Mini Normal 1460 - Normalville Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Baezu]

I thought slandaar said there were 3. Also I thought that in 13 players there's always 3. No?

[Baezu]

I've only played mafia IRL and that's how we always did the scenarios (for balance etc)

[Slandaar]

The other good thing about having a joat and a tracker

What?

[Baezu]

You said that the 3rd town pr would probably be tracker no?

[Elyse]

@Slandaar
Where are you going with this? I'd have to claim when I'm brought up to L-1, am investigated, or mass claim.

[Slandaar]

am investigated

And that means the cop claimed because you didn't claim Miller.

So, what benefits does breadceumbing have over claiming Miller?

[Elyse]

It avoids pointless discussion at the beginning of the game about my miller status.

And even if claiming is optimal play, why am I scum for not playing optimally?

[ac1983fan]

Vote Count

RedDragon (2) - chernobylcitybus, Nachopappa (L-4)

Baezu (1) - Elyse
PeregrineV (1) - Grimgroove

Not Voting (7) - PeregrineV, Slandaar, Ztife, Red Dragon, Miss Stranger, SunnyDays, Baezu

With 11 players alive it takes 6 votes to lynch or no lynch. Deadline is in (expired on 2013-07-22 09:00:00).

Miss Stranger is V/LA until 7/13.

[Slandaar]

It avoids pointless discussion at the beginning of the game about my miller status.

And even if claiming is optimal play, why am I scum for not playing optimally?

There isn't any discussion to ever be had when you claim early;
You are either town and a miller or scum gambitting the only way to work it out is judge you based on your play.

OK lets run through some things

You must have known it is important to cover yourself incase a cop investigates you hence the breadcrumb.The breadcrumb itself is useless absolutely useless unless there is a cop in the setup who investigates you. During any other situation Massclaim or Wagoned JOAT is your claim, Miller is not going to do anything. Breadcrumbing miller is very weak because it does not lock you into a ROLE Joat is your ROLE Miller is not.

However now lets think about it from your perspective as scum makes a lot more sense breadcrumb miller, if there is a cop, you show it and voila! maybe it works maybe it doesn't but can't hurt right?

So, what do I actually think at present...

I do not like either claim, however, the 2 actually work in tandem quite well, in fact the setup spec being a ScumRoleblocker, an odd night cop a Miller JOAT and then another PR which I have strong inclinations will be an even night something (watcher my guess) makes a lot of sense.

And... considering noone has counterclaimed either of you, I am going to go with both town.

So, who is actually scum...

VOTE: Red Dragon

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Red Dragon

(L-2)

[Grimgroove]

Should we also start agreeing on who should be targeted by Elyse? How are these tests normally done?

[Baezu]

VOTE: Red Dragon

I probably should have done this a long time ago

[Nachopappa]

Prod dodge

Didn't have consistent access yesterday, but will catch up today

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Red Dragon

I probably should have done this a long time ago

This is

L-1

.

Normally I'd say it's too soon for that, but meh, this game needs a boost.

But Baezu, Always, Always make it clear when your vote is an L-1 to avoid any derphammering.

Mod Edit: Removing unauthorized use of the mod's color.

[Grimgroove]

Should we also start agreeing on who should be targeted by Elyse? How are these tests normally done?

Actually no, given this, it's way too soon for L-1.

UNVOTE:

[Red Dragon]

Let us assume you are a miller, you breadcrumbed as such, why did you decide to do that?

millers sorta do that

Even if we assume that one of us is scum there are still 2 more scum in the rest of the people on this thread.

What gave you the idea there's 3 bad guys?

standard. Almost every game has a 3-man scum team.

[Nachopappa]

OK, caught up for the most part. Grimgroove reads pretty town for these posts:

I believe Elyse.

Let's all vote Peregrine now.

Or Ztife.

Both are fine by me.

Maybe even Red Dragon, but a bit meh'ish about that one.

Should we also start agreeing on who should be targeted by Elyse? How are these tests normally done?

VOTE: Red Dragon
I probably should have done this a long time ago

This is

L-1

.

Normally I'd say it's too soon for that, but meh, this game needs a boost.

But Baezu, Always, Always make it clear when your vote is an L-1 to avoid any derphammering.

Red Dragon hasn't come back and defended himself the way I'd expect him to as town, especially with the recent pressure. It's such a whole different Red Dragon we are seeing D2. That worries me immensely.

Elyse is pretty town IMO for her reactions lately.

Baezu could be a role cop I guess. Her mistake on who she investigated seems legit though.

Have any of you read Chernobyl's isos lately? I can't put my finger on why I feel like she is present, but lurky and scummy.

Miss Stranger's catch-up post is pretty town. I never liked BP though.

Slandaar's mass claim suggestion is kinda town IMO.

Ztife isn't doing anything for me on D2, and right now I could see a Ztife-RD combo. His post below is scummy as hell IMO.

Too lazy to quote most because I think Grim's case is full of BS, but a couple of replies;

1. I never tunneled solely on Ztife.
2. My comments are not nitpicky. They are statements about the essence of his posts, not about choices of words.
3. If you feel I put everything Ztife said in a bad light, feel free to put it under a good light.

I know its hard for your ego to see it but contrary to your beliefs, your cases are word-centric.
What is the "essence" of your case on me? Why would you not be able to properly bring your reasoning across in a short paragraph about my scumminess?

As I see it, the case is basically "Ztife's weak case on BP and does nothing else, Ztife doesn't pay attention to the game enough, Ztife asks 'questions with no substances', Ztife's vote on nacho is fishy"

My case on BP was not about the game theory, but about why he started the whole NL thing to begin with. The case is not about our views on NL, its about BP's wavering views on it.

What's tunneling? How do you define tunneling? What defines me tunneling on BP? How does that makes me scum? Does mentioning BP in more than X amount of posts constitutes tunneling? I gave comments about low activity from the major wagons, and I don't think they put much thought into their posts, and they are not incredibly scummy to me.

This is in contrast with BP's "LETS NL, OH NO WAIT, I AGREE WITH YOU, I THINK I"LL LYNCH". There's plenty of analysis about this, but I'll just skip it for now because his slot issin't even posting anyway.

About reading, how do you define active? How do you define reading the game sufficiently? Do I have to make notes?
I skimmed through some parts, and I just happen to miss out yours, and therefore I asked double questions. Does that makes me scummy? For someone who is not really reading the game closely is he more likely scum or town? Please enlighten me what goes through in your mind.

To add, I think your views are weak/silly and that's why it was easier to miss them (I also mentioned that slandaar belongs to this group at the back of my mind). Your reason about sunny's "misreading role pm" and therefore not scum is just epic actually. The great scum hunter Grim posted a wall why Future is scum, and a dubious/ambiguous claim and suddenly he's town. Pretty rediculous if I must say. The only reason I didn't persue this is because I simply didn't find the slot to be scummy anyway.

I like intereactions, I like posts, I like to question "blank" votes and views so that I may refer back to them later in the game. The connection between Peregrine's vote on nacho may not seem like a big deal now, but it could potentially be in the future.

Unlike you, I don't believe in having the need to have "substance behind every post". I don't believe in earning town-cred. I scum hunt and part of the way I do it is to create discussion and reveal "blanks" so I can refer for inconsistancies and slips. I do see Nacho as a strong player because I believe he does this well.

I believe Elyse seems to a passive player, but her posts does not give me the feeling that she intends to hide her reads or intentions. These are town-traits to me. Nacho's case seems abstract because I just can't see how her actions triggers his explainations. She didn't hide that she wants future and bp lynched/scum read. Having unoriginal reads D1 is not strange to me IMHO. Some players enter the game with strong reads just off a few posts. Other's takes more posts and a couple of cases and those that has similiar train of thoughts will have similiar reads. Null/passiveness is not a strong scum-read for me D1. In fact I actually think the flip and wagon formation is the most crucial D1 element. Towards the later days we will see which are the debates that were scum-town or town-town and it will be useful to reflect on the bandwagon formations.

Therefore I can't think why Nacho would be this confident about elyse. Also, scums don't usually start wagons, and I think Nacho might be trying to fuck with our minds here, and therefore my gut says to get some pressure on this wagon.

5 days to deadline.
In the exchange between Elyse and Nacho, nacho's case seems abstract, Elyse gives me an overrall more town feel.

Mod Edit: Removed quoted unauthorized use of Mod's color and fixed quote tags.

[Baezu]

@grim first of all, thanks for the protocol note. I will remember to tally votes in the future. Also, I think we should certainly give Elyse suggestions if what we want her to do but she should decide her final actions on her own. This way, scum won't know whether to block her or try to find and block the 3rd town pr. This was also the reason I didn't mention who I wanted to investigate as cop but I still took suggestions.

[ac1983fan]

Mod Announcements:

• I will be traveling / on vacation from August 17th to August 20th; as such I will not be able to mod this game. However, Malakittens has graciously offered to be my backup mod for this game. As such, she will take over moderation duties during that four day period. (She might also cover me for a bit during Labor Day weekend.)
  
  
• Players are reminded of rule 21.

  21) I call dibs on

  purple

  font. Don't use it.

Vote Count:

RedDragon (4) - chernobylcitybus, Nachopappa, Slandaar, Baezu (L-2)

Baezu (1) - Elyse

Not Voting (6) - PeregrineV, Ztife, Red Dragon, Miss Stranger, SunnyDays, Grimgroove

With 11 players alive it takes 6 votes to lynch or no lynch. Deadline is in (expired on 2013-07-22 09:00:00).

Miss Stranger is V/LA until 7/13.

[PeregrineV]

Red Dragon hasn't come back and defended himself the way I'd expect him to as town, especially with the recent pressure. It's such a whole different Red Dragon we are seeing D2. That worries me immensely

Agree with this part.

@Red-

why nothing to say about your wagon?

[PeregrineV]

@Grim-

Sorry, but it looked like it was between Darthe and the claimed cop, I wasn't lynching the cop.

[Elyse]

How about I give you guys a three-person pool for my vig shot?

[Red Dragon]

Red Dragon hasn't come back and defended himself the way I'd expect him to as town, especially with the recent pressure. It's such a whole different Red Dragon we are seeing D2. That worries me immensely

Agree with this part.

@Red-

why nothing to say about your wagon?

Because it seems like a reasonable conclusion to make after the last days events. I won't deny that I'm scummy.

[Nachopappa]

Red Dragon, what are your current townreads and scumreads?

[Grimgroove]

How about I give you guys a three-person pool for my vig shot?

Sounds good!