Death's Diner -Game Over-

[Titus]

Baezu, cops could investigate dead people (supposing that's legal) but they would lose informatiion on the living.

To settle this,

@Mod, can cops investigate the confirmed dead?

[4nxi3ty]

Amrun

(6)

- Titus, zMuffinMan, Aunt Jemina, Natisrasha, roflcopter, Metal Sonic
zMuffinMan (2) - BROseidon, Slandaar
Natisrasha (4) - oriole, PeregrineV, Baezu, Rift Adrift
PeregrineV (4) - Amrun, Ghostly Penguin,

Romeo

,

Juliet

Not Voting (2) - ArcAngel9, StubbsKVM

With 16 alive (+2 votes), it takes 10 to lynch.
(expired on 2013-08-25 17:07:50)

@Mod, can cops investigate the confirmed dead?

Dead players can not be investigated.

[Titus]

Ugh both Romeo and Juliet are not on the Amrun train. Perhaps that train needs reevaluation.

@Bro, you see why Rofl shouldn't share his lead. Is there anyway you can explain that to me? I find Rofl's withholding very suspicious IMO.

[Titus]

*are not = are now

[Titus]

Nevermind had it right the first time. My brain is leaving me.

[BROseidon]

I would rather not share. Rofl should share his results in the QT as close to actions being locked as possible.

[Ghostly Penguin]

No, because the rest of the cops need his info to evaluate their own target choices. Those of us acting in good faith know we're town. We probably all have at least one other town read within the dethy. Just going off that, we can start to whittle down scenarios, but that takes time, and we need to be able to send in investigations ourselves. The most rofl could reveal is whether you, BRO, are known paranoid. That would be irritating, as scum would have a two in three shot of hitting a useful investigative role, but it also makes you conf-town and would let us find the insane cop (who would have found scum night one as a result) and consider the day one events leading up to the dethy reveal more completely. To elaborate on the insane cop, even if scum hit said insane cop with the NK (which would be one in two, since we can't be insane) we have his investigation on record. The other three would be forced to report back innocent results on you, either as sane/naive or as scum masquerading.

Him not revealing his result until effectively day three is decidedly sub-optimal play.

--Penguin

[BROseidon]

The most rofl could reveal is whether you, BRO, are known paranoid

Or we can WIFOM the fuck out of this point for better long-term results.

[Titus]

@BRO, I get your probably town but you are playing suboptimally right now. Town needs the most information it can get. I doubt you are psychic and know what Rofl actually got. If you can tell us why you want to withhold the reason from the rest of the town, I might be more understanding. Yet, reasons is typically a bad excuse.

I know I used ~reasons~ to avoid saying what I did to Tiphaine. That is because I couldn't tell the truth about their being a bomb on Tiphaine. I am not seeing a different rationale there.

[Titus]

The most rofl could reveal is whether you, BRO, are known paranoid

Or we can WIFOM the fuck out of this point for better long-term results.

@Ghostly, why couldn't Bro be sane?

[BROseidon]

@BRO, I get your probably town but you are playing suboptimally right now. Town needs the most information it can get. I doubt you are psychic and know what Rofl actually got. If you can tell us why you want to withhold the reason from the rest of the town, I might be more understanding. Yet, reasons is typically a bad excuse.

It's bad for rofl to potentially reveal me as paranoid. Keeping his result secret prevents scum from knowing what I am for sure.

[Rift Adrift]

@BRO, I get your probably town but you are playing suboptimally right now. Town needs the most information it can get. I doubt you are psychic and know what Rofl actually got. If you can tell us why you want to withhold the reason from the rest of the town, I might be more understanding. Yet, reasons is typically a bad excuse.

I know I used ~reasons~ to avoid saying what I did to Tiphaine. That is because I couldn't tell the truth about their being a bomb on Tiphaine. I am not seeing a different rationale there.

It's not like the info will be lost forever if rofl doesn''t put it in the game thread today. If he posts it in the dethy QT night 2 (and I fully expect he will) then all of town will know it in the fullness of time (e.g., probably day 3).

[Ghostly Penguin]

The most rofl could reveal is whether you, BRO, are known paranoid

Or we can WIFOM the fuck out of this point for better long-term results.

@Ghostly, why couldn't Bro be sane?

Key word 'whether.' Based on other reads I have, I personally doubt it. It remains possible, as my reads aren't error-proof. However, if rofl reveals an innocent result, BRO must be paranoid.

The other thing I don't love about rofl waiting to reveal is that if he's scum, it gives him time to consult with fellow scum overnight and make an optimal claim for his faction's long-term plan. As I tend to doubt that he anticipated us narrowing down our personal sanity to sane or naive if he's scum, and so whatever fake result he might have had would need to be adjusted.

BRO, what about the part where if you're confirmed to be paranoid we can get a scum result by finding the insane cop who then had to have found scum last night?

--Penguin

[Ghostly Penguin]

And hey, Titus, how's about you take another look at PV knowing that Romeo and Juliet are voting there? Do some of that reevaluating you were considering.

--Penguin

[Titus]

@Rift, I cannot see the point in withholding though. Yeah, the information won't be lost but still, I'm not a fan of withholding for ~reasons~ unless absolutely necessary.

@Ghostly, again you are supposing that BRO cannot be insane? If you get an innocent response, then Bro's possibilities are insane/paranoid. Yet, you exclude insane. Why?

Your rationale is right on the refusal to claim, that is what worries me.

I do intend to do that reevaluation. It takes some time. I'll tell you when I am done. Patience.

[BROseidon]

BRO, what about the part where if you're confirmed to be paranoid we can get a scum result by finding the insane cop who then had to have found scum last night?

You're thinking about this in the short term. I'm thinking about it in the long-term.

My priority is not resolving this as quickly as possible, my priority is milking as much information out of this as possible.

[Titus]

BRO, what about the part where if you're confirmed to be paranoid we can get a scum result by finding the insane cop who then had to have found scum last night?

You're thinking about this in the short term. I'm thinking about it in the long-term.

My priority is not resolving this as quickly as possible, my priority is milking as much information out of this as possible.

Elaborate please.

[Rift Adrift]

@Rift, I cannot see the point in withholding though. Yeah, the information won't be lost but still, I'm not a fan of withholding for ~reasons~ unless absolutely necessary.

~reasons~ less data for scum going into Night 2, when it could help them target their night kill tonight.

[Natirasha]

I support rofl holding his results, if that's any consideration. We can't do anything really with the information anyways.

[BROseidon]

Elaborate please.

I do not doubt that the Dethy will resolve itself, so I want the remaining town to have as much usable information as possible once that happens.

[Baezu]

The most rofl could reveal is whether you, BRO, are known paranoid

Or we can WIFOM the fuck out of this point for better long-term results.

@Ghostly, why couldn't Bro be sane?

Key word 'whether.' Based on other reads I have, I personally doubt it. It remains possible, as my reads aren't error-proof. However, if rofl reveals an innocent result,

BRO must be paranoid

.

The other thing I don't love about rofl waiting to reveal is that if he's scum, it gives him time to consult with fellow scum overnight and make an optimal claim for his faction's long-term plan. As I tend to doubt that he anticipated us narrowing down our personal sanity to sane or naive if he's scum, and so whatever fake result he might have had would need to be adjusted.

BRO, what about the part where if you're confirmed to be paranoid we can get a scum result by finding the insane cop who then had to have found scum last night?

--Penguin

If BRO is confirmed paranoid, scum would probably not need to kill him since results he gets are all the same. I'm not sure why confirming BRO as paranoid is so troublesome to rofl. The only reason I can see for holding out is scum-motivated, but up until now I haven't seen rofl as scum. In fact, I still don't think he's scum. I'd like to wrap my head around why rofl is waiting and also why BRO is encouraging that.

[Titus]

The most rofl could reveal is whether you, BRO, are known paranoid

Or we can WIFOM the fuck out of this point for better long-term results.

@Ghostly, why couldn't Bro be sane?

Key word 'whether.' Based on other reads I have, I personally doubt it. It remains possible, as my reads aren't error-proof. However, if rofl reveals an innocent result,

BRO must be paranoid

.

The other thing I don't love about rofl waiting to reveal is that if he's scum, it gives him time to consult with fellow scum overnight and make an optimal claim for his faction's long-term plan. As I tend to doubt that he anticipated us narrowing down our personal sanity to sane or naive if he's scum, and so whatever fake result he might have had would need to be adjusted.

BRO, what about the part where if you're confirmed to be paranoid we can get a scum result by finding the insane cop who then had to have found scum last night?

--Penguin

If BRO is confirmed paranoid, scum would probably not need to kill him since results he gets are all the same. I'm not sure why confirming BRO as paranoid is so troublesome to rofl. The only reason I can see for holding out is scum-motivated, but up until now I haven't seen rofl as scum. In fact, I still don't think he's scum. I'd like to wrap my head around why rofl is waiting and also why BRO is encouraging that.

I cannot understand that Bro/rofl action paradigm. However, Ghostly's statements implying about Bro not being sane suggest to me that Ghostly is trying to position himself as the sane cop.

[Ghostly Penguin]

@Rift, I cannot see the point in withholding though. Yeah, the information won't be lost but still, I'm not a fan of withholding for ~reasons~ unless absolutely necessary.

@Ghostly, again you are supposing that BRO cannot be insane? If you get an innocent response, then Bro's possibilities are insane/paranoid. Yet, you exclude insane. Why?

Your rationale is right on the refusal to claim, that is what worries me.

I do intend to do that reevaluation. It takes some time. I'll tell you when I am done. Patience.

...it's like three posts from PV. It's not complicated.

Apparently you're not following. Maybe I'm not laying out my thoughts clearly enough. BRO got a guilty. No one else that we know of did. We know there's a paranoid cop. That person only gets guilties. IF rofl got an innocent, BRO is the only possible dethy member who can be the paranoid cop. That means: a) he is confirmed town, aside from any speculation from Zoidberg's flip, and b) whoever the insane cop is (rofl, Slandaar, MS, NOT us due to our innocent result on town) found scum last night, as their innocent is an effective guilty. Those who can still be insane cops target BRO. Whoever gets back a guilty is therefore insane. If in the same night scum kills BRO, it's irrelevant to results. If they kill the one of {rofl, Slandaar, MS} who is naive/sane, scum either returns an innocent, confirming the third as insane, or also sends in guilty, and narrows scum in the dethy down to two people. Sending in an innocent here restricts scum to either themselves or us, and I know which of those is true. If they kill the insane one, we know that person's sanity and we get their Night One found-scum anyways.

This only applies if rofl got an innocent result. If he got a guilty, it doesn't. But it's a great plan if we can determine that BRO is paranoid, plus it decreases the number of relevant targets for any protective roles to choose from. If rofl delays sharing his results, the dethy can't implement it.

BRO says he's thinking long-term. For now we can assume one scum team from one NK. Likely no more than five scum. One's lynched, one's in the dethy, one could be nailed in the above scenario. Even if we lose one legit cop tonight, we still have another one, and there are likely other useful PRs around. If we can't find two scum in 16 - (d2 lynch) - (n2 kill) - (insane scum result) - (n3 kill) - (5 dethy) = remaining options of seven players, discounting any other possible investigation results from sane/protected insane cop, we're screwed anyways. And that's assuming we don't lynch correctly today, and the dethy don't overlap with the NK targets. So it could be closer to one or two scum in nine, which leaves minimum two mislynches' breathing room.

How much more long-term do you want, seriously?

--Penguin

[Titus]

How about an explanation that explains that the deathy must have naive/paranoid/sane and insane? Why is that a given? I've never played with a deathy before.

Bro may be the only paranoid one, but you're jumping the gun by assuming he is.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I don't know if we're sane or naive. Obviously you have to consider that we could also be scum. (Which you're doing quite well, kudos!) If rofl got a guilty, BRO can be sane. If we investigate Amrun and get a guilty, we know that we're sane, Amrun is scum, and BRO is either paranoid or scum. An innocent from us on Amrun tells us nothing. But that's down the line.

In the meantime, our (mine, really, Ghostlin might think my plan is horrendous) statements are considering how the situation can be optimized if BRO is shown to be paranoid. That has nothing to do with scenarios in which BRO cannot be confirmed as paranoid and so his sanity/alignment would remain in doubt.

--Penguin