Mini 1474: Desperado's Revenge (Game Over)

[N64Lord]

Welcome to your favorite game of answers and questions- Jeopardy

For theomoaner's questions, posts 19 and 20 have me saying "out of the blue" that mnemoic thinks radiantcowbells is scum trying to get lynch immunity, as well as you questioning mnemoic's stance on a vote that hadn't been based off of logic. Then radiant drops post 24. To be fair the two posts don't make discussion since the two answer each other nicely, but it did prod radiant into fakequoting.

I then say you are barking up the wrong tree> Because what you had said up to that time on radiant was; it's a scum gambit (In three different posts)! and with 44 and 46 you still don't actually put forward a direct question so that radiant/observer can actually prove the hunt, instead you ask this, and give radiant a pretty clear option of response. It actually feels like coaching to me.

As for LAL, it depends on the follow up to the lie. If it's a reaction fish we should be seeing analysis of the reactions it raised, so far all I've seen is an attempt to begin distancing from anti-town behaviour.

@ But N64, radiant made anti-town posts on day 2 and 3 when he wasn't fishing!
I'm answering the questions with a response, not pasting people's quotes to explain why I think the questions are unnecessary.(Like some people)
I want to know what JJcoolpants and feel it expect radiantcowbell to do.

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you really think you'll survive in here~ you don't seem to know which creek you're in~ sweet corn is the only thing that makes it through my rear~ how d'you think I keep this lovely grin-

Conker's Bad Fur Day

VOTE: Theomoaner

Anyone want to join me in quick lynching the scum?

See above

And then proceeds to semi-RVS Mmemnonic, after asking people to help quick lynch the scum ? yeah okay..

If it was genuine there would have been repercussions.

Looks like an attempt to play a gambit to me. Also, as a proven liar I think the pricipal of Lynch all Liars needs to be applied here.

Unless there is some good reason to lie, that is.

@RadiantCowbells: Do you have a post restriction?

Of course its not genuine if I really was jester do you think I'd post my role card? Furthermore, it's impossible based on the ruletset, which someone who has been here two years. Post restrictions aren't either.
This looks to me like Theo thought I was hiw traitor and was subtly fishing for me to say something to make it clearer to him.

I just had a skim of that, it looked like a ragequit to me, there is no real motive for this unless its scum trying to gambit.

I just don't get it, that's why my vote hasn't moved yet.

Still deathtunneling me.

The more I think about it I can only accept this as a scum gambit.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Still deathtunneling me.

@N64Lord: Why is it barking up the wrong tree?

Also what discussion was derived from #19 and #20?

Still deathtunneling me.

^ Mnemonic vote -> didn't like the OMGUS vote, or the call to quick lynch.

As for LAL, it depends on the follow up to the lie. If it's a reaction fish we should be seeing some sort of analysis of the reactions it raised, so far all I've seen is an attempt to begin distancing from anti-town behaviour.
If it was a way of getting the game started then it was a pretty awful one.

Gives an explanation for her vote that gives no sense because in her post she was on Mmemnonic's side, so she's retroactively turning a RVS vote into a real vote, then continues tunneling me.


I grow bored of this ISO but he has done nothing but poke at me all game. He's not even hard pushing for my lynch; he just keeps putting it out there that I'm scum.
That pressure without trying to get anyone's votes is characteristic of what I sometimes do as scum to look like I'm scumhunting without risking getting blamed for a mislynch.

[theomoaner]

So do you think he's scum or anti-town?

Not sure, I'm leaning probscum at this point. I'll explain the two quotes later.

I then say you are barking up the wrong tree> Because what you had said up to that time on radiant was; it's a scum gambit (In three different posts)! and with 44 and 46 you still don't actually put forward a direct question so that radiant/observer can actually prove the hunt, instead you ask this, and give radiant a pretty clear option of response. It actually feels like coaching to me.

So let me get this right, I'm barking up the wrong tree, which means that in your opinion Radiant isn't scum, but then I'm coaching radiant even though I am
scum?

Why would scum be coaching town?

Now there's a self-contradiction for you.

post 102. First if you are going to quote please include the post numbers so that people can easily go back an look at the full post in context.
Now, on to the points you raise...

I'm tunneling????!!!?!?!?!?

done.

I'm not pushing a wagon, because I'm not sure, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't look at what you have posted and comment on it and it is just anti-town noise.

[Lucky2u]

Idk... We had a scum coaching town in the last game me and radiant were in for the reason of appearing town so...

[Flench]

Fair enough. Do you think Flench is scum, or are you voting him for pressure? I'd be interested to hear about his autovote thing as I'm not sure what to make of it.

I'm reading mnemonic, n64, and epm very carefully right now.

The autovote threat has thus far never prevented posting and always given information. It was still RVS so the vote wasn't serious anyway.

Then changing my vote to JJcoolPants for a moments seems to have provoked a OMGUS vote from him.

I don't like Radiant's posts up to this point as I don't see them helping town, seems to be more distraction, so that's where my vote will stay.

I'll post more detailed reads soon.

[RadiantCowbells]

So, Flench, your position is that I am intentionally making stand-out posts for the explicit purpose of distracting town from scumhunting as part of my master plan?

[Flench]

Another post that tries to paint the idea of you as scum as a stupid idea. I see a trend.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's a trend because it's

stupid

to think that a town is scum.

Correct?

[Flench]

Alright, now to business.

@JJ- after re-reading you, I've changed my mind. Show me yours, and I'll show you mine . I'll post my top 3 if you do.
Why did you pick that group of three to get suspicions from?

@N64- which posts (and posters, I guess) do you feel are "fluff posts?"

and theomancer is even willing to make sure he brings my questions back to me, just in case he's accusing of tunneling on the jester.

Can you clarify this? I'm not sure what it means.

@Theo- can you expand on how you feel about Cowbells?

@Radioactive Wolf- I look forward to hearing about that vote

@ RadiantCowbells- How about you play well instead? You're obviously capable of it.

It's not always optimal scum play to self-hammer. In fact, it's usually not. Plus, posted policy is extremely anti-town.

And if you're town, here are some things to consider before you make a petulant OMGUS self hammer:
1. Townies get voted to L-1 all the time. If you die, you can still win. It's in your best interest to let the rest of the town gather as much info from the lynch as possible.
2. Not all L-1 wagons end in a lynch. If you self-hammer, you're giving up on lynching scum before you have to. Examples: In the meta you referenced, on D2 lucky got voted to L-1 by the machinations of the ridiculously bad obvscum in that game (btw congrats on calling that game on day2, lucky). If he had self-hammered, the town would in all likelihood have missed on the Jason lynch. And in my ancient newbie here, we got to a day2 L-1 on an unhelpful townie. If he had self hammered, our cop wouldn't have been able to deliver a guilty on scum. Further, he shaped up his play on day3, and thanks to getting cop cleared, he won the game for us in LYLO. He actually said at one point:

But I'm also not a large enough asshole to hammer myself.

3. You know your alignment. The mod knows your alignment. If you're scum, your partner knows your alignment. If you are getting voted to L-1 as town, it's because someone who doesn't know your alignment is mistaken about it. It's obvious to you that they're wrong, but they aren't operating on the same information as you are.

It doesn't make someone dumb to draw an incorrect conclusion from incomplete evidence.

Not comfortable with a vote on anybody yet, but we're getting there.

So why do you keep insisting that thinking you are scum is stupid?

[Flench]

That was directed at RadiantCowbells, not sthar8 btw.

[RadiantCowbells]

Because it is.

End story.

[JJcoolPants]

I think cowbells is bad town, not scum.

Hahaha dismissing my vote on you as OMGUS. I gave pretty clear reasons for my vote, and it was after your vote was already off me.

I think Flench is scum. Do you think I am ecumenical, Flench?

I'll explain theomoaners quotes at the bottom of 98 for him. I believe he is suggesting you two made a slip by both suggesting there is only two scum. an interesting theory, to say the least. Not nearly enough on its own, of course.

FoS on feel it. I don't like that I had to ask you for your reads to get going, and when you did you joined a pretty lame wagon without your own evidence. Same with Flench, just piggybacking what others have said

[JJcoolPants]

"Do you think I'm scum, Flench?" Is what I meant to say. My phone is silly

[sthar8]

@Lucky- I think in that game it was more about mastin trying to be an IC. He seems pretty serious about that. Your conclusion is sound though.

@Flench- I assumed the autovote was your RVS thing, and I certainly don't see it stifling discussion. But in the actual autovote post, you justified the vote as though it were serious. If it was a joke vote, why the justification? And if you were ready to serious vote, why the autovote thing? I don't like the ambiguity.

Also, I'll pose you the same question I asked Theo: do you believe RC is scum, or anti-town? And, of course, I look forward to your reads.

@N64-

I'm answering the questions with a response, not pasting people's quotes to explain why I think the questions are unnecessary.(Like some people)

I don't know what this sentence means. Can you clarify?
Also, I asked you two questions that I'd still like answered.

@RC We're past the point of this being useful. You and I will have words, when the timing is appropriate.

@JJ- I think you're entirely too ecumenical.

I'll explain theomoaners quotes at the bottom of 98 for him.

Do not

ever

do this. No matter how good you think your read is, you don't

know

theo's alignment. You may have protected him from a chance to incriminate himself, or at the very least robbed the town of his original thoughts in his own words. If he's scum, he may have been trying to insinuate that conclusion, and having it come from you instead of him gives him probable deniability if the idea were to lead to something. Town players should focus on playing town, not helping someone who might be scum to play

their

role.

I was pretty sure that was what he was getting at, but I wanted it to come from him, since there's no protown reason to beat around the bush with an idea like that. Obviously, in my notes I have marks next to you, feelit, pacman, and jon to revisit those remarks for tells once we know more about the setup. I assumed that was your reason for asking the question in the first place. But we don't have enough information yet (as far as I know) to merit beginning that discussion, so I wanted to know why theo was bringing it up.

[Radioactive Wolf]

Re: the Feel It vote

From the few posts (ISO's #0 - #6; ISO) I saw from FI, I felt like he was trying too hard to be nice and not step on anyone's toes. He also posted pretty frequently without really saying much (scum are more likely to post frequently in the early game to grab cheap townpoints).

Radioactive Wolf- Gonna look OMGUSy but he's made two posts, one confirming and another voting me without an explanation, either scummy or bad town play. Will have to see more to be sure.

Yeah, I agree. That looks very OMGUSy. Instead of awaiting my explanation, it seems to me like you automatically label me "scum" or "bad" based on my post count or the circumstances of my posting on a Sunday night when I'm really, really tired (neither of which are alignment indicative in the least).

Looks like we've got a mini-wagon going on theo, though, so let's look at that...

Yeah, this is a pretty poorly founded wagon. And I don't like Feel-it's participation in it (as JJ already noted, there's really not much substance behind it; what exactly felt "forced"?)

Vote stays

[Flench]

"Do you think I'm scum, Flench?" Is what I meant to say. My phone is silly

I think you were upset that I called you annoying so you waited until I took my vote off you so you could vote me.

@Flench- I assumed the autovote was your RVS thing, and I certainly don't see it stifling discussion. But in the actual autovote post, you justified the vote as though it were serious. If it was a joke vote, why the justification? And if you were ready to serious vote, why the autovote thing? I don't like the ambiguity.

My post:

Vote: RadiantCowbells

Could be a strong play from mafia to make us not want to kill the fool, or could just be the fool.

So I followed through with the autovote to show that I would. I mentioned my thoughts on Cowbells because he had the crazy posts up to that point and I temporarily forgot the game was standard, thus no jester. It was not a justification, it was a thought on how Cowbells was playing up to that point. It was not a serious vote, as seen by my next vote to JJ with the reasoning he was annoying, which was also during RVS, in my opinion.

[theomoaner]

I think cowbells is bad town, not scum.

Hahaha dismissing my vote on you as OMGUS. I gave pretty clear reasons for my vote, and it was after your vote was already off me.

I think Flench is scum. Do you think I am ecumenical, Flench?

I'll explain theomoaners quotes at the bottom of 98 for him. I believe he is suggesting you two made a slip by both suggesting there is only two scum. an interesting theory, to say the least. Not nearly enough on its own, of course.

FoS on feel it. I don't like that I had to ask you for your reads to get going, and when you did you joined a pretty lame wagon without your own evidence. Same with Flench, just piggybacking what others have said

[offtopic] I can never see the word ecumenical without thinking of this (probably not safe for work) [/offtopic]

Yes JJ you got it, but I really wanted to see Feel It's reaction first, that's why I was holding off.

Sthar has already pointed ot that he is probably the most experienced player in this game so I would assume that he would be thinking that this would be a reasonably standard setup of 20%-25% mafia, or three person mafia team so why does he suggest to Cowbells that...

... If you're scum,

your partner knows your alignment

. ...

Singular

partner. It seems mighty suspicious to me.

Feel It also mentions a two man scum team, that's why I mentioned this. He is already ringing alarm bells with massive fluff posting then jumping a popular wagon for contrived reasons.

... but I wanted it to come from him, since there's no protown reason to beat around the bush with an idea like that.

I chose to hold off, as I said earlier, because I really wanted to see Feel It's reaction, if there was one. If you and he, (or indeed anyone and he) are a scum team then I guess,from his play so far, he would be the weaker member and his reaction would provide the most information. Too late though now JJ has explained it.

@N64Lord: Whats you view on Feel It?

@Mnenonic: What do you think of N64Lord?

[N64Lord]

I've played a game with Device before he... wasn't very useful to be honest. He acted scummy then claimed doctor when under pressure and got himself lynched the next day when he told us he protected one of the players he wanted lynched.

The asshole of the universe-Michael Leroi, Shadow Man

Feel it sets an rvs vote, but then tells radiant that his reaction to mnemoic is too extreme, the point of random voting, is to generate content, and cutting support like this cab allow scum to ignore pressure votes... they know it won't go through. When the town's attention is cowbells and theo, he needlessly brings up mini 1474(ongoing), discrediting mnemonic, who he had defended, and getting him out of a commitment, should he become the focus of a wagon later.

Well, very early the game estimates but;
JJcoolPants- You seem town to me, making frequent posts, generating content.
RadiantCowbells- I think he's playing a town gambit
sthar8-town
theomoaner- He gives me scummy vibes, his scumhunting feels weak and forced.
Radioactive Wolf- Gonna look OMGUSy but he's made two posts, one confirming and another voting me without an explanation, either scummy or bad town play. Will have to see more to be sure.
Everyone else has felt null/not posted enough.
VOTE: theomoaner

He does not bring up the posts that made him feel this way about the players, and uses fairly obvious standards of town and anti-town, notably, he seems to buy into Town radiant cowbells, even though he hasn't said one thing for or against at this point. I'm going to count the radiocative wolf thing as fluff, its not something worth discussing at the time of this post.

Overall, he's a little too self aware about cutting his options and he really needs to notice the main wagons.
@sth4r I'm in a hurry, but the main fluff posts(or parts of posts) are flench's first vote change, theomoaner and others noting how oppurtunistic it was without follow through on his scummy behavior, feel it bringing up mnemoic when town was focusing elsewhere, and people's response to that. I couldn't find your other question when I looked in your ISO.... If it's important, please refresh me.

[Feel It]

I think cowbells is bad town, not scum.

Hahaha dismissing my vote on you as OMGUS. I gave pretty clear reasons for my vote, and it was after your vote was already off me.

I think Flench is scum. Do you think I am ecumenical, Flench?

I'll explain theomoaners quotes at the bottom of 98 for him. I believe he is suggesting you two made a slip by both suggesting there is only two scum. an interesting theory, to say the least. Not nearly enough on its own, of course.

FoS on feel it. I don't like that I had to ask you for your reads to get going, and when you did you joined a pretty lame wagon without your own evidence. Same with Flench, just piggybacking what others have said

[offtopic] I can never see the word ecumenical without thinking of this (probably not safe for work) [/offtopic]

Yes JJ you got it, but I really wanted to see Feel It's reaction first, that's why I was holding off.

Sthar has already pointed ot that he is probably the most experienced player in this game so I would assume that he would be thinking that this would be a reasonably standard setup of 20%-25% mafia, or three person mafia team so why does he suggest to Cowbells that...

... If you're scum,

your partner knows your alignment

. ...

Singular

partner. It seems mighty suspicious to me.

Feel It also mentions a two man scum team, that's why I mentioned this. He is already ringing alarm bells with massive fluff posting then jumping a popular wagon for contrived reasons.

... but I wanted it to come from him, since there's no protown reason to beat around the bush with an idea like that.

I chose to hold off, as I said earlier, because I really wanted to see Feel It's reaction, if there was one. If you and he, (or indeed anyone and he) are a scum team then I guess,from his play so far, he would be the weaker member and his reaction would provide the most information. Too late though now JJ has explained it.

@N64Lord: Whats you view on Feel It?

@Mnenonic: What do you think of N64Lord?

And how is my posting fluffier than anybody else? What's scummy about me suggesting a 2 scum team with a serial killer? That's a real possibility and the fact you're trying to use straightforward posts like that, along with asking other players about me, suggests you're scum but trying to flip me by testing to see if I'm an easy target and if others will follow you. I'm feeling more confident about my vote the more I see you post.

[JJcoolPants]

he fact you're trying to use straightforward posts like that, along with asking other players about me, suggests you're scum but trying to flip me by testing to see if I'm an easy target and if others will follow you. I'm feeling more confident about my vote the more I see you post.

That's some serious stretching, OMGUS reasoning.

Unvote
Vote: Feel it

But flench, I'm not done with you yet

"Do you think I'm scum, Flench?" Is what I meant to say. My phone is silly

I think you were upset that I called you annoying so you waited until I took my vote off you so you could vote me.

Do. You. Think. I'm. Scum.

And I don't get upset at being called 'annoying.' This is the internet, I've been through a lot worse without being mad. I'm not out for revenge or whatever you're thinking.

It was not a serious vote, as seen by my next vote to JJ with the reasoning he was annoying, which was also during RVS, in my opinion.

That was not during RVS. There was genuine discussion by page 3.

[theomoaner]

And how is my posting fluffier than anybody else?

I did not say your posting was "fluffier" than anyone else's. I said your posts were fluff. Of the eight posts you made prior to this one only two can be said to have any meaningful content. #45 just about counts, and #95 in which you give your "reads".

What's scummy about me suggesting a 2 scum team with a serial killer? That's a real possibility...

Nothing scummy about that suggestion on its own (yes that set up is possible) but that suggestion coupled with another post by another person which subtly suggests a two player scum team, is a little scummy in that it could indicate insider knowledge on your and Sthar8's part.

...and the fact you're trying to use straightforward posts like that, along with asking other players about me, suggests you're scum but trying to flip me by testing to see if I'm an easy target and if others will follow you. I'm feeling more confident about my vote the more I see you post.

In my honest opinion there is no such thing as a straightforward post in this game.

Any

post could possibly contain useful information, and throw away lines often contain the most slips as not much thought usually goes into them.
Is my vote on you? How then can I be trying to flip you and trying to get others to follow?

[N64Lord]

I'm going vacation/limited access until the 19th, I will be unavailable for the rest of today as well.

[evilpacman18]

I started reading the game over from page 2 and the first thing I noticed was that I don't like lucky2u's post 26 where he leads off immediately with a suspicion of RC and THEN makes a random vote which is pointless and contradictory for someone who comes in with an accusation 11 posts after the game starts.

I'm not really sure what I think about theomoaner in 34 and 35. I didn't like him the first time I read that. On one hand it's a terribly opportunistic and bad-looking vote, but on the other hand, the half hour space in posts and the stream of consciousness feel to them tell me that this is a town player who's thinking about the game. Of course, he could've just decided to take the opportunity to mislynch pretty obv-town RC. IGMEOU I guess.

mnemonic device, how old are you? Serious question.

by page 3, jon_h61 made two "hello, I'll post eventually" posts. Usually when people keep apologizing for their posts, I tend to lean scum if there's really no reason for them to be apologizing. There wasn't even space of page between the two posts, it's unnecessary to justify lurking and promise eventual content so frequently.

Right now I think everyone's reads are aimed in the wrong direction and people should stop recklessly voting.

[evilpacman18]

I also agree with JJ that Flench could be scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

by page 3, jon_h61 made two "hello, I'll post eventually" posts. Usually when people keep apologizing for their posts, I tend to lean scum if there's really no reason for them to be apologizing. There wasn't even space of page between the two posts, it's unnecessary to justify lurking and promise eventual content so frequently.

VOTE: jon_h61

Confirming what he said and I really don't like people who do that either.