Open 528: The Room of DOOM! GAME OVER

[YamiNoKira]

Hey doctor pepper: rule 3 says even the recently lynched can talk at night, but the next rule says that no dead players can post. Could you clarify?

The recently lynched can talk during twilight (the time after the hammer vote and before the thread lock), but cannot post at all after their role has been revealed. Also, the mod is much more likely to see your question if you bold it.

What's your favorite Pet and why?

I like cats! They're awesome.

Our odds as town aren't that great at first I have to say. Each person assuredly has 4/11 chance to lynch a scum today. Admittedly it's not THAT bad as that's just over a third.

That's actually better than most 11-player setups, and since we have two weeks to discuss and form reads on players, we have a rather good shot at lynching scum.

So I have another question: with two mafia factions, does that mean we essentially have two kills per night? If that's true then God this should be interesting.

That's right. We will probably have two deaths each Night, unless both factions target the same player. We really need to lynch scum to have a good shot at winning.

[YamiNoKira]

And since we are asking random questions, I suppose I'll try that as well. Do you all think it would be logical for the Masons to all claim Day 1 and why or why not?

Definitely not. With two kills per Night, the only benefit claiming D1 would do is give us 3 less for our D1c lynch pool while sacrificing 2 conf-townies during our first Night (unless both factions kill the same Mason, which still isn't worth the benefits).

Also, under what circumstances do you think Masons should claim in this setup?

Either when we're about to lynch a Mason (in which case only the one Mason should claim) or in later days where narrowing down the lynch pool gives us autowin or close to autowin. Otherwise we're just giving bait to the scum factions.

[YamiNoKira]

Now, then... hello, Brian Skies! Fancy meeting you here.

VOTE: Skelda
I like bandwagons.

So if I did this...

VOTE: Skelda

...you would like it?

[YamiNoKira]

That is what I was thinking, but the thing is, it isn't likely for all three masons to survive the night, as there are three chances for them to die. And, once a Mason is dead, I think the legitimacy of all Mason claims will be put into check, since there will then be enough scum to fakeclaim Mason and even if the real Masons stepped forward, we would have no way of telling them apart. Of course, this would have to be done in a lylo sort of situation, since the instant a true Mason flipped Mason we would know who was lying, but I suppose it is in the town's best interest to try and keep all of the Masons alive for as long as possible.

Yeah, if a Mason dies, one (or both) factions can fakeclaim Mason. But outing Masons now to prevent that is not a good idea.

As for the other part, I think it depends on the situation and how much information we have at that point.

I'm sure scum quite like it.

Mmm, perhaps.

I don't know about scum, but I certainly like it.

Eh... why?

[YamiNoKira]

I like this BW better. Tell me what you think of it, phokdapolees.

VOTE: Dessew

[YamiNoKira]

VOTE: Saki

I needed that out of my system.

Stubbs.

That's all you have to say? I know we just started, but really? Nothing else?

This is the reason. Especially the beginning and the end.

I'm afraid I don't understand.

VOTE: Dessew seems like a nice starting point to me. But any more votes on you too soon and I'm unvoting.

So... what's the point of this vote? You just wanna bw but not lynch? *reads next post* Yeah, that. Kinda.

Ladies, ladies, you're both pretty.

I didn't even notice but Saki is here as well. Nice to meet you! I fear you already!

I don't feel like dessew has really done anything scummy. Yet. Well except

Eh

I mean calm your horses the games been around for a day, we got time to get it done right and lynch scum.

What do you propose? Not question/pressure dessew? We do have two weeks... but we need to start now and in full force. Inactivity kills games.

I'm not going to tunnel him, but I still don't see the town motivation for bandwagoning this early just for the sake of bandwagoning, even if it is just to cause pressure and something about that "I don't know about scum, but..." statement didn't sit right with me.

What in the world is the purpose of your vote, then?

I like my vote to be on people I find scummy

Then why would you unvote after 3+ votes?

This early on, it's all a bunch of BS.

The point is to

generate content

so it

isn't

BS. If you aren't helping to generate content, then you aren't helping town. You will only be "policy lynched" if you continue to not help generate content... which shouldn't be a problem, right?

[YamiNoKira]

Idk how to put it, it rubs me all kind of wrong.

Then why not vote?

[YamiNoKira]

P-Edit: Yami, I guess what I meant was that I didn't want the bandwagon going any further than that since it was, at its core, pretty random. Partly poor wording on my part. And I agree with you about the generating content bit.

WHY DID YOU VOTE? Please answer that question.

But as of now it's not very townish to me.

I don't feel like dessew has really done anything scummy.

This is very wish-washy. What is your read?

Not gonna vote cause its too early for my liking,

No. I really dislike this. You have no reason not to vote: you only have your voice and your vote, and if you aren't using them, you aren't helping anyone.

The point is I don't want things going until EVERYONEs on this thread, so we have more logical reasoning behind everything.

Players' inactivity is

not

an excuse to not "get things going". Ever. Let the mod deal with inactives; you are here, so you can contribute.

[YamiNoKira]

If you've never played with Saki before, then you probably wouldn't understand.

I don't have an issue with the post itself, but it's an RVS vote and contributes absolutely nothing to the game.

I voted because I thought his behavior was odd and I wanted to express my suspicion, but seeing as he had rapidly just gotten two votes, I wasn't ready for a fourth too soon. What more reason did I need?

I just wanted you to answer the question. You seemed to jump around the question despite being asked in posts 26 and 31 what the purpose of your vote was for.

Alright alright, I'll get on. I just get nervous that half of the people prob haven't even seen this thread but hm

vote dessew

Now it's your turn. What is your read on dessew? You've voted, but you haven't explained why (your "read" is not very clear and post 40 looks like you're voting only because you were bring pressured).

Sorry thought that was of no substance but yeah whoops won't happen again.

To put it simply,

never

refer to an ongoing game

at all

.

not only do I not suspect Dessew much anymore

We

just

went over why you voted for dessew, so what changed in your read? Details please.

[YamiNoKira]

I don't suspect Dessew any less

Is that not what you just said? You don't suspect Dessew much anymore? Either your read changed or it didn't.

Why are you getting so hung up over me changing my vote to create a little drama, anyway?

I don't particularly care where your vote is right now. I want to know why you "don't suspect Dessew much anymore". That was part of your reasoning for changing your vote, and I want to know what you mean by that.

If you understand what the RVS and RVS vote is, then get over it. Every game on this forum pretty much starts in this stage until people find something to work off of.

This has nothing to do with RVS; I've already said I have no issue with the post itself. However, there was more that could have been commented on, and the

one post

that player made ignored what happened so far and made absolutely no attempt on trying to contribute (outside of RVS).

[YamiNoKira]

P-Edit: Yami, my suspicion of Dessew was weak to begin with, and I was more or less just voting so that my vote didn't rot in my possession. I thought I made my weak suspicion clear when I first voted, but you seem to be getting hung up on something that just isn't a big deal. But the point is, I told you that I was going to Unvote if people started voting Dessew, and I've explained why when I first did it. Why are you getting so irritated when it happens?

And for the record, my read changed by comparison. Period.

I want you to be clear with your reasons for voting and your reads. You voted for Dessew because Dessew's behavior was odd and you wanted to express your opinion. Great. But when you changed votes (please note that I have no issue with where your vote is now, just what you said when you changed votes), you said that you do not suspect Dessew much anymore. That implies your read changed. I wanted to know why. Your only answer is it "changed by comparison". That makes no sense to me. If your read didn't change - you still find Dessew's behavior slightly odd- then why would you say you don't suspect Dessew much anymore? Either you are trying to defend your vote change by giving vague reasons (maf-motivated) or your read actually changed and you wanted to share it (town-motivated and I want to know exactly why your read changed).

[YamiNoKira]

@Brian Skies

Okay, I get that. I would still like -Kubbs- to contribute more than RVS, especially at that point when there was at least something -Kubbs- could have commented on.

@Skelda

I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of my questioning. ...I also think I'm looking for more reasoning than there is. I can accept that you're not as concerned with Dessew now that someone else has come along.

► P-Edit: Yeah, I get it.

---

Now then...

-Kubbs-:

Made one post unrelated to anything in the thread so far. Not very helpful, but not alignment-related, either.

Brian Skies:

Town. Explains his thoughts on various topics and not afraid to confront me. I'm slightly curious about his defense of -Kubbs-'s post, but I have no reason to believe it is scum-motivated at this point.

Dessew:

26 showed thoughts along the same line as mine, but I still have no idea what he meant in 19. Definitely needs to be more involved in this conversation.

phokdapolees:

Needs to comment on what's happened since his last post.

Skelda:

Town. Despite my questioning, he has responded well and is still trying to contribute to the game elsewhere (as in providing reads of other people).

[YamiNoKira]

I probably shouldn't be trying to do this so late, but anyway, more questions...

JKLM

Was there any point to your vote in post 7? Also, based on 12, do you believe scum are more likely to try to cut off RVS?

I don't feel like dessew has really done anything scummy. Yet. Well except

Eh

What were you trying to say here?

It seems oddly reminiscent to me as both of them don't seem particularly town, but idk.

They don't? Explain?

You aren't really allowed to use the newb card here, that was better left in the newb games themselves.

Do you really think by mentioning at the beginning of the day that it is Skelda's first non-Newbie game, he was using the "newb card"?

[YamiNoKira]

So what do you guys think about a skelda/Dessew scum team?

I think Skelda's town, so it's unlikely imo.

I don't like skelda voting then saying he will unvote if anybody else's votes Dessew. What is the point of your vote then?

Although I agree with the line of questioning... it's already been asked and answered. If you aren't happy with Skelda's explanation so far, what about it do you disagree with?

I really should have just FoSed Dessew, but that isn't my style. But you all need to stop fixating on it and move on. It is irritating me, and I feel as though I've given my defense on all of those points already. What about them don't you find adequate?

The issue came when you (heavily implied?) that your read changed, but the only thing that happened was a better target for your vote.

I don't like how Skelda was fishing for Masons in his post I quoted. Yeah, sure, all of them should breadcrumb, so scum can easily find all of them...

I'm just going to say that I do agree with this - it did seem more like a scum-motivated move (especially since scum can breadcrumb just as easily, making it useless to everyone

except

scum).

Also, I don't see why would JKLM act so indecisive as scum.

To avoid having to give clear reads that can be used against him later? It's fine if he's indecisive, but using that as an excuse to not give clear reads (even after being called out on it) is not okay.

"I don't know about scum, but...": I wanted to be a little theatrical.

Now answer the other part: why did you state that you liked my bw on an RVS vote?

What possible motivation

did you have to post that?

It's okay that you want to use all our time until deadline, but calling out somebody only because he made only one post (his RV) in the first 24 hours of the game is way more than necessary.

Okay, I went too far. I felt that since I had found something game-related to talk about (setup theory and Dessew's bw), just posting an RVS post and ignoring all of the game-related content was something to be called out on. Admittedly, it was still page 1 and nothing at that point really required anyone to respond to it.

[YamiNoKira]

it would be possible to prove a Mason claim later even when only one Mason is alive. I see nothing wrong with that.

I disagree, since scum can do that (breadcrumb) just as easily.

That's all you have to say? I know we just started, but really? Nothing else?

Does it bother you that much? It was page 1...

See my last post.

[YamiNoKira]

Let us suppose two flipped Masons are dead and the town is in lylo. Are you telling me that if the third Mason was able to identify very subtle Mason crumbs by his two dead partners and give his own crumb he wouldn't be nearly proven Mason?

You have a point when it comes to identifying other Masons' crumbs (assuming no one found them yet). However, if those breadcrumbs were already seen/pointed out, and both Mason claims had their own breadcrumbs, it wouldn't be very helpful (unless all of the real Masons breadcrumbed in a very specific way).

Especially [if] you want to be pro town.

I don't like the way you worded this; if you are doing something specifically to seem pro-town, you are probably scum.

Otherwise I need to go back and look over what's been said again and think some more before I open my mouth again.

I need you to start actually talking about your reads on users and actively scumhunting. We're on page 3 now (well, 4), so there shouldn't be much to go over right now.

I know it takes away from the pacing to ask a question but, what are the major benefits of being a hydra, as well as downsides? I just want to get an understanding.

The main benefit is being able to talk to another player privately, which is a huge advantage. Having another player to post for you and the fact that you can't really blame a hydra for differing reads also gives them an advantage.

It would make sense that scum like to cut off RVS as early as they can as THEY want to make the bandwagon, whether it be for bussing OR for mislynching early on.

But wouldn't town players also want to cut off RVS so they can actually scumhunt and play the game? Wouldn't Mafia rather let the town continue randomvoting and just sit by while not doing anything (and have an excuse to do so)?

While technically speaking this is a moot point, it is much easier for scum to act pro town in this set up as they naturally have to hunt down the other mafia. I'm not saying that scum don't act scummy still, or that townish players are scum as well, that's be stupid. What I AM saying is that scum can easily be more subtle. That's the word, subtle.

Yes, that's true, scum do have to scumhunt for the other faction, instead of just defending themselves or purposely trying to lynch a townie. I'm not sure why you brought this up, though...

I'll skim over a third time to make sure I didn't miss anything else. Still formulating GOOD early reads, not rubbish ones for pressure.

I look forward to it; we can't do anything until you and the other players start actually scumhunting.

[YamiNoKira]

I showed that my RV turned into a serious vote.

Woah. It did? Why did that happen? Why didn't you actually say that instead of just saying you liked me bandwagoning?

Votes aren't for expressing suspicion.

Actually, I would say that they are. Yes, they are used to get people lynched, but if they aren't for expressing suspicion or pressure, than no one would be voting until later in the Day when you actually have someone you want to get lynched.

[YamiNoKira]

VOTE: Mutleyddmc

I have a feeling you're just baiting me, but I need something more from you than RVS right now. I'm not opposed to Lynch all (Active) Lurkers.

[YamiNoKira]

Yes, it did. I found something scummy. And we've got a misunderstanding here, I like the overall bandwagon. The more people we have, the more I like it.

Are you referring to this specific bandwagon? Because from my PoV, it looked like you were just happy with someone bandwagoning on an RVS vote, not "this person deserves more votes for being scummy".

You know, it's scummy as hell to threaten with Lynch all Lurkers.

*shrug* I believe that if you're just going to come into a thread and not participate, you are anti-town at best and deserve a vote. What about that do you believe to be scum-motivated?

[YamiNoKira]

It's not really lurking, but I'm not exactly sure why he prefers to do that but he just does. I get the policy but it really can't be applied to him IMO.

You don't have to post walls, but doing RVS after all of this conversation isn't helpful at all.

Like the mafia tactic to seem busy when giving out these questions but never actually answering them. I hope you do answer them in the next four pages though or else my vote will probably go here.

What? Why are you concerned with JKLM not answering his RQS question?

This is mainly based off of these two buddying posts and only focusing on Skelda, who just happens to be JKLM's target at the moment, and not discussing anything that Dessew stated.

That's not buddying. That's me jumping on a BW to see how phokdapolees reacted.

Why did you say this?

Because we know each other from EpicMafia.

Is there something wrong with being uncertain?

That's not what my comment was about.

It really isn't that hard to see why Skelda would vote Dessew.

That's not what my comment was about.

You posted this 6 hours after Saki posted and before half of the game has posted. Can you stop being this butthurt over a few posts? It'll actually help, as much as that seems like a hardhit criticism.

Yes, yes, I get it. I don't approve of it but calling it out wasn't necessary.

Claim hydra heads now please.

What?

It's still only Day 3 of the game.

True. (Assuming you meant Page 3.)

Also, I definitely do not like the post about grasping at straws, simply because doesn't it help the town to keep everyone talking and try to get people to reveal themselves? How does that hurt us, bringing up little things that are likely of no significance?

That's not quite what the point of Hiraki's comment was.

[YamiNoKira]

What? Why are you concerned with JKLM not answering his RQS question?

Two-fold. A) It shows that he's just making himself busy. B) It shows that there is actually no reason for the RQS, since he didn't answer it.

If it's an RQS and he knows the "correct" responses, then where's his correct response? Not that it matters anymore since he's going out.

I see, though I'm not sure that's particularly scum-motivated.

But meanwhile, you've said nothing negative about JKLM at this time and were much more friendly to him than anyone else in the game. It's not a huge thing going as of now but it's notable if a flip occurs on JKLM.

This may be true, but I would say that for the most part JKLM has only been doing IIoA and being defensive, not very helpful but also not doing anything particularly scum-motivated (with the exception of IIoA and being defensive, and we'll see with the replacement whether or not that was scum-motivated or just the way JKLM handled the pressure). My BW at that point and my treatment of JKLM are not correlated.

Are you telling me that you made ISO 11 and ISO 12?

...what? I'm definitely not a hydra.

*actually posts*

So town! ... Welcome to the game.

[YamiNoKira]

This may be true, but I would say that for the most part JKLM has only been doing IIoA and being defensive, not very helpful but also not doing anything particularly scum-motivated (with the exception of IIoA and being defensive, and we'll see with the replacement whether or not that was scum-motivated or just the way JKLM handled the pressure).

Just want to tell that I lol'd. "He hasn't done anything scummy, except what he has. Oh, and that's what he mainly has done."

Yeah, yeah, that was horrible wording. But being scummy and having scum-motivation are two different things, and it's the latter that I'm not convinced of (despite the former being true).

[YamiNoKira]

I see, though I'm not sure that's particularly scum-motivated.

It's definitely not town-aligned.

I'm not sure that's even alignment-relevant.

[YamiNoKira]

I'm not sure that's even alignment-relevant.

It's anti-town which is null or scummy at best which means it's relevant.

I'm going to challenge that and say it's not anti-town. It's not pro-town in the least but I don't believe that it is somehow (specifically) scum-motivated, especially early on D1.

[YamiNoKira]

Looking busy is something that scum like to do. To confirm that he's looking busy and not just actually trying something neato, there'd have to be a reason for the RQS (never given) and he would need to answer his own question.

P.S. The RQS had nothing going for it. It's almost always a scum tactic.

Alright. There's not much point in continuing this argument; I see your point but I disagree with you.

Because you easily tell if someone is lying about liking a pet.

That's the first thought I had when reading that post...

[YamiNoKira]

My vote on Mutley is obviously not very useful. I'm half-tempted to just hammer Skelda for D2 reactions, but I'm not that stupid. I'm not entirely sure what to do with it, though. No active player (Skelda/Dessew/Brian Skies (kinda)) is particularly scummy, and votes on inactive players aren't very useful. Meh. I feel like pushing for a lynch since nothing's going on, but we have 9 days and lynching early is generally not seen as pro-town.

Hikari, how confident are you in a Skelda lynch?

[YamiNoKira]

VOTE: Viera Assassin

[YamiNoKira]

And voting inactive players can be useful if you provide enough pressure to force them to produce content (i.e. multiple votes).

Only if they are here to see it (and care). Otherwise, I agree.

Re: Mutley

All of this "it's just his playstyle" thing needs to stop. If he isn't here providing content of D1 with the rest of us, he's no better than any other lurker (such as Viera, who has 3(?) votes already for lurking).

Unfortunately, this will mean that a majority of the players are Null, as there are no significant happenings or events as of yet.

VOTE: Metal Sonic

That was extremely useless. If you find a majority of players "null", then

do something about it.

It's page 7 and at least the active players have posted enough that you should have at least some sort of read on them.
P-Edit: What Hiraki said.

[YamiNoKira]

Early bus on Saki?

When you are accusing people of bussing early D1, you're doing something wrong. Unless you feel like making an actual case on me, your vote and reads are meaningless to me.

That said, will you elaborate? If you think I'm the scummiest of everyone, considering I've posted a lot (at least early on), you should be able to do more than one line of explanation.

Just be glad you're even getting that much. It's not indicative of the slot (same issue with Mutley).

Are you okay with this, though?

[YamiNoKira]

Redelphic, please answer my question/request.

I know Mutley and this is how he plays. I don't know VA and I don't understand why you would replace in only to completely ignore game discussion.

Is that not what Mutley is doing?

I love how you are all totally misreading my reads, I should have never posted them; they are how I take notes and I shouldn't have expected you to understand them.

Maybe you should try to explain them? Trying to retract your reads and saying we can't understand them doesn't help you at all.

There is nothing wrong with posting reads. People are going to challenge you. It's how you defend those reads and react to those attacks that are going to affect how other people read you.

That's what I was trying to say, kinda.

I'm still wary.

What was your read on Hiraki based on?

Anyway, I will re-read this thread from where I left off after my first push; I'm sure I'll have more questions once I actually go through this thread.

[YamiNoKira]

Does this feel like a person who has a firm grasp on the game to you?

You mean how VA's and Mutley's activity are nearly the same? I'm still waiting on an answer about that as well.

Yami, the thing that stood out to me the most and put me on edge was the sheer amount of questions that you have been asking. It is something that I have seen scum use to avoid truly scumhunting while still appearing to help town. If you iso you it is easy to see a pattern, and while you did go back and forth with some of the questions I never felt you were truly interested in them. I counted close to 50 questions being asked for the entire game, and I really don't see that as town motivated when there is hardly any follow through. Call it gut, but I read it as scummy on my first read through.

Fair enough, although I should mention that it is mainly a playstyle cause, not a scum-motivated cause. Now why didn't you mention this at all when you first called me out?

This is a big no no to me if you are town, I don't think buddying in any game is useful other than for town to find scum.

What makes you think this is buddying in the first place?

This came off scummy to me as someone who is looking for an easy lynch. First, that hammer thing was weird at the beginning since you obviously were thinking of a vote without even checking the vote log. Second, after saying votes on inactives are useless and scummy you immediately vote an inactive player.

I did check the vote log (I think). As for my vote on VA, VA had *just* made a second fluff post: that's not inactivity, that's active lurking and specifically ignoring the game and not contributing, which is

scummy

. I think activity is a huge factor in games, and yes, I will push for a lynch on an active lurker unless I have a specific reason not to (such as an active player that I have a scum read on).

This, however, is pushing.

Pushing, yes, but reasonable (in this particular case).

Also known as: I don't like these things so let me complain about them but micmic how badly in context that he's doing and just try to make myself look better :)

And now you are just being hypocritical.

Can you explain those terms? I feel bad for asking (because I usually don't), but I can't find their meanings online.

I don't know if this has been answered yet, but...

TvT: Town vs Town, TvS: Town vs Scum, SvS: Scum vs Scum

You should refresh your list when it's beneficial, not just because you feel like it needs to be done.

You're taking that statement too literally, imo.

If he flips town, though, we are totally lynching Red.

Careful with setting up lynches, there.

This is not a town thought.

That depends on how you interpret it.

[YamiNoKira]

Correct, and that is how I interpret it. What's your point?

Do you have any particular reason to interpret it like this, other than thinking Dessew isn't town?

There is no reasonable pushing. Pushing is misrep.

I don't quite understand.

And now you are just being hypocritical.

Huh?

You accused notscience of "pushing words down peoples throat" (in ns's words), but twisting his words and giving them a negative connotation is no better than what you are accusing ns of.

Well I had limited time and access to my computer so I couldn't make a wall, I decided to simply copy/paste my quick notes to get me started into the game. I believe that I did mention it briefly in my original post but did not elaborate on it.

Ah, I see.

Just the way you said it in replying to his vote. When two players seem too comfortable with each other it puts me on edge and makes me wonder why they are trusting each other. I consider it something that scum do more often because it pollutes my reads for both since they are now tied together.

I definitely wouldn't say we were "comfortable with each other" or "trusting each other". The whole point of my vote was to test what phokdapolees would do after having made that statement - not just to blindly sheep or whatever it is that makes you think it had anything in specific with phokdapolees and not the statement itself.

VOTE: Viera Assassin

Please either replace out or start playing. I'm not letting you live through this Day if nothing changes.

[YamiNoKira]

Do you have any particular reason to interpret it like this, other than thinking Dessew isn't town?

No, you are misunderstanding what I mean. I am saying that what Dessew is saying doesn't contribute to someone being town not Dessew himself isn't town.

Oh, I see. Nevermind, then.

I like post 301. I will rethink my read on Skelda.

304: Brian is still town.

As for VA, there is nothing alignment indicative and lynching him doesn't give us any information. I'm willing to let him slide for the first day because that's what he wants, but if he keeps it up, I will push a policy lynch on him.

I would prefer a Day 1 lynch for VA. Yes, it doesn't give us the most information, but we get rid of a blatantly anti-town player (which I consider a better lynch than just an "information lynch").

Because I feel like he might open up more on D2 or D3. If he doesn't, he dies.

It doesn't work like that. If you aren't contributing when town has the least information, not only are you not helping town, but we have nothing to look back to, and it makes it that much harder to figure out if you are town or not. If you need to do a policy lynch D2/D3, you're doing something wrong.

-

Reads Metal Sonic vs Hiraki

-

I don't think Hiraki did a good job of defending himself to the actual case, and the various comments such as "

You were just looking for the same words, don't deny it.

" don't sit well with me (although this would be a good time to see if Hiraki normally makes those types of comments... perhaps another time).

Woah, huh? Are you planning out what you think I'm going to say? Not only is that pretty dumb but that's actually scummy.

This stood out to me as going to far... especially when you say "

And before you say "but town can do it"[...]

", which say different things but the intention behind them are similar (to preempt a specific response).

I think he is dumb town but there's is only a minute difference between the two.

How many people are you reading as "dumb town" right now?

[YamiNoKira]

Right now, I think Brian Skies and Metal Sonic are town.

Skelda, why do you think Metal Sonic was "manipulating" Hiraki's posts? If MS is scum, why do you think MS didn't continue to push Hiraki?

I would really like a VA lynch (active lurking is the most detrimental thing someone can do - even scum who are participating are more useful to town than a lurker, even if their wincon isn't the same), but apparently my views aren't shared. I won't keep pushing it.

While I don't agree with many of Hiraki's interpretations, I don't have enough reason to believe he is scum (and considering how much Hiraki has posted, I'm inclined to believe that in itself makes him lean town for me).

As for Redelphic, I'm waiting on his responses to my questions (and his current thoughts).

I would greatly appreciate it if mnemonicdevice actually shared his thoughts instead of an ordered list, but other than that, mnemonicdevice is "null".

Dessew can go on my less-than-town list. I don't like the way he "formed" his scum!Skelda read (the reasoning in 62 was weak, but he was happy with an early bandwagon in 19). Later in 143, he retracts it and votes the lurker. In 255, he says he will move his vote, but he still hasn't done so. In 352, he is "unsure" of his reads and suggests the VA lynch.

Dessew, what are your reads and who do you want lynched?

Luigi/Mutley null due to no content.

-Kubbs- has been active enough, but other than the Skelda push, there's nothing really to base a read on for this slot.

---

I'm okay with a Skelda lynch now. There are various reasons why, and I'll explain if I need to.
VOTE: Skelda

What is the case on Red, again?

[YamiNoKira]

Someone show me the case on Red.

Oh, and Red, I'm still waiting on some responses:

I know Mutley and this is how he plays. I don't know VA and I don't understand why you would replace in only to completely ignore game discussion.

Is that not what Mutley is doing?

Yami, the thing that stood out to me the most and put me on edge was the sheer amount of questions that you have been asking. It is something that I have seen scum use to avoid truly scumhunting while still appearing to help town. If you iso you it is easy to see a pattern, and while you did go back and forth with some of the questions I never felt you were truly interested in them. I counted close to 50 questions being asked for the entire game, and I really don't see that as town motivated when there is hardly any follow through. Call it gut, but I read it as scummy on my first read through.

Fair enough, although I should mention that it is mainly a playstyle cause, not a scum-motivated cause. Now why didn't you mention this at all when you first called me out?

I definitely wouldn't say we were "comfortable with each other" or "trusting each other". The whole point of my vote was to test what phokdapolees would do after having made that statement - not just to blindly sheep or whatever it is that makes you think it had anything in specific with phokdapolees and not the statement itself.

[YamiNoKira]

Alright, I'll trust you. What do you think of 430, ns?