Open 520: Stacking the Deck Part II - Game Over...Mafia Win!

[bubbajack8]

Fuck these circles. IVE SHOWN HOW HE IS SCUM HUNTING.

STOP WITH THE FUCKING CIRCLES JESUS CHRIST.

[JasonWazza]

How about this, you quote me one thing that is shown by Jsmith against ME that i am scummy BARRING experience tells, i will unvote you and not vote you for the rest of D1.

To counter this here is every instance of him saying a lynch on me because of experience is good:

With nothing else to go off of, I currently recommend lynching an experienced player, since newer players tend to be easier to read, and it's not like anyone here is so new that they're potential liabilities if left running the show.

##Vote: JasonWazza

We've already seen how a relatively newer player can make this game easier for town (i.e. awestfie is almost certainly town for her noobslip). We don't really need a bunch of experienced town players in this game if there are several newer players who can make getting reads easier imo. Yes, a more proper way to approach this is to go for the experienced player who has shown to be a far better mafia player than they are town player, but I didn't go through the effort of figuring that information out. Bottom line, I'm not advocating a lynch of a newbie game IC because they might trick me as scum. I'm advocating it because relatively inexperienced players are less likely to trick me as scum, so I'd prefer they be alive rather than the experienced ones. The ease of reading newer players outweighs the benefit of having a bunch of experienced town players imo.

@anorway: Personally speaking, Jason didn't do anything scummy (he only made one post before I voted him). I just prefer to lynch an experienced player is all, and he was a viable target.

And I've played long enough to know that people don't like my reasoning for early lynches lol, so I'm not going to try to convince town that we should lynch you/Mutley because of non-scummy reasons (though Mutley's behavior could be somewhat construed as scummy), even though I think it's proper play.

Hint the only post you can somewhat construe as scumhunting is the following:

Between Jason/Mutley/fuzzy, I'd personally prefer to lynch between Mutley and fuzzy. Though I think Jason's logic is flawed and his behavior isn't conducive to rational discussion, his posts/arguments provide more information on his thoughts than the other two. The other two's posts generally come across as "you're scum...keep flailing scum...that's so scummy...etc.". Their posts don't provide a clear picture of their thought process or argument, so I can't even judge their logic, because it's hardly been presented. If bubba does end up getting lynched and flips scum, I'd sooner think one of the 3 were bussing over them all being town.

And even that is fucking reaching, it's more like town hunting out of experienced players.

[Sakura Hana]

Scumhunting: Any action taken by town that makes it more likely for town to find scum.

I haven't seen jsmith1234 do this, he's only advocating policy lynch (experience?) and saying that he thinks someone's scum because -reasons-.

Neither of these are scumhunting.

[jsmith1234]

I have not said I think anyone is scum, Sakura. I am advocating a lynch to make scumhunting later on easier.

Whether or not people's behavior to me as the IC could be construed as scummy, I don't think it's worth arguing any further. I recommend others focus on other points.

[Sakura Hana]

I'd personally prefer to lynch between Mutley and fuzzy

So this is not commiting yourself to a scumread?

[JasonWazza]

I have not said I think anyone is scum, Sakura.

THE IC IS ADMITING HE ISN'T SCUMHUNTING BUBBA, NOW WHAT YOU GONNA SAY?

[jsmith1234]

I'd personally prefer to lynch between Mutley and fuzzy

So this is not commiting yourself to a scumread?

No, not at all. I explained why I wanted to lynch those two, and it had very little to do with either of them being scummy.

[Sakura Hana]

"I want to lynch these 2 even tho I don't think they are scummy"

Now I see why they want you dead even if you're the IC.

[jsmith1234]

I have different views than you on how to best achieve town's win condition. So be it. Based on your attitude so far, I'm even more comfortable with my logic since I don't yet have faith in your abilities to accurately scumhunt better than the average Open Game player.

[JasonWazza]

So instead of letting the lynch be an information lynch by taking sides, you choose to lynch people who are more experienced rid the town of more accurate lynches on later days due to less info and rid us of better scumhunters.

good work.

[Mutleyddmc]

There's actually a few set ups random lynchig works. This is nt one of them. Plus truely lunching randomly is impossible due to scum influence. Although with an IC it helps but yer randomly lynching isn't a good idea in this set up

[bubbajack8]

Regarding bubba's actual scuminess, his more recent behavior is unfortunately countering the earlier towniness I was reading on him. Before he seemed like he really didn't care, but now he seems more flustered and offended. I was expecting at least a couple "you're going to see how wrong you are" or something similar in his most recent posts. Regardless, I'm not sold on him at all, and at least his posts are coherent and his arguments generally clear. That brings me to the following point.

Between Jason/Mutley/fuzzy, I'd personally prefer to lynch between Mutley and fuzzy. Though I think Jason's logic is flawed and his behavior isn't conducive to rational discussion, his posts/arguments provide more information on his thoughts than the other two. The other two's posts generally come across as "you're scum...keep flailing scum...that's so scummy...etc.". Their posts don't provide a clear picture of their thought process or argument, so I can't even judge their logic, because it's hardly been presented. If bubba does end up getting lynched and flips scum, I'd sooner think one of the 3 were bussing over them all being town.

The first part of this is scum hunting. He's trying to discern if I'm town or not.

The second CAN be seen as it, but you're right is stretching.

Unvote me or not idgaf.

[bubbajack8]

I have not said I think anyone is scum, Sakura.

THE IC IS ADMITING HE ISN'T SCUMHUNTING BUBBA, NOW WHAT YOU GONNA SAY?

He's admitted it before.

[elleheathen]

@elle:
then I think it's safe

never safe!

Because scum should worry about the wagon. I'm legitamenlty not worried.

As I said before L-2 is not something to worry about.... Unless you're scum.

Is this supposed to be you not worried right now?

@elle: No prob. So does that mean after clarifying the definition of "clear", you no longer think bubba's point is contradictory to his previous arguments?

On that single point: Less contradictory but no less scummy.

It wasn't so much about that single statement than it was about the whole of them saying that he didn't care if he got lynched. Which prompted:

I understand that a town is less likely to care if they die than a scum might be but that should be because we have done all we can to try and convince town that we're town and provided them with all the information that we can from that point - but I don't feel like you're actually doing that.

He says he has but reading his ISO, I don't see much of anything besides statements saying that he's town in the midst of a RWARANGRYCAPSPARTYRWAR.

Sakura called it pretty accurately with:

Here's a summary of bubba's reason for saying he's town: "I'm town"
Here's a summary of bubba's reasonings for saying mutley's scum "He thinks I'm scum"

Besides arguing the Innocent Child issue to the grave, which leads me to refer you back to:

The point is being missed.

Because really, if you're taking it as anything more than:

DUDE WTF MAN. YOU'RE OUR IC AND YOUR LOGIC SUCKS MONKEY BALLS. YOU'RE LUCKY YOU'RE THE IC OR I'D LYNCH YOU ALL DAY.

You are

reaching

.

Because this seems like the only other thing that you might construe as actually helping? It's not helping - it's hindering. Because we keep having to go back to explain how this is ridiculous. You're talking about circles - but you're creating them.

Even if you were to flip town, how is this going to help? If you haven't noticed, it's a pretty general consesus that we'd rather vote someone that's scummy as opposed to someone based solely on experience level.

And that is all that the IC issue is saying.

We disagree (some more aggressively than others ) with his way of lynching. END. STOP.

The only benefit I can even remotely see to this is for a scum buddying the IC. And again, the only reads you've given are in result of this issue. Namely, Mutely, Sakura and Jason (202) for not agreeing that jsmith's way of lynching is ideal.

So let me ask you this:

Do you agree with jsmith's way of voting?

And given all of the above, what is it specifically that you think you're doing that's in any way helpful?

[jsmith1234]

Thanks, elle. I don't have much to say regarding your post, and I personally disagree with a couple of parts, but I appreciate the coherent and detailed explanation.

[Mutleyddmc]

what do you disagree with?

[bubbajack8]

I'm creating them. Hah. I say something and they point me right fucking back.

I agree we shouldn't lynch on experience. I made a post on that. I voted him for reactions. I was starting to get them.

Uh my reasons on Mutley, and Jason, is that they want the IC dead. They don't care. Mutley wanted to PL him (AND DONT YOU FUCKING CIRCLE ME MUTLEY.) and Jason said doc shouldn't be on him.

[Sakura Hana]

Except that's not what you said earlier bubba, you said their reasons were to discredit the IC, not to get him dead.

[elleheathen]

I'm creating them.

Uh my reasons on Mutley, and Jason, is that they want the IC dead. They don't care. Mutley wanted to PL him (AND DONT YOU FUCKING CIRCLE ME MUTLEY.) and Jason said doc shouldn't be on him.

One, proved my point @ creating them and two:

...

[Mutleyddmc]

I seriously doubt bubba isn't scum or all the scum aren't on this wagon. I can't see scum not hammering this cos they wouldn't even come under scrutiny

[Mutleyddmc]

also for one last time I wasn't go for a PL. I want one in fact cos of stupidity, but I wouldn't go for one cos it would be stupid. almost as stupid as yourself. I'm supposed to be playing the VI yet you and j smith won't let me

[Mutleyddmc]

oh and bubba the fact that only you agree with what you say on the IC point and what it means tells you something (hint its not just cos they are scum disagreeing as more than 3 people disagree with you)

[jsmith1234]

Except that's not what you said earlier bubba, you said their reasons were to discredit the IC, not to get him dead.

I disagree. Yes he mentioned the discrediting point as one of his arguments. But he also talked about the scuminess of wanting/advocating the IC to die. First, he has argued that people who are fine with the IC dying are acting scummy. Second, he may also have argued that people who are trying to get the IC to die are acting scummy.

See:

Actually not an OMGUS. I already had said I thought he was scummy. His was an OMGUS.

I don't care how piss poor the IC is playing you NEVER say "I hope you die tonight" or "I wish we could lynch you"

You can attack his reasons in a nice manner I don't care. Saying "I wish I could lynch the fuck out of you" instead of arguing your point with him, is scummy.

Because it's idiotic, it's not town play at all. I'd rather be in a 3 way lylo with an IC then have to figure out which of the 2 people I think is scum. Saying you want him dead or policied isn't town.

You're words quite literally were "Can we lynch this guy for being stupid" That's calling for a PL.

bubba: can you give me the scum motivation behind mutley explicitly saying "I would want to lynch the IC just for being useless?"

He (And Jacob) Were attacking the IC, in an obvious attempt to discredit what he was saying.
He said no one said to lynch the IC, so I shoved his own comment in his face and he came up with that bullshit.
They also keep saying they want the IC dead, because then he can't accuse them either. It's all self preservation.

I'm not saying conf town = right Jesus.
It's scummy to not care if a clear dies, because then all his future arguments automatically don't matter.

omfg. Let me repeat myself 100 times.

1. IC is scumhunting.
2. Scum would want IC to die if he is right so that he can no longer tunnel that person.
3. Doesn't agree with you =/= useless.

I think bubba only slightly leans mafia right now, but with some condescending arguing going on, it's difficult for me to get more useful reads on him or others arguing with him.

[bubbajack8]

Except that's not what you said earlier bubba, you said their reasons were to discredit the IC, not to get him dead.

Dead = All future arguments discredited. Already been said.

I'm creating them.

Uh my reasons on Mutley, and Jason, is that they want the IC dead. They don't care. Mutley wanted to PL him (AND DONT YOU FUCKING CIRCLE ME MUTLEY.) and Jason said doc shouldn't be on him.

One, proved my point @ creating them and two:

...

Uh you created that one. I've already said all that shit and you said I didn't have reasons.

also for one last time I wasn't go for a PL. I want one in fact cos of stupidity, but I wouldn't go for one cos it would be stupid. almost as stupid as yourself. I'm supposed to be playing the VI yet you and j smith won't let me

Fuck you. I said don't reply. I'm not doing this.

[elleheathen]

Uh my reasons on Mutley, and Jason, is that they want the IC dead. They don't care. Mutley wanted to PL him (AND DONT YOU FUCKING CIRCLE ME MUTLEY.) and Jason said doc shouldn't be on him.

One, proved my point @ creating them and two:

...

Uh you created that one. I've already said all that shit and you said I didn't have reasons.

Missing the point, yet again - or being deliberately obtuse so as not to answer the actual question. I've made it pretty clear but let me break it down simpler for you.

This is me saying I don't think you're doing anything helpful:

With that said, I understand that a town is less likely to care if they die than a scum might be but that should be because we have done all we can to try and convince town that we're town and provided them with all the information that we can from that point - but I don't feel like you're actually doing that.

This is your reply, equally unhelpful - not to mention, incorrect:

I have attempted to help. You people don't give a shit.

Trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, especially in light of the 'blue blood' issue and the 'clear', I go back and reread the thread and ISO you to see what it is that you've provided that's so helpful to us. But alas, all I can find is what I've already stated:

Besides arguing the Innocent Child issue to the grave

He says he has but reading his ISO, I don't see much of anything besides statements saying that he's town in the midst of a RWARANGRYCAPSPARTYRWAR.

So I give the reasons why these two things are

not

particularly helpful, to which you come back with:

Uh my reasons on Mutley, and Jason, is that they want the IC dead. They don't care. Mutley wanted to PL him (AND DONT YOU FUCKING CIRCLE ME MUTLEY.) and Jason said doc shouldn't be on him.

All of that was me asking what you've done BESIDES the ones I stated (and expressed exactly why I didn't think they were helpful at all) and you come back (ie. circling) to the same damn thing.

Which, in itself, proves my point. What have you done that's helpful? Nothing.

Done with this. Now to find your scumbuddy.