Newbie 1444 ~ Game Ovah ~ Mafia Win

[1baldeagle1]

Good shit guys everyone survived.

So where do we start first.

I have work in an hour so Ill re read everything when I get home and give some insight

This sounds like:

"Oh, what do I do now?" Well, for one thing, there's this thing called scumhunting. It's a pretty cool way of catching scum, but the funny thing is that, you haven't really done any of that. You only townhunted a little bit early in the game.

Jesus christ dude really? I could say that I just shit a fat brick and you would still find a way to find it scummy

Atleast I backed it up with some evidence of what you have done all game.

Also, you ignoring my question has been noted.

Thor, why didn't you want to vote for Sakura at all?

This question goes to you, burn, because you were also soft-pushing the Sakura lynch.

1. I was never soft pushing the Sakura lynch and it was silly enough she thought so, but if you'd like to suggest I was then you better be willing to back it up with some evidence to prove you're not just copying her silly accusation.

2. I didn't want to vote for her because I thought Burn was a substantially better lynch and didn't see it as a point in the day where I had to settle for a tertiary scum read.

If Sakura was a "tertiary" scumread, that means you are still scumreading her right? So, you should have been fine with lynching Sakura, right? Also, I believe that Sakura's case on you towards the end of the day has some validity to it.

Also, Eagle, I wouldn't mind getting your read on Zipper and his play yesterday.

Null-Town Lean.

I liked his catch-up posts and providing some content, etc. He needs to post more often though.

[Malakittens]

2.01

With 8 alive it's 5 votes to lynch

Voting for:

*Kytoxid -
*Gale -
*Micc -
*Zipperflesh - Thor665 [1]
*burn_209 - 1baldeagle1 [1]
*1baldeagle1 -
*talah -
*Thor665 -

Not voting: burn_209, Micc, Gale, Zipperflesh, Talah, Kytoxid [6]

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2013-11-21 16:12:00)

[zipperflesh]

VOTE: thor

Sakura brought up a good point about you soft pushing his lynch, but not unvoting burn.
And now you're parking a vote on me, while you soft push a burn lynch. Why am I suddenly a substantially better lynch than burn?

[Thor665]

If Sakura was a "tertiary" scumread, that means you are still scumreading her right? So, you should have been fine with lynching Sakura, right? Also, I believe that Sakura's case on you towards the end of the day has some validity to it.

I wouldn't have been opposed to lynching her, but I feel like you're really confusing what is being said there.
If I really want ice cream,a nd would be okay with cookies,a nd both look to be equally possible for me to get - why should I start moving towards the cookies when the ice cream is right there? It doesn't make sense.

And her case on me still doesn't have validity, but I'll give you a pass on saying this because I'm going to ask Zipper to back it up.

I liked his catch-up posts and providing some content, etc. He needs to post more often though.

What did you like about his content?
It started at moderately acceptable stuff and then promptly accelerated into terrible as the end of day neared. Can you be specific about what was good?
Also, look at his vote on Sakura and my questioning of it (because, y'know, I was soft pushing Sakura...) and then tell me how you get a town read off that vote - I would really like to hear that explained.

Sakura brought up a good point about you soft pushing his lynch, but not unvoting burn.
And now you're parking a vote on me, while you soft push a burn lynch. Why am I suddenly a substantially better lynch than burn?

1. Sakura brought up a really bad point - but I'll give you a chance to show how good it was. Please explain how I soft pushed her lynch.

2. Yes, I am putting a vote on you, I think you're scum. You are a better lynch than Burn because my beard says so, also your end of day interaction with the Sakura and Burn wagons were beyond the ken of me to put into a towny mindset. How did that "wagon not to lynch" go for you there? You deserve rope for that one.

[Kytoxid]

Looking back, I don't like Thor's D1 play. It's not just because of Sakura's point on him not really pushing for a D1 claim as hard as he usually does as we approach the deadline. He's been sitting at the sidelines, asking questions and pulling reads from other players but providing very little analysis himself.

All the 1-emoticon responses don't help either and only add to this. I looked through a couple of Thor's past newbie games and haven't seen him do this as town compared to when he's scum.

VOTE: Thor

Okay, so we have a little under five hours.
Talah has specifically chosen to lynch Sakura over Burn.
Burn and Sakura are sitting on a useless wagon together.
Fascinating on multiple fronts.

What was the purpose of this post? Everyone knows this already. What made it so fascinating?

I am not benefited by knowing I wouldn't have. I wanted to know who would.

Why wouldn't you have shifted your vote to force a lynch? And if someone was willing to shift their vote, what would that indicate about their alignment?

Burn also likes the Gale wagon.

Do you trust me enough to wait until Day 2 until I respond to this?

@Eagle: Can you respond to this now?

I don't necessarily, but at this point I feel a wagon on Sakura will give us more info. Especially considering her interactions with kytoxid and Antagon.

@zipper: Sakura is now dead. She was VT. What does this show about me and Antagon/Eagle?

@Micc and Gale: Quit lurking and let us know what you think of Thor and Zipper.

[Thor665]

All the 1-emoticon responses don't help either and only add to this. I looked through a couple of Thor's past newbie games and haven't seen him do this as town compared to when he's scum.

What was the purpose of this post? Everyone knows this already. What made it so fascinating?

The purpose, if you can't see it, probably isn't worth explaining. Especially if you think everyone knows what I was saying...I actually don't even understand what you're even on about here. Either everyone knew, and understood what was interesting, or people didn't, and I should need to explain it.

Why wouldn't you have shifted your vote to force a lynch?

Because that's how I roll - you did meta research on me, did you never see me talk about my theories as involve compromise wagons?
Quite frankly, with even Sakura pointing out how I wasn't going to lynch her, and with her alignment flip, I'm not even sure how this comes across as scummy. It's likely null or townish on my part.

And if someone was willing to shift their vote, what would that indicate about their alignment?

Considering she was town, I would have liked to have a nice set of players voting for her lynch. I also wanted to see if Burn would do it, quite frankly, or if someone would have moved off Burn. I sort of figured Burn would but wanted the proof.

@Micc and Gale: Quit lurking and let us know what you think of Thor and Zipper.

So you agree with me about Zipper?

[zipperflesh]

Evidence of Thor soft pushing Sakura

My eyes keep glazing as I look at this.
Eh, quick gut opinions;

Burn remains a good lynch.
I agree with the pseudo point about how queit Sakura is being, she should start shouting out some more reads. i think the point raised about the lack of her push on Daughter is very strong, I'm going to move both Daughter and Gale towards town for that, Gale being moved is amazing because I literally hate the entire rest of that post and find it rather scummy, but the one good kernal is there and it feels legit.
Talah's post tastes like wet cardboard seasoned with scraps of paper - it is bland and mushy and I shift her scummier for it...eh...I'll even say less scummy than Sakura, but it's by such a mushy nothing of degrees I'd happily flip-flop on it at the drop of a hat.
And have I mentioned that Burn remains a good lynch?
Yes?
Good, i'd like to do so again now.

@Zipper - I'm excited that you are pushing on Sakura. That said, what are your more general thoughts on the game and/or specific opinions of things in the game?

I want to withhold voting until I see Sakura's reaction post.

I am willing to lynch Sakura or Burn at this point.

1. Why, what will it change?

2. Why not vote Sakura then to add pressure to her to get a response from her? Especially if you're willing to take it all the way to lynch?

Because she's scum.

Because she's scum.

What leads you to that conclusion, and why are you not voting her?

Gut and how uninvolved she's been, which I find non-like her town play.
I am not voting her because I have multiple scum reads and I vote the strongest one - I honestly don't even understand why you would ask me that. It's pretty obvious and common, it's not like my vote isn't in play and isn't on the biggest wagon of someone I have also called scum. Derp?

@Micc - could you describe to me why you think Antagon is scum? I glanced over your posts and, if you did it, I missed it.

Also, if you could give me your read on Sakura I would be most thankful.

Sakura has done literally everything you have accused Antagon of. In fact, moreso except that she ahs a history of not being a lurksack.
Why are you voting the one over the other.

Also, what makes either of them scummier than Burn?

And that's an issue considering I have 4 scumspects now, as Kyto's entrance didnt make the slot look any better and he just seems to be jumping at anything that can go into a lynch just for the sake of jumping at it.

What are you doing to sort this out, since you've been here but are only reacting to me demanding answers from you instead of being proactive? Not all of your scumreads are lurking.

Also, the fact that Sakura is willing to hammer herself to avoid a no-lynch is pretty town to me.

I actually found that the scummiest thing in that post, and thought her at least trying to get out some reads felt townish, but the hammer thing felt like fake bluster.
Why do you think a promise like that is pretty town? It would be exceedingly easy to fake, and the only way it even comes into play is when it's at a stage she'll be lynched anyway so there's literally nothing a scum risks in saying it...why is it townish?

Let me put it this way for clarity - I think that town wouldn't bother to announce that intent. They would decide at that moment to do it.
I think announcing it prior to needing to do it means it was done for town cred, and is thus null at best, and scummy at worst, and certainly not a pro-town tell...how am I wrong?

Probably.

Again, though, how is that pro town to say? I'll agree that many people would argue it as pro-town to do (I am not amongst them, but that is another issue).
But it is of no help at all to say. It is, in fact, meaningless to say. So why should saying it be taken as pro-town?

You might as well take 'hey, guys, I'm not scum, serious!' as pro-town. Because it's meaningless to say and is easy for scum to say - therefore it is not a good tell of actual pro-town action or thought.
Can you clarify where you're coming from if I'm missing something here?

So I know Scum-Thor knows that town doesnt know what they are doing, and is willingly sitting there doing nothing on the Burn wagon while it's obvious my wagon is the one more likely to be the lynch, despite all the time him saying that I'm scum and what not. I was eagerly awaiting for him to come to see if he would hammer, yet he didn't he decided to stay on Burn.

Maybe im wrong about Burn and Thor is busing, oh well, that's a problem for you guys to figure out on the forthcoming days.

None of this really makes sense.

Also, you're referencing people to my scum games - maybe you should tell them what to look for in those games that I'm doing here. It would help them catch me, after all.

[zipperflesh]

@kytoxid it shows that I was completely off base, and Im going to have to reevaluate multiple reads for day 2

[talah]

Yeah, I'm gonna need a re-read before I can really say anything sensible.
The no-kill means w, x, y-a/y-b or z (bulletproof target, doc successful protect, jailkeep killer/jailkeep target, or non-submission), plus who would be probable targets of each action, and although open speculation is probably harmful to town it's where my head's at right now.

VOTE: Zipper

In the meantime if tomorrow was deadline I think burn would be a sensible lynch.

Back on deck this time tomorrow at latest, and likely online for a while tonight if anyone wants gut-drivel.

[Thor665]

@Zipper - multiple of those posts are "soft pushing" her when there wasn't even a wagon on her. Multiple others are pushing Burn more than her. Some of them are simply conversations with no pushes, soft or not, at all. Some of them aren't soft pushes, but statements of my reads. Some of them have me calling her actions townish.

I am drastically underwhelmed.

[Thor665]

Oh, and Zipper, if I was soft pushing her...why didn't you bring up how I got pissy at you for starting the wagon on her?
I pretty much flat out said I thought it was dumb and you should vote Burn.

Or was that a clever double play on my part?
Tell me more.

[1baldeagle1]

Guys, vote burn, plz.

(I'll answer the questions later, when I get home.)

[zipperflesh]

Oh, and Zipper, if I was soft pushing her...why didn't you bring up how I got pissy at you for starting the wagon on her?
I pretty much flat out said I thought it was dumb and you should vote Burn.

Or was that a clever double play on my part?
Tell me more.

The very definition of soft pushing is casting suspicion on another player, which you did continuously. Sakura was never scummy enough for to vote for, but she was scummy enough for you to keep pointing it out.

You didn't get pissy at me for starting the wagon on Sakura, I didn't even start her wagon....

You did however fill with cold rage when I dropped of the wagon you started on burn to vote Antagon.

[Thor665]

You didn't get pissy at me for starting the wagon on Sakura, I didn't even start her wagon....

I didn't get pissy with you?
What was this then?

@Zipper - with the time we have left, and your stated desire for a Burn lynch, why in the world are you dorking around with a pressure wagon on Sakura?

::insert Picard wtf is the smurf insult jpg here::

Because, y'know, that's what i do when someone falls for my masterful scum plan of soft pushing someone. I tell them the wagon is dorking around and that they should sheep me on someone totally different.



Again, tell me more.

You did however fill with cold rage when I dropped of the wagon you started on burn to vote Antagon.

Which, again, suggests that I wanted to lynch Burn - which is what I've been saying was something that I did wish to do.
Also, as just shown, I also got annoyed when you opted for Sakura instead of Ant and, again, it was because I wanted you on Burn.
My scum play is clearly just levels on levels of soft pushing to control your mind subtly.

[Micc]

Requesting Replacement

I probably should have done this earlier, but I don't have enough time to give this game the attention it needs.

[Malakittens]

Requesting Replacement

I probably should have done this earlier, but I don't have enough time to give this game the attention it needs.

Noted. Ill put in the request ASAP.

[talah]

@kytoxid it shows that I was completely off base, and Im going to have to reevaluate multiple reads for day 2

Zipper

- I've said as much as scum before. I've played one scum game and I got a bit flighty after my first inrush and then took strong irrational positions while admitting my previous reads were out of whack (because I needed to keep myself open to voting players I'd already townread).

While you're a different player it seems like you're doing that with Thor. You threw him the town pants yesterday and now you're voting him based on Sakura's argument.
Hint: Sakura just flipped town. She had suspicions which she voiced, but didn't have knowledge of who was scum. Which doesn't make her the patron saint of perfect reads just because she's lynched. Her alignment didn't change with the flip, the only thing you can really say is that she was town and likely being honest with her reads.

Considering you were on her wagon at lynch, it's strange you now make a complete reversal on your own reads in order to adopt Sakura's position, when actually her conversation with Thor post-hammer seemed like she wasn't sure at all.

Not to mention, out of the wxyz options I posted, there's only one which would make sense as an argument for Thor-scum, and even then, the inverse is just as likely if Thor's town (or actually far more likely when you consider the odds of Thor rolling scum are two in seven whereas the odds of him being a PR target of any type or a nightkill are substantially higher given his reputation).

I'd read Thor as scum if he was making arguments which didn't make sense to me or was deliberately ignoring information given. But I'm not seeing that here - even with the argument for burn-scum I was seeing probing for more and more information and clarification, rather than hijacking the conversation or turning it to his own purpose.

The one thing I'm really uncertain about with Thor is just why he is reading burn as scum. (Or perhaps, if?)
--

Nevertheless,

burn

- wouldn't mind an update from you if you've found the time.

Haven't got much more than that right now - I kept trying to fit combinations of Micc, eagle and Zipper together and the best I came up with was that Micc jumped off Antagon at L-1 and onto Sakura, having voted Antagon in the first place saying he 'wanted him to come back'. Zipper shifts his vote over to Sakura after that with Antagon/Eagle at L-2 but neither really push Sakura (well Micc does which seems to be the cause of his voting Sakura, but it has only a brief and judgemental build-up), but it's kind of weird and I actually wish Sakura hadn't self-voted because the information we've got now is less than we might have had even with a no-lynch.

So anyway,

Tending town:

Kytoxid, Thor, burn, gale

Tending scum:

Eagle, Zipper, Micc

(I still think that burn's a lovely information lynch if there's no consensus, but we have plenty of time)
(I'm a bit burnt out from *things* and am trying to hold myself to a slightly professional standard in this game)
(just to explain my attitude)

[1baldeagle1]

Hi talah!

Plz, explain why burn is town.

[1baldeagle1]

Also, talah, Kytoxid is doing the similar thing, (voting Thor, etc) like Zipper, but you are townreading her?

[1baldeagle1]

Burn also likes the Gale wagon.

Do you trust me enough to wait until Day 2 until I respond to this?

@Eagle: Can you respond to this now?

Well, originally, I didn't want to because I thought we would be moving with a Gale lynch, but it doesn't matter now.

At the time, I was leaning towards burn bussing Gale, but I didn't want to voice it or say anything about it, as it would probably derail the wagon by burn. I was just worried about that happening.

[1baldeagle1]

Gale, where the hell are you, I want to feel better about your slot.

[talah]

Hi talah!

Plz, explain why burn is town.

Essentially, his iso. He doesn't seem uncomfortable or deceptive, just annoyed. The only way I've considered him as scum is if Thor decided to (implicitly threaten to) bus him for a terrible sheep of Sakura and then remain washy-washy not really pushing the burn lynch toward deadline - but I think it's unlikely.

Also, talah, Kytoxid is doing the similar thing, (voting Thor, etc) like Zipper, but you are townreading her?

Yes I'm townreading Kytoxid at this stage, first time player with some pretty analytical views (including the vote-rush onto Sakura from Micc and Gale) and answering my own questions and asking questions of Thor. Also I actually really like that she votes and accuses Thor, but then still questions Virtually everyone else.

Also, you should answer her question regarding "trust me on burn liking the Gale wagon". Unless you have night Zero information, it's not making sense. And you don't have Night Zero information.

What do you think about Zipper's statement that Sakura and I aren't on the same scumteam?

[talah]

And Kytoxid differs from zipper in that her scumhunting motivation is clear.

[talah]

/his

[Kytoxid]

@Mod: Can we get a prod on Gale?

All the 1-emoticon responses don't help either and only add to this. I looked through a couple of Thor's past newbie games and haven't seen him do this as town compared to when he's scum.

Continuing to not clearly communicate anything. Alright.

The purpose, if you can't see it, probably isn't worth explaining. Especially if you think everyone knows what I was saying...I actually don't even understand what you're even on about here. Either everyone knew, and understood what was interesting, or people didn't, and I should need to explain it.

Your post is basically just repeating posts 313 and 315, which people should understand individually. What did

you

find interesting about them?

Why wouldn't you have shifted your vote to force a lynch?

Because that's how I roll - you did meta research on me, did you never see me talk about my theories as involve compromise wagons?
Quite frankly, with even Sakura pointing out how I wasn't going to lynch her, and with her alignment flip, I'm not even sure how this comes across as scummy. It's likely null or townish on my part.

I am looking for an understanding of what you're thinking. I don't recall anything particularly striking about you and compromise wagons from your meta, although I could have just missed it. If Burn did shift over to hammer Sakura for deadline reasons, would this be scummy? Also, do you think Burn is scummy, period?

@Micc and Gale: Quit lurking and let us know what you think of Thor and Zipper.

So you agree with me about Zipper?

I agree that Zipper deserves a closer look.

@kytoxid it shows that I was completely off base, and Im going to have to reevaluate multiple reads for day 2

I would prefer if you were more specific in your response, this is awfully general. I think you scum-read both me and Eagle before the Sakura flip (correct me if I'm wrong). What is your position now, and why?

Not to mention, out of the wxyz options I posted, there's only one which would make sense as an argument for Thor-scum, and even then, the inverse is just as likely if Thor's town (or actually far more likely when you consider the odds of Thor rolling scum are two in seven whereas the odds of him being a PR target of any type or a nightkill are substantially higher given his reputation).

I'm having trouble understanding this. I think your argument here is that Thor is likely a townie that was protected last night, since he would be an easy N1 target, is that correct? I don't think we have enough information to start thinking in this direction just yet, so I see this as null.

Haven't got much more than that right now - I kept trying to fit combinations of Micc, eagle and Zipper together and the best I came up with was that Micc jumped off Antagon at L-1 and onto Sakura, having voted Antagon in the first place saying he 'wanted him to come back'. Zipper shifts his vote over to Sakura after that with Antagon/Eagle at L-2 but neither really push Sakura (well Micc does which seems to be the cause of his voting Sakura, but it has only a brief and judgemental build-up), but it's kind of weird and I actually wish Sakura hadn't self-voted because the information we've got now is less than we might have had even with a no-lynch.

I'm really not seeing a clear point being made here. The thing that bugs me about Zipper in D1 is how he drops a vote on Sakura in post 246, speaks with Thor for about 3 hours, and then doesn't show up to discuss anything for the 2 remaining days. The same goes for Gale, who may need to be replaced, from the looks of it. I think even with the Sakura self-vote, we definitely have more information than a no-lynch though.

At the time, I was leaning towards burn bussing Gale, but I didn't want to voice it or say anything about it, as it would probably derail the wagon by burn. I was just worried about that happening.

@Eagle: Do you still see a burn-Gale scum team? Could you let us know of what you think of Thor's play as well?

Heck;

@Burn - your read on Zipper and his play yesterday.

Do it or I'll just vote park you for lulz today, you know I will.

@burn: Please address the above. Almost everyone is willing to lynch you right now, and your silence isn't helping you out one bit. What do you think of the D2 interactions so far?