Open 508: The Law of the Jungle (Town Wins!)

[StubbsKVM]

Well, his calling out doesn't feel forced. Yours does. Every time.

Titus, Why are they town?
Saki, if you don't have any reads, you need to reread the thread. How are you going to catch scum if you don't have any reads? The only answer to not having reads is being scum, because they don't need reads, they only need to survive.

[Saki]

Saki, if you don't have any reads, you need to reread the thread. How are you going to catch scum if you don't have any reads? The only answer to not having reads is being scum, because they don't need reads, they only need to survive.

I will, mk.
but then at the same time I'm not a fan of long readslists containing stuff about everyone.

[Titus]

How do my investigations feel forced?

I am calling them town because they all have contributed significant avenues of analysis without regard to disagreeing with someone or the attention they may gather. Their statements are plausible and logically consistent even if I disagree with them.

[StubbsKVM]

They are forced because you're jumping on people making mistakes instead of making slips.

We could have this discussion for 50 more pages. I think your attitude is forced. You say it isn't. Period.

[Titus]

Well, unless you give some sort of standard for that, it will look like that you just wanted to label my behavior as scummy so you say it's "forced" and "faked" while the same thing coming from someone else is very town.

[StubbsKVM]

They are forced because you're jumping on people making mistakes instead of making slips.

We could have this discussion for 50 more pages. I think your attitude is forced. You say it isn't. Period.

I just did.

[Titus]

I view the things I vote on as slips. I didn't jump on any mistakes. Robocop's play wasn't a mistake, but his deliberate playstyle.

I asked a linquistic question to Voodoo Lady =/= jumping on anything.

[Saki]

They are forced because you're jumping on people making mistakes instead of making slips.

We could have this discussion for 50 more pages. I think your attitude is forced. You say it isn't. Period.

I just did.

*raises hand*
Mr. Mouse I want an explanation

P-EDIT :: He might just be referencing you jumping on Darthe for failing to mention wolves.

[Dyslexicon]

I hate not being able to post more often =/

@Dyslexicon, the slip seems more like wolves to me because a scum player not revealing their faction in the list of possible scums implicitly tells that the player doesn't see that faction as scummy. For instance, Darthe omitting wolves from the list of scums implicitly says he thinks wolves aren't scummy.

Oh, now I get how you're thinking. I did the reverse. You have a) he didn't mention the wolves cause he wasn't going to hunt them = he is a wolf, b) he didn't mention the wolves cause he didn't know or forgot they existed (which was what I thought) = he is mafia (most likely) or c) something else which isn't alignment indicative.

To the first paragraph: No it doesn't. Alternate explanations are always possible, and in this CSS certain though you can't know that.

What was your train of though using the 25% for mafia, please take me through it step by step if you can/remember. I need to be sure on something.

Reads from a review of the first four pages:

Jennifer looks town
Voodoo too
Stubbs as well
And I like Smudger

I'm really conflicted on Boro because he seems so earnest, his play just doesn't read to me like it could have any intelligent motivation or plotting..
Likewise, no clue on Dyslexicon
Or Lixie.

Titus could be overcompensating
Fairly negative read on Saki for a post style that lends itself to instigation of issues, would love to read a couple of town/scum games
Robo cop I'm very slight scum on for attempting to push easy lynches selectively
Zeofar I find slightly scummy

Four town reads from the first four pages in a game full of scum? Why these reads? Explain.

I have checked, in fact did it when it was first bought up and discounted it as an honest mistake, even now when playing it is hard to recall that we are actually looking for two groups of scum, this is the first time I have played in this set up so "slips" such as the one I believe Darthe made will happen, in particular during the early part of D1, did Darthe not state this was the first time he had played this set up?

I've never played this setup before either, and although I'm not too concerned about there being two scum factions (although it does make the game dynamics different), I am very aware that there are a lot of scum in this game. I do agree though, that the "slip" could be an honest mistake, but this would mean Darthe is town, would it not?

Quadruple post time. My response to dsylexicon (below) got caught up in quote tags above.

This is very odd, as is the subsequent vote. Why does the fact that we have 41.7% scum make it any less likely that town is dominating the opening proceedings? So tbqh I don't think your post makes any sense, and considering your vote for me was hot on the heels of me flagging up your inactivity as potentially scummy, big FOS on you.

What makes it more likely are the 41,7% as opposed to the more normal 25%. More scum, more likely they are involved in the discussions, possibly the two factions with each other. This also makes it more likely scum will get lynched D1, which was why I commented on your view on this. Pretty straight forward if you ask me. What else do you think is "very odd" or doesn't make sense in my post? Connecting this with my activety is lol, I catch up when I have the time, this would be regardless of alignment.

[BoroPhil]

41.7% is still a minority though isn't it? therefore, it strikes me as a very odd reason to vote for me. and I didn't really connect it with your activity did I? I commented on the fact you voted for me after I flagged you up as possible scum. Or are you trying to deliberately misrep me?

[Dyslexicon]

41.7% is still a minority though isn't it? therefore, it strikes me as a very odd reason to vote for me. and I didn't really connect it with your activity did I? I commented on the fact you voted for me after I flagged you up as possible scum. Or are you trying to deliberately misrep me?

The point is just irrelevant. First of all everyone is possible scum if you are town, second of all your original point seem to be that "scum is usually hiding" early, however this is the same in all my current games, I believe I already stated I wouldn't be as frequent. The reason I reacted to your rationale about town hunting town, and town being lynched on D1 is just that I'd never thunk it myself to compare this to a regular mafia game. I agree that this isn't a very strong reason for a vote, however I wanted to move it to a more useful place than Magic Girl, and you did provide reactions = yay!

Also, I'm not trying to misrep you. The wording might be off, but I feel like you're nitpicking there.

[Robocopter87]

Post #203 by Smudger was BOOM TOWN, that just tipped the scale from neutral to town in my mind. That's a townie thought process, IMO.

@Boro: Can you do me a favor and make a compact post with a SHORT summary about why you feel Zeofar is scum? I know you've been suspicious of him for most of this game, but I'd like to know what made you really go for it. Just a little numbered list is all, honestly I hate the huge posts. A short succint post will do the job, please.

@Stubbs: In post 189 Jennifer asked you a question. Please answer that.

And, still waiting on Darthe's response. So that's all for now, folks.

[Titus]

@Robocopter, check from Stubbs's read on. The question is answered there. His reason is not good but he did answer.

[Robocopter87]

I guess his read depends on if you believe Darthe actually slipped, or if Darthe simply messed up.

I'm beginning to doubt he actually slipped, it seems more likely he made a genuine mistake than he was scum thinking out of line.

My reasons for Darthe being scum have shifted away from that field of thought, because just because it was a mistake, doesn't mean it was a town mistake. My reasons now lie in his reads, or the lack of reasoning therein. It's an okay post until you realize that none of his reads are backed up. It's simple a veneer of reads.

But hey, if he can give proper reasoning for his reads, who am I to continue pushing for his death?

[Robocopter87]

Also, you can just call me Robo.

[Jennifer]

Quick note, got swamped with killer work day today. Will catch up tomorrow!

[Saki]

I'm having trouble understanding the bulk of this game. Would it be better if I replaced out?

[Saki]

Sorry is all I can say for now.

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Global Post

Sorry folks, meatworld has claimed Saki.
dw Saki always finds his way out of it somehow he'll be back in around 36-48 hours.

[Darthe]

Reads from a review of the first four pages:

Jennifer looks town
Voodoo too
Stubbs as well
And I like Smudger

I'm really conflicted on Boro because he seems so earnest, his play just doesn't read to me like it could have any intelligent motivation or plotting..
Likewise, no clue on Dyslexicon
Or Lixie.

Titus could be overcompensating
Fairly negative read on Saki for a post style that lends itself to instigation of issues, would love to read a couple of town/scum games
Robo cop I'm very slight scum on for attempting to push easy lynches selectively
Zeofar I find slightly scummy

People have asked about these reads and thus I am doing a sum of my thoughts on each player, for all eight pages.

Jennifer - is clear town. We have a person motivated and critical of all actions yet not blocked by bias or narrowness displaying an interest in active communication with all members. She is like batman in this thread. Need I say more?

Voodoo - Voodoo has five posts, four of which aren't jokes. By page four it was enough to get a town read from me. By page ten I find that self incriminating and thus this player drops to null. Anyone could have a good start and use that credit to ride for a while.

Stubbs - I read stubbs like I read Jennifer. This is another motivated and strong player who is independently searching out what interests them and judging responses. Again, I could talk a lot about this, but what need have I of reiterating why someone is town at length when I can do it in a sentence or two?

Smudger - is like Saki, but better and with actual definitive/logical thoughts placed on thread instead of spam. I would say more, but read the Saki slot analysis and you will get it.

Boro - First post he makes a statement about his own ditziness. Could be mafia covering their tracks, but it is so easy to check on and see if he is lying that I doubt it. Plays semi-emotionally (mafia tend to have their game face on). Sticks to his guns until information suggests that he should do otherwise (good scum do this, but it doesn't fit with his play if you view the other points on him as a scum ploy). Also, seems to be putting in effort (not a tell, I just like it). I have nothing against this slot, I just don't have much for them either.

Dyslexi - Has eight posts in the game, four of which tell us absolutely nothing (two votes, catching up, and plz answer this) and three of which are WoT's. Of those, the first one is a series of quips, the second is good logic and content with some other jokes, and the third is mostly info with a few opinions dashed in. Upon further review, I am leaning slight town for the logic displayed when this person takes the time to actually talk (also, I saw your question and will answer shortly).

Linxie - only had three posts but two were good posts and that is what we got from that slot so far. Basically, this person thought about a problem and looked for alternative solutions. I always like that. Mafia tend to go for simpler more straightforward solutions in an effort to avoid making mistakes/extra trouble for themselves/revealing too much. I didn't see that here. Yet, more posts are needed to feel confident about this slot.

Titus - Looks like active mafia, but I could see the argument for null here. Posts like #75 and #79 look bad to me because they point a lot of fingers with no real direction. This is the shoot until you hit something strategy imo. Posts like #81 almost deserve a vote, but every time I see something like the three cited examples that makes me cringe a bit I see a post like #213 that makes me think perhaps this is just an Emo Townie, trying their best and frustrated when people don't get it.

Saki - This may surprise many of you but Saki has 37 posts this game. If that amazes you, it is because only four are complete sentences (kidding, but only four are more than a sentence or so). As I said before, these little snippets come off to me as someone attempting to push situations without actually getting involved. Someone attempting to be active without truly having activity (for instance, considering that this is perhaps the most active player (5 posts on VLA) why do we have no list of reads and why did they say they don't really understand the game? He is clearly checking it.. a lot.). This slot has no tells and no info really related to it, and thus casing will by and large prove futile. I encourage all to read the ISO though.

Robocop - Oh boy, here we go. The self vote was not 'scummy' as self votes are not inherently. Nor was joking about it. However, #37 where he apologizes for it because it irks another interests me. He seems to change his stance about it being a 'random affair', stating that it has garnered good results and voting me over it. That post, specifically the apology, the switch in how he treats an RVS, and the last rhetorical line, all give hint at something amiss. We quickly see robo pushing this lynch because.. of what exactly? It has mostly died down because of the lack of support, but until that point he did not let go of the bit (and is still not letting go fully). I think it fair to say that without this player D1 would not be about me as singly as it has been. Other notes: He is not a WoT player. Post #146 was particularly good. I am interested in why Robo is content to push my lynch singly and yet gives certain other players (such as Boro) who don't have real... reads... the benefit of the doubt. That speaks to me of conscious selection.

Zeofar - looks like someone defending town to get credit when they flip. Wish this person would talk more. Don't understand why they are really a lynch candidate yet, as I doubt we can afford mislynches.

[Darthe]

To the first paragraph: No it doesn't. Alternate explanations are always possible, and in this CSS certain though you can't know that.

What was your train of though using the 25% for mafia, please take me through it step by step if you can/remember. I need to be sure on something.

Uhm, I think I posted this out already, but I thought that we had a standard goon and two 'warewolfs' with some power that the goon didn't have as one scum team.

Thus, if you get a random group of four (which we had because nobody really chose the train on robo, each individual selected themselves) and grill them instead of the entire faction of 12 it is more focused and thus more productive. Especially for me, since I knew the alignment of one.

I later stated that this superficial method would actually be more effective with five (which is true).

I don't think it much matters anymore because we have information to go off of now in the form of peoples' words.

[Bulbazak]

The Lair of the Wolf is his refuge, but where he has digged it too plain,
The Council shall send him a message, and so shall he change it again.

Vote Count

StubbsKVM (0):
Titus (2): NicolBolas, StubbsKVM
Dyslexicon (1): Voodoo Lady
Robocopter87 (0):
Voodoo Lady (1): Saki
Jennifer (0):
Zeofar (2): Jennifer, BoroPhil
Darthe (2): Robocopter87, Titus
BoroPhil (1): Dyslexicon
Smudger (0):
Saki (0):
NicolBolas (0):

Not voting (3): Darthe, Zeofar, Smudger

Smudger is V/LA until July 21.

It is day 1. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day ends on Friday July 26 at 1:30pm EST or when a majority is reached. Countdown: (expired on 2013-07-26 13:30:52)

[StubbsKVM]

I'll be on V/LA for the entire weekend. Might pop in on Sunday(but don't count on it)

[Bulbazak]

Prodding Voodoo Lady.

[Jennifer]

Sorry guys, this work week has been hellacious. Very quick, we only have 6 days until deadline, and we're pretty scattered all over the place. I think we need to start consolidating and seeing where we can reach a consensus. To start, it would help if Darthe, Zeofar, and Smudger would vote. Saki, I know you are voting Voodoo to get her to post, but at this point I think it's more helpful to have you vote who you think is scummy so we can take everyone's temperature.

This is my first time playing with two enemy factions, and I haven't had a chance to read over the old games yet to see optimal play. I'm not even sure on Day 1 that it matters, as I don't see how we could distinguish a wolf from a goon. Ideally, we would kill a werewolf because they're the ones with the nightkill, but mafia can be a voting block so they can't be allowed to all live either.

Has anyone played with Saki before? I've skimmed the recent posts and saw he's posting but not saying anything. It pings my radar of scum trying to avoid being accused of lurking while also not being forced into making any stands.

[Voodoo Lady]

Prodding Voodoo Lady.

Prod-dodging Bulbazak.

Sorry about my inactivity, but my laptop got stolen recently and I haven't had that much time to access the internet. What little time I do have has been spent on the open game I'm modding, so I'm not going to be following this thread to the extent I'd like to be. Hopefully I'll have it back this weekend.