me, but he has never believed me this game.

Sorry for the wall. I have been paying attention and I have been thinking. This is what I think.

[macmollie]

UNVOTE: rem

[Remembrance]

LOL

Vote: SE-Asians

HD I love you sometimes

I love it when a beautiful plan comes together.

UNVOTE: se asians

no way in hell are we done with this day

bacde probably scum

Why?

if i told you, you wouldn't believe me

Tell me, I'll believe you. One particular post of bacde stood out to me - can you guess which?

LOL

Vote: SE-Asians

HD I love you sometimes

This one.

This bothers me.

Requesting prod of IaI

I'd like to talk to people.

[I Am Innocent]

Still, we need those lists from Remembrance and Bulder.

I feel like you're trying to set yourself up to push me and call it scummy that I don't have any elaborate list ready knowing that I've been busy with exams, which could only be scum motivated. Could also be that you really just want a list, but it does stand out to me how you were trying to paint me as waffling when I've been quite explicit about the fact that I wanted you lynched yesterday for what I considered a scum slip.

"but it does stand out to me how you were trying to paint me as waffling" The deadline is in 24 hrs and you are the 1) only player not to cast a vote today or 2) make a definitive stance on where you are leaning.

If that's not waffling, I don't know what is.

*********************

Here are my thoughts:

Mollie - Scum investigation on Fate N1/D2, killed my wagon in a critical D4, and then after bulder voted me to make the count 3-3 vs kuror, she followed thru on her hammer of Kuror. That would be two busses, which is totally crazy scum play. Odds of scum are very slim.

SE Asians - Bacde/Fate attacked him to no end D1. D4 he was adamant about being on Kuror's wagon, unshakeable, immovable. When I offered to hop on jon's wagon with him and Remembrance, he did not. That puts his odds at very unlikely to be scum. His vote of me when he was so adamant I was town D4 is off, as was his replace out. But still I think it very unlikely he is scum.

Bulder - had a gut read on him early in the game. Should be noted that his revised plan outted the docs, which is worse than Nacho's plan. Could it have been scum pushing a counter plan to weaken town's chances of getting investigations in? Possibly, though I think scum would be better off following a weaker plan than being the one to draw attention by suggesting it in the first place. N3 is also positive pts in Bulders favor, because he had the chance to knock me off and say he protected Kuror. After all, he was one of the 4 people in my list... His play D4 was very suspect, positives for being adamant about not going after jon but forcing it to me vs kuror. But at one pt when jon started to get some heat/votes, I suggested to him that he follow thru with that by hopping on kuror along with jon, but he never did. Then after Mollie declared the hammer on kuror (one of the two people he wanted dead D4 instead of jon), he voted me to make it 3-3. Last ditch effort to save his companion? The other positive for Bulder is that he had multiple opportunities (early 130 pages) to hammer me but did not. He did state his intent to hammer me later, but thank goodness Mollie unvoted me which seemed to unravel everything. Then there is D5....plays the perfect scum game. See where everyone is leaning (which is Asians and Mollie likely town), then wants to see my accusations against Kuror/Remembrance being scum together.....accusations I had been making since D3!!!! If Bulder is scum, he can follow that plan either way. (If I go first, then he can use the plan to get Remembrance D6, if Remembrance went first and flipped town, well IAI orchestrated it). Very dangerous.

Remembrance. Killed the Fate wagon D1 by unvoting at L-2 after Fate claimed, was on Kuror's list despite screaming town to him, and had HD on his list as a suspect D3. Evidence pts to him being the last scum. He seems very concerned about dying, trying to win me over D5 on why he is town as opposed to trying to prove who is scum. Up until that last post. Not going to lie, based on that last post alone, my gut would say town. I understand why Mollie unvoted. But still, I can't get over the evidence. I know you think it is tunneling, but hey, didn't tunneling get us kuror. I did not let up d3 and especially D4. Look at every vote count D4 and see where my vote is.

With Asians skipping out and no deadline extension apparently,

I think Mollie, that you have to make the call who is today's lynch

. Bulder, Remembrance, and/or I should be the two other votes to ensure the lynch happens. I'd ask you to skim D4 one more time before you do so, and then allow enough time for the lynched player to say any remarks they have before ending this day.

[I Am Innocent]

Remem, what bothers you about that post or string of posts?

[Remembrance]

Coincides with.

The only agenda I have is for you to not make up your own story. Anyone else could have, who actually agreed that Rubicon should die, you didn't. It's a contradiction. No one was going to hammer without a claim, and that just shows you're trying to look town, by saying it that way at all. Do you honestly think if you didn't say anything someone would quick hammer and out themselves as scum? No. They would go by standard procedure.

Bulder, here is the post with my plan. You and Remembrance had votes on Rubicon. I suggested "we are best off keeping Rubicon and Mantis from claiming today"

At this point, there were two votes on Rubicon, you and Remembrance. If I am being lynched today because I didn't specify "Please remove votes on these players" well then I guess I am getting lynched for what I didn't think needed to be spelled out.

This is not what I'm pointing out. I'm pointing out that you said you were going to look into "who pushed Rubi to claim" when, in fact, you were the one asking Rubi to claim.

You claim that you wanted to avoid Rubi claiming.

I ask for you to prove this claim by means of quoting a post in which you either a) ask people to unvote or b) mentioned that you only asked Rubi to claim because Rubi was on L-1.

You did neither - ergo, you're full of shit.

[I Am Innocent]

HOLY carps... I just finished reading the whole game and omg my head hurts.

First about Nacho's plan, at first sight looks good, I will re read the whole set up to make sure there is not a huge catch.

Wisdom and HD looks town to me.

Remember is giving me a pain in the ass. I really don't share most of his actions but i learned the hard way he can be town even playing like that.

SE-Asians is a huge anti-town player. Some of you have excused him saying that it is his normal meta but I seriously don't see anything helpful coming from him so far, so he is my best bet for a lynch today so far, we either get scum or a town playing against his wincon.

Those were the things at the top of my head, from now on my activity should be more regular and stuff. Now to rest a little.

first post and comes in with a weakass push on SE-Asians without a vote to back it up and a ridiculously fency read on Remembrance

It was not a push on him, I wanted to be clear that he is the best lynch option imo for now. I am not voting anybody yet, because now that i am here i want to see things as they come and timing is quite important for me, i would probably have much better reads if i read things as they were happening and not the whole 24 pages all of a sudden. So now is the time to get better reads and there is no need to put down my vote.

About the fency read on Remem.. well yeah, that's how it is for now, it is not something i can help. He does stuff I don't like at all, like sheeping too much and weird changes on his reads and does a lot of AtE but this is the 3rd game I have with him and I have seen him do exactly this as town, so that's why i have a conflicted read. For now i am giving him a slack and the benefit of doubt, but it is only matter of time before can get a solid read on him.

Early kuror posts...HD calls him out for a fency read on remembrance (i'd have to agree...)