Newbie 1395 Game Over

[Marquis]

Want to Lynch

maverick_alpha
Tomie Uzumaki

Can Lynch

Metal Sonic
RachMarie
rhyx/PHENOM

Won't Lynch

arelian
Sakura Hana
Your Troubles Will Cease

No reasoning? Oops, too lazy. Only that as this game progressed these have been just general vibes from each player. More later.

Updated List:

Want to Lynch:

Tomie Uzumaki/GuyInFreezer - Tomie was tunneling YTWC pretty hard and really just trying to act cute and innocent when called out on anything. I still believe this slot was scum, and while GIF is better, a lot of it looks like buddying to me. This is my preferred lynch today, so in case I don't forget at the end of this I'll VOTE: GuyInFreezer right now.
RachMarie - She was inactive because of being sick, but that's not a reason to not be pressured. As IC, she could really be better than this. Sorry, Rach.

Can Lynch:

Metal Sonic - This player can always go either way. I think this is his town meta but he's difficult to read if only to get past his posting style, and the impression I'm getting from him is that he's not posting enough to be helpful but enough to be not inactive. I'm really torn on this one tbh.
rhyx/PHENOM - Activity pls. In retrospect PHENOM also looks like newbtown but I want to see rhyx.
maverick_alpha - His posts are getting better and I think I jumped on him too much for the post style stuff. Also Sakura's point about there being too much support for his lynch is really good. That being said, the beginning of the game is still important despite RVS.

Won't Lynch:

arelian - Doing a lot of reads and activity and stuff. This doesn't necessarily make him town, but we need someone who's willing to generate discussion and activity.
Sakura Hana - Same as arelian but to a lesser extent. In general, nothing particularly scummy that I see so I guess no lynch until at least some suspicion's there.
Your Troubles Will Cease - Too much universal pressure early on and reacted in a town way. Not much else to it, gut feeling is that YTWC is town.

Please note that all of these were done from what I remember, no ISOs yet. I'm lazy, yeah. Whatever. Also keep in mind that I realize that I myself am not posting enough. Hopefully this'll be rectified when Mafia Marathon season is over.

As for me apparently being not firm enough with my thoughts, it's kind of hard to tell who the scum is, especially Day 1.

This post was crap. Sorry, I didn't really think it through; most of it was just my gut supported with bad reasoning. Except for Tomie's slot really.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.09

Marquis - 2 - RachMarie, arelian
RachMarie - 2 - GuyInFreezer, Sakura Hana
GuyInFreezer - 1 - Marquis
maverick_alpha - 1 - Your Troubles Will Cease
Metal Sonic - 1 - maverick_alpha

Not Voting: Metal Sonic, ryhx

Deadline: (expired on 2013-07-13 13:21:49)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[ryhx]

This post I really don't like. Reads as if he's trying to paint Sakura in a negative light by implying she's avoiding a confrontation with him, which seemed unwarranted, he hadn't directly asked Sakura a question and he'd only posted a couple of hours before #166. So I went to look into the timestamps more and Sakura's other posts in the forum starts only 5 mins before #166 is posted, which to call someone out as intentionally avoiding a thread is unjustifiable.

His using not knowing the deadline as an excuse is lousy as the deadline is right up there in the topic title, and that he added to it that he was unused to the newbie game's long deadlines is even more suspect because newbie's two week days is the same as most games on MS, and as the very experienced guy he says he is, he should know.

Last, his WIFOM arguments are terrible because they're WIFOM. As an SE I would think he would know better and I wonder if its some kind of smoke screen intent to confuse newbies.

You don't like my post =/= I am scum

Lousy excuses =/= scum (but teacher, I forgot my homework!)

Terrible arguments =/= scum. and they aren't terrible. Sakura gave a WIFOM argument on me and I gave a WIFOM argument back. its fair because both of them are based on speculation/hypothesis.



This is a newbie game so I'm being nice here if you guys don't know what the correct scumtells are or are not, but perhaps you should get more incriminating evidence against me if you want to push a case? "I forgot my

homework

deadline" does not make me a murderer/mafia

:/[/quote]
You're awfully defensive.

1) How about addressing the actual point instead of picking on the starter line. Obviously people point out posts they don't agree with or 'don't like', but its not like I didn't substantiate why.

2) They may not be automatically scum, but they sure don't inspire town confidence since weak excuses cover up bad reasons.

3) To me WIFOM arguments are bad since they do not prove anything, but you are free to disagree. My point is that they were WIFOM and you agree with that.

Please do educate us what are the absolutely correct and definitive scumtells are. Surely things like scumtells are not subjective and subject to the changing times.


Does anybody else find it odd how Metal Sonic & Marquis went from 'hey you look familiar' to 'oh yeah we know each other from some forum'...?

[Sakura Hana]

I'm not sure about what you mean about MS & Marquis but what I have noticed is that they haven't directly interacted with each other, yet Marquis is reading MS Town and viceversa, and by looking through MS's ISO and ctrl+f Marquis you only find him mentioned 3 times.

[Sakura Hana]

In other words Marquis is reading MS town entirely out of meta (as he's implying in his posts), posible reasoning for this appears in MS's 163, which specifies that they have never played together on the other side, and i see no reason as to why MS puts him in his "Unwilling to Lynch" pile, nor is trying to read his alignment either by questioning him. On Marquis side, he doesn't seem very interested in figuring out MS's alignment either...

This is really bothering me

[ryhx]

@Sakura this is what I was referring to:
Beginning:

I am starting to like Sakura, seems like a good poster(and nice avatar!). Marquis is also a fairly good poster, he seems experienced somehow... do you recognise me?

Like I said earlier, I have only a bit of experience on some other forums.... I think I've seen your name somewhere before. Also, are you even allowed to be in 7 games? o_o

Sometime later:

Metal Sonic will be Metal Sonic
being in a game with him is frustrating because he's always so "I don't care" lol

He's been acting scummy enough this game, though, that you could easily argue "of course that means he isn't scum!" but yeah, WIFOM is always relevant

Your post right there made me feel like viewing him in ISO. No quotes, sorry, but he seems to be doing less scumhunting and voting than usual, and a lot of his posts are fluff and trying to be helpful and trying to find town, which is again unusual for him in terms of content.

This may not make sense for some of you guys, but a lot of it is based on meta arguments... And I'm probably wrong because he's always looked scummy to me but I've never actually seen his scum playstyle.

ignore this post, it was completely irrelevant

We play on other forums besides MafiaScum.

Sometimes I do read through other players' games though, so that would have been an option for me otherwise.

I've never played with Marquis before but I am a well-known player from the site he's from; its most probable that he read my games there instead.

[Sakura Hana]

Ah I see where you're coming from now, that's indeed odd as well, what do you think about what I posted earlier?

[ryhx]

I'm not sure about what you mean about MS & Marquis but what I have noticed is that they haven't directly interacted with each other, yet Marquis is reading MS Town and viceversa, and by looking through MS's ISO and ctrl+f Marquis you only find him mentioned 3 times.

I just took a look.

MS puts 4 people as cannot/unwilling to lynch - Sakura, rach, marquis & arelian.. True he only gives a one line reason about Marquis many posts back (good poster), but the same can be said of MS on arelian. The town read on rach has even less justification.

Marquis hasn't declared MS town yet, only that his meta implies that MS' posting isn't usually scummy.

I don't think either of those really point to them being a scum team. May be overreading it.

[Marquis]

Just want to clarify something about this before it spins out of control.

I don't explicitly read MS as town. I don't read him as scum. I can't tell at the moment because a lot of my interpretations of his actions are are based on his town meta and it's hard for me to get around that since it seems like the only way I can try to read him effectively.

As for knowing each other, I knew which game I had seen him in before in our forum, where there were 2 opposite bandwagons and he got lynched; he was "scummier" because of "flailing", "overusing WIFOM arguments", and "not helping the town at all with his bad arguments" of alignment and he flipped Town Role Cop. I didn't want to let him know I knew about that game, though, so I could see how he acted now, but the info slipped early on anyway. As for him knowing me, I've restarted being active on the mafia channels there so I'm fairly sure he remembers me now.

There's a deadline extension, but really all that means is that it gives people a chance to get back in here if they've been inactive or subbed in. Meaning, deciding on a lynch needs to happen pretty soon (this is obvious, but some people have trouble with that for some reason). I want a GiF or Rach lynch today because of Tomie's behavior and Rach's inactivity, while not necessarily bad, would help in the case of her flip to make connections to a partner on the chance she's scum (mentioning her, etc.).

I might also want a maverick lynch, depending on whether I can decide if it's just an easy mislynch with scum support or actually scum with the partner "reading" him as scum also.

[Sakura Hana]

So nothing GiF has done so far has redeemed the slot for you Marquis?

[Marquis]

So nothing GiF has done so far has redeemed the slot for you Marquis?

I'm not going to excuse the actions of the past player entirely just because the new player sounds better.

You latest posts seemed off somehow. Doing an ISO of you, brb.

[Sakura Hana]

Obviously the slot doesn't change with the replacement, but you need to look at both Tomie's and GiF's actions as a whole, the only difference is that GiF can't answer any questions about Tomie's behavior.

[Your Troubles Will Cease]

I want a GiF or Rach lynch today because of Tomie's behavior and Rach's inactivity, while not necessarily bad, would help in the case of her flip to make connections to a partner on the chance she's scum (mentioning her, etc.).

I wouldn't go for either of these today. I know this is a switch on my Tomie/GiF read, but I think GiF has more pro-town potential, so I'm moving him back to null and giving him a fresh start.

Lynching Rach would be a policy lynch, which in this situation is terribad. There would be no useful information gleaned, as far as I can tell. We're better off lynching Maverick or Metal Sonic today, because they would provide more STUFF for us to look at tomorrow regardless of flip.

[ryhx]

Want to lynch:

Rach

- Hasn't posted anything of game substance, hasnt't even moved her vote off baconman (now marquis) from rvs. Unless she comes back with those reads as promised (substantial ones), I don't want to take the risk that she will prod dodge with zero-content posts to the end.

Can lynch:

maverick

- Not totally convinced. Later posts have been better, but the bandwagoning on troubles to L-1 was really bad and it isn't enough to redeem him.

Marquis

- Townie read initially with fell off with later posts. Marquis could you please explain why you think arelian's alignment reads are shit? especially since you agree that maverick could be scum.

Metal Sonic

- Reasons previously stated, not convinced he's town, but neither convinced he's scum

troubles

- Thought his reaction to being almost lynched was pretty town, but his confidence at the beginning of the game about who is town struck me as odd.

Not lynching today:

arelian

: not saying he's town but won't lynch today.

GiF

: I didn't think tomie was scum and don't know how to read GiF but he's here by virture of tomie.

Sakura

- Everyone thinks she's town, but reading through I had the impression that she managed to jump onto every bandwagon. But this may be also be because she's been the most active and so has been part of most things. I thought her defense of maverick was good, not something scum would point out, unless maverick is one of the pair. The way Sakura jumped on Rach was odd as well, Rach's inactivity had been pointed out many times before that.
tl;dr: Sakura is latching onto everything, I haven't decided what alignment is that, but based on post-count I am reluctant to say lynch until I decide.

Sorry for the lack of organization/stream of consciousness. Am desperately trying to bang this out before I sleep.

VOTE: Rach-Marie

[Sakura Hana]

^
That's L-2 btw, just thought i'd point that out, so we don't get any quick/accidental hammers

[Your Troubles Will Cease]

troubles

- his confidence at the beginning of the game about who is town struck me as odd.

It's a habit I picked up - bold statements tend to move the game forwards.

Like this one: I think ryhx is probably town because his read list is both different to mine yet still makes sense.

L-2 isn't really dangerous in a newbie game as long as people know not to quickhammer.

DON'T FUCKING QUICKHAMMER.

[ryhx]

Lynching Rach would be a policy lynch, which in this situation is terribad. There would be no useful information gleaned, as far as I can tell. We're better off lynching Maverick or Metal Sonic today, because they would provide more STUFF for us to look at tomorrow regardless of flip.

I would agree with you if I thought there was potential for Rach/Rach's slot to post more and give more information. So unless in the next few days she comes back with those reads or something major has changed in terms of scum being identified, I'm fine with advocating her lynch.

[Sakura Hana]

Sorry troubles, but i've seen someone jump from L-2 to Lynch in a matter of an hour (or less), so i'm quite wary about it now.

[Marquis]

Warning!~ selective quoting incoming; specifically the things relating to the very bottom post that I really didn't like.

And you gotta get used to the fact that each and every one of your posts is going to be analysed, even your random votes and reasons.

This was in response to something PHENOM said. She's being helpful, sure, but I'm getting the impression that she's not (at that time) actually seeing any scumreads on him despite this. A town player imo would be more suspicious of a player if they felt the need to say "be careful about what you say" Not a strong case of scum, but it strikes me as off.

Any reason you are asking me a question, yet you are voting someone else? At this point I'm not in danger of getting lynched, what gives?
VOTE: arelian

Questioning someone is not the same as scumreading them.

VOTE: Sakura Hana

Serious vote.

I am aware of that, but the whole point of pressuring someone during RVS is so they answer your questions, and i assume his vote is still RVS, considering he moved it to someone only after i said it was bad that there wasn't anyone with more than 1 vote.

P-Edit: that's another good point right there Phenom.

Why would you tell someone that your vote is for pressure unless they're inactive? If you really suspected them wouldn't you just vote them and tell them why it's scummy? And your vote on arelian here isn't even a pressure vote, it's a vote because you suspected arelian for questioning people while voting you?...

Last line is much too passive in comparison to how she's jumping on cases/points that other players have made, and appears to be buddying PHENOM, even. Also it's after this point that YTWC gets pretty close to a lynch despite how Troubles' comment in response to Sakura is very town.

For pressure yes, until i get a scumread i can leave my vote on until said scumread poofs.

Again, overexplaining the point of her vote/actions as relating to pressure, when she could have much more easily responded with a simple statement about how she found them scummy. I find that as scum I constantly need to justify my votes to the point where it becomes too much- and Sakura's atm seem like too much.

And again, when you make a pressure vote on someone, if you announce to the world that it's for pressure it's not helping anyone- only needlessly reminding people that you're not committing to the vote. :/

UNVOTE:
I don't think a Hammer this early will benefit town at all.

This post sounds like an act. It's normally considered town to not want to hammer someone, and of course Sakura knows this. YTWC wasn't in any danger of getting hammered unless one of the voters managed to finally convince another player/an inactive to hop on to the vote. I can very easily see her, as scum, wanting to get easy towncred for being the first one to unvote- even after she and Tomie had supposedly strong scumreads on YTWC.

Do you have any reason for rushing the end of day?

Again, sounds like a contrived by-the-book version of town.

I agree that forcing scum to take a stand is a good way to get information, which is why I also like to encourage people to vote during RVS instead of laying low and not placing votes.

This was the whole post. It's really just empty words without much content. As a whole, it sounds artificial, particularly because Sakura felt the need to add such phrases as "I agree that" and "which is why I also like to", when simply giving a blunter and less elaborate statement would have sounded actually more townlike and genuine.

Ah I see where you're coming from now, that's indeed odd as well, what do you think about what I posted earlier?

"Ah I see where you're coming from", "that's indeed odd as well", then asks a question about a previous post to seemingly generate discussion instead of committing to anything herself. I know I just pretty much quoted the whole post, but all of it... I didn't like it at all.

I've used this phrase before: scum diplomacy. That's when scum makes itself look polite and insightful in order to seem town, when really a lot of it is unnecessary fluff added on. She's posting a lot and specifically calling out the inactives, sure, but does she really need to be? Right now, Sakura looks like she's trying to do it all, and it all looks fake.

Whereas rhyx's analysis of me and MS sounds and looks genuinely town, Sakura is like the person who has to add on to every comment a "hmmm" and "oh I see" and "that's interesting"; in the case of me and MS, she's taking that one detail from rhyx after a quick "I don't know what you mean" and then in the next post, trying too hard to derive a scumread from it. Again. It's too contrived.

This is my biggest scumread. VOTE: Sakura Hana If you're not seeing what I see here, look at her ISO for yourself. It's really

too

much.

[Marquis]

^
That's L-2 btw, just thought i'd point that out, so we don't get any quick/accidental hammers

Sorry troubles, but i've seen someone jump from L-2 to Lynch in a matter of an hour (or less), so i'm quite wary about it now.

Scum again. Town would actually provide genuine content here with their own additional reasoning for it, and she's overposting when she doesn't need to. In other words, Sakura's acting too stereotypically town for me to see her as actual town.

[Marquis]

...Thing is, she's probably not going to get lynched today anyway.

Sakura, explain why you voted Rach besides inactivity; in a previous post, you said you had some sort of reasoning for later? Maybe I missed it, but it just looks like an attempted activity-related policy lynch from you atm.

[GuyInFreezer]

^
That's L-2 btw, just thought i'd point that out, so we don't get any quick/accidental hammers

Sorry troubles, but i've seen someone jump from L-2 to Lynch in a matter of an hour (or less), so i'm quite wary about it now.

Scum again. Town would actually provide genuine content here with their own additional reasoning for it, and she's overposting when she doesn't need to. In other words, Sakura's acting too stereotypically town for me to see her as actual town.

Your two points literally contradict each other.
You say that town would put his/her own (additional) reasoning, yet you call Sakura scum for "overposting?"

[Marquis]

@Troubles: Maverick lynch would be in theory okay but considering that, not desired (if it's something that everyone can get behind, it's probably not going to help us find scum). I wouldn't want a MS lynch since now I feel he's town for Sakura's tunneling of him earlier on.

@rhyx: I was referring to arelian's read on me, since I'm town. No, I'm not going to be arrogant like some players and expect you to assume/know that, but I'm pretty sure if you're aligned with the town you can see why being accused as scum is frustrating.

rhyx townread for actually catching Sakura's bandwagons and making his own good reads and because PHENOM sounded like new town player rather than scum (ISOs guys, do them). if you want me to simplify that last sentence, rhyx is town because the things he's thinknig and saying sound

real

.

P-edit: @GiF, I'm calling Sakura scum for overposting with empty/fake-sounding content. Is making two short posts about "town should not hammer so quickly!" and "I'm worried because I've seen people get hammered early in other games before" really adding your

own

additional reasoning? Those ideas are a given by now. It's like saying "You shouldn't murder people!" and "I'm worried because I know people have murdered people before!" (crappy analogy off the top of my head). Town posts would add more real thoughts.

That post of mine's not one of the stronger cases against her, since it's pretty much me elaborating that she sounds fake, but when you look at people like arelian and rhyx, you can tell the difference in what they're saying in that it looks, again for lack of a better word, genuine.

[Sakura Hana]

And you gotta get used to the fact that each and every one of your posts is going to be analysed, even your random votes and reasons.

This was in response to something PHENOM said. She's being helpful, sure, but I'm getting the impression that she's not (at that time) actually seeing any scumreads on him despite this. A town player imo would be more suspicious of a player if they felt the need to say "be careful about what you say" Not a strong case of scum, but it strikes me as off.

I can see how that could be seen as couching, interesting point.

Any reason you are asking me a question, yet you are voting someone else? At this point I'm not in danger of getting lynched, what gives?
VOTE: arelian

Questioning someone is not the same as scumreading them.

VOTE: Sakura Hana

Serious vote.

I am aware of that, but the whole point of pressuring someone during RVS is so they answer your questions, and i assume his vote is still RVS, considering he moved it to someone only after i said it was bad that there wasn't anyone with more than 1 vote.

P-Edit: that's another good point right there Phenom.

Why would you tell someone that your vote is for pressure unless they're inactive? If you really suspected them wouldn't you just vote them and tell them why it's scummy? And your vote on arelian here isn't even a pressure vote, it's a vote because you suspected arelian for questioning people while voting you?...

Why is it ok to tell someone my vote is for pressure to begin with? obviously I was going after something else here, I did suspect arelian because he questions someone else and votes me for no apparent reason.

Last line is much too passive in comparison to how she's jumping on cases/points that other players have made, and appears to be buddying PHENOM, even. Also it's after this point that YTWC gets pretty close to a lynch despite how Troubles' comment in response to Sakura is very town.

I point out good points where i see them, don't see how that's buddying?

For pressure yes, until i get a scumread i can leave my vote on until said scumread poofs.

Again, overexplaining the point of her vote/actions as relating to pressure, when she could have much more easily responded with a simple statement about how she found them scummy. I find that as scum I constantly need to justify my votes to the point where it becomes too much- and Sakura's atm seem like too much.

And again, when you make a pressure vote on someone, if you announce to the world that it's for pressure it's not helping anyone- only needlessly reminding people that you're not committing to the vote. :/

Yet you said earlier that it's ok to announce it's a pressure vote when people are lurking?

Contradiction

UNVOTE:
I don't think a Hammer this early will benefit town at all.

This post sounds like an act. It's normally considered town to not want to hammer someone, and of course Sakura knows this.

YTWC wasn't in any danger of getting hammered

unless one of the voters managed to finally convince another player/an inactive to hop on to the vote. I can very easily see her, as scum, wanting to get easy towncred for being the first one to unvote- even after she and Tomie had supposedly strong scumreads on YTWC.

An intent to hammer is not a danger of getting hammered?

Contradiction

Do you have any reason for rushing the end of day?

Again, sounds like a contrived by-the-book version of town.

That's painting me as scummy not figuring out my alignment.

I agree that forcing scum to take a stand is a good way to get information, which is why I also like to encourage people to vote during RVS instead of laying low and not placing votes.

This was the whole post. It's really just empty words without much content. As a whole, it sounds artificial, particularly because Sakura felt the need to add such phrases as "I agree that" and "which is why I also like to", when simply giving a blunter and less elaborate statement would have sounded actually more townlike and genuine.

I don't see your point?, I've always and always will encourage people to take stances

Ah I see where you're coming from now, that's indeed odd as well, what do you think about what I posted earlier?

"Ah I see where you're coming from", "that's indeed odd as well", then asks a question about a previous post to seemingly generate discussion instead of committing to anything herself. I know I just pretty much quoted the whole post, but all of it... I didn't like it at all.

Well then tell me which dictionary should I use my words from then since apparently every word in the dictionary is scummy to you, again, not trying to figure out my alignment but assigning me one

I've used this phrase before: scum diplomacy. That's when scum makes itself look polite and insightful in order to seem town, when really a lot of it is unnecessary fluff added on.

She's posting a lot and specifically calling out the inactives, sure, but does she really need to be?

Right now, Sakura looks like she's trying to do it all, and it all looks fake.

Why wouldn't i do it? is a better question, i rather give scum less places to hide.

Whereas rhyx's analysis of me and MS sounds and looks genuinely town, Sakura is like the person who has to add on to every comment a "hmmm" and "oh I see" and "that's interesting"; in the case of me and MS, she's taking that one detail from rhyx after a quick "I don't know what you mean" and then in the next post, trying too hard to derive a scumread from it. Again. It's too contrived.

This is my biggest scumread. VOTE: Sakura Hana If you're not seeing what I see here, look at her ISO for yourself. It's really

too

much.

Your whole case contradicts itself, Try again!

[Sakura Hana]

...Thing is, she's probably not going to get lynched today anyway.

Sakura, explain why you voted Rach besides inactivity; in a previous post, you said you had some sort of reasoning for later? Maybe I missed it, but it just looks like an attempted activity-related policy lynch from you atm.

Oh, i missed this question earlier...
I'm not going to give my reasonings yet, mostly because the only that should be interested is Rach not you, or do you have any reason for being worried about her?