Newbie 1449: Return of the Van [Game Over!]

[Grimgroove]

I can't see any reason why not to lynch you, for starters.

You're beating a dead horse with that thiscantgowrong-vote. The arguments against him have been addressed, you did not provide any new ones. The vote as a frivolous afterthought sits very badly with me. It also feels as appeasement towards GuyInFreezer, who called you out for that very thing. For someone claiming not to care about being read as scum, this is strange. You avoided a direct exchange with GuyInFreezer at a time where he clearly called you out.

And you didn't answer my question about where you know me from, but that's not really a reason, I'm just still curious .

You got time to talk?

So basically

"You're voting a dead wagon. And you never cared about being called scum but asking why you are being called scum. Ergo, scum"

Yeah... Sure... whatever

Restating my arguments in a simplistic manner and then adding "whatever" to it does not constitute a convincing reply.

[thenewearth]

Saying what you said does not constitute a convincing argument anyways

[Grimgroove]

Your impending lynch says otherwise.

[thenewearth]

your shitty sheep counters that

[Cervantes]

Was away from home last few days. Catching up atm.

[WBOCampfire1104]

@hayatoBL:
I'm sorry I didn't answer your question. Honestly, I kind of set myself up for a vote earlier, I was lazy and stubborn; a prime way to get lynched. I'm actually really trying now, and WHEN I tried, thiscantgowrong got off the hook. I think my reasoning was good, but he hadn't played for 1 1/2 years, and that's worse than being a n00b, because you know how dangerous it is, and you get on your toes, do crazy stuff. And you're offbeat. He got in the rhythm, and is going strong now. A n00b just goes all YOLO, doesn't know what to expect, and follows the good players. So, he had a classic case of wrong place, wrong time. Oh, the question: at the time, I didn't think he was sacrificing at all, I thought he was just being a very n00by scum.
@zipperflesh:
The reason I voted you is because you voted seemingly randomly without explanation at all. Basically you said "I'll vote WBO, just because hayatoBL did." No. Reason.

[thiscantgowrong]

^First and foremost, there is still 2 weeks before deadline. That’s enough time to keep pushing your 1st choice wagon.

I just dislike, that you’re main-suspecting one player, but voting for another. This is normally a scum tell. But I’m going to take this as a noob-tell, for now.

Secondly, don’t unvote and vote for Cervantes now. That Cervantes wagon was weak. You were the only target available, as he put his vote on you. It looks natural to want to vote on you at that time. I’m more suspicious on the people who sheeped on him.

Lacking responses from Cervantes all I would be doing is restating what I already said. That's unlikely to make a difference and more likely to be an annoying waste of time and space. Most people do seem to actually read what I say (TNE being an exception but I'll get to that later), so if stating the case the first few times doesn't move people how is doing so another dozen times supposed to? Now that Cervantes is back he might can shift me either more for or against him and I might have more to say, but at the time I had no indication that his silence was due to circumstance rather than a successful strategy (which does weaken my case against him some).

Also, increasing pressure on a secondary scum suspicion can be a good strategy, it still gives good info, and that seems to be what's happened with TNE. His argument has been "I'm not going to bother reading anything TCGW says and therefore you guys must be fools for not continuing to vote for him." That seems like a crazy argument to me, which kind of seems like a bit of a panic reaction. That's a bit of a scum tell for me so I actually now feel even more secure voting for him.

[thiscantgowrong]

I might should elaborate a short bit, switching to a secondary scum suspicion can make sense if doing so puts more effective pressure on the suspect than putting your vote on your primary scum suspicion. That's how I view the situation when I switched.

[thenewearth]

Wow

Dem misreps

Duh I read it. And it was the same stuff again and again.
I've even summarized your posts into 1 sentence.

And you just added a "let's misrep what he said" thing and tried to write me off as "panicky scum"

[thenewearth]

And lol

"Secondary suspicions"

You just sheeped the fuck out of GiF and Grim

[Trisania]

...I think TNE's "I-don't-care" attitude implies he's either:
1. Scum that still feels safe because even if you think he's scum, you haven't identified yet who his partner is, so lack of links thereof would somehow prove his innocence,
2. He's town, so he wouldn't bother to explain his innocence, or3. He's in a bad mood because of stuff happening iRL.

[hayatoBL]

@Grimgroove

You said he was ‘beating a dead horse’.

A dead horse according to who exactly? To you perhaps. The way I see it, TNE never looked at it as a dead horse. He puts up a case, TCGW defended against it, TNE finds his argument weak and push that wagon some more. In fact, after reading his newer posts, I’m more inclined to sheep him, rather than to vote on him.

@Trisania

You have made theories on TNE’s alignment. Which one do you think TNE belongs to? Scum or town?

[Grimgroove]

In fact, after reading his newer posts, I’m more inclined to sheep him, rather than to vote on him.

Please tell me which of these newer posts strentghened you in your beliefs and why.

[hayatoBL]

^Most of his arguments on post 197, 199 and 209 are valid. I especially like these ones:

1) "If I was scum then blah blah blah. Therefore, I'm town" posts. TCGW did that. This even echoes my own opinion.

2) Opportunity hop. This wagon is clearly much better than Cervantes’ with a strong player like GiF on this wagon.

3) “Secondary suspicions”. I don’t like TCGW’s response on Post 206. He still says that Cervantes is his main suspect. I ISO Cervantes several times already and I’m not really feeling TCGW’s argument.

I totally realize, that ALL of these mistakes could come from a newbie. But to which extent should we allow such newbie play? To an extent, where we forgive all of their mistakes and let them win as scum? Of course not. This game should be educational, I agree. But it doesn’t mean, that it has to be forgiving.

I know. TNE’s talking like a jerk, but his argument made sense.

TCGW’s wagon is push-able in my eyes. But TNE’s wagon? No. Not yet, at least.

Would you vote for TCGW, if this wasn’t a Newbie game?

[thiscantgowrong]

To point 1) what exactly are you supposed to hear from me? Just saying "No, I'm not scum" seems useless, so I ran through the hypotheticals of the argument to see if they made sense. That hardly seems like something to off-handly dismiss like TNE and you are doing. If it is then tell me where my logic fails.

To 2) and 3), what part of my point doesn't make sense to you? If you have multiple suspicions but one of them seems like a more likely lynch why is switching to that one bad even if it's somewhat (at the time of switching) less convincing to me than the one switched from? I'm not switching to someone I had no suspicions of, that seems ridiculous, but I don't see a switch to a secondary suspicion given that there are multiple mafia in the game as problematic!

And to your final question, even if everything I'm saying is nonsense (in which case I'd like an explanation as to why it's nonsense) this IS a newbie game. Ignoring the context of what kind of game it is seems like an artificial limit on what knowledge to bring to bear in hunting scum.

[hayatoBL]

Let’s start with this one first. What IS a Newbie game?

And to your final question, even if everything I'm saying is nonsense (in which case I'd like an explanation as to why it's nonsense) this IS a newbie game. Ignoring the context of what kind of game it is seems like an artificial limit on what knowledge to bring to bear in hunting scum.

It’s a place where players are allowed, even encouraged to ask questions and where player’s mistakes won’t ruin anyone’s fun. It’s a place where experienced players should coach newbies on theories and point out mistakes made by newbies. In other words, it should be educational.

What is NOT a newbie game is where you give less scum points only because someone is a newbie, which I think is Grim's mistake. This way no scum can hide among newbies. If I am not allowed to scum-read a newbie, how am I supposed to catch newbie scum?

To your second point:

To 2) and 3), what part of my point doesn't make sense to you? If you have multiple suspicions but one of them seems like a more likely lynch why is switching to that one bad even if it's somewhat (at the time of switching) less convincing to me than the one switched from? I'm not switching to someone I had no suspicions of, that seems ridiculous, but I don't see a switch to a secondary suspicion given that there are multiple mafia in the game as problematic!

I was trying to educate you on Post 196. I assumed, after you learned your lesson you would either:

1) Admit that pushing Cervantes’ wagon was a mistake after all(or at least claim that Cervantes is now your 2nd choice), and push TNE’s and claim that TNE is your main suspect.

OR

2) Leave TNE’s wagon and push Cervantes’ instead. If you strongly feel, that Cervantes is scum, you should push his wagon.

Instead, you still claim that Cervantes is your first choice, while pushing another wagon simply because there are more people on that wagon. I'm just saying, this is not what we do. You can express suspicion towards your second choice, but always push your first, unless the time is running out, where we should compromise. You are not my first choice, yet I'm expressing my suspicions towards you.

For your first point:

To point

1) what exactly are you supposed to hear from me? Just saying "No, I'm not scum" seems useless, so I ran through the hypotheticals of the argument to see if they made sense. That hardly seems like something to off-handly dismiss like TNE and you are doing. If it is then tell me where my logic fails.

Those kind of arguments are weak. This is what you seem to make us believe. “If scum knew what kind of behaviours would consider scummy, they would avoid doing them. Thus, only a town player would do those kind of behaviours”

Or a scum can WIFOM. “If scum knew what kind of behaviour would consider scummy, they shouldn’t avoid doing it to appear as town.”
I hope this made sense.

[thiscantgowrong]

And to your final question, even if everything I'm saying is nonsense (in which case I'd like an explanation as to why it's nonsense) this IS a newbie game. Ignoring the context of what kind of game it is seems like an artificial limit on what knowledge to bring to bear in hunting scum.

It’s a place where players are allowed, even encouraged to ask questions and where player’s mistakes won’t ruin anyone’s fun. It’s a place where experienced players should coach newbies on theories and point out mistakes made by newbies. In other words, it should be educational.

What is NOT a newbie game is where you give less scum points only because someone is a newbie, which I think is Grim's mistake. This way no scum can hide among newbies. If I am not allowed to scum-read a newbie, how am I supposed to catch newbie scum?

My point isn't that you shouldn't try to be catching newbies, at various points I've suspected newbies. The point is that you take that into account when judging whether something is a scum action or a newbie town action. Asking to ignore that just seems wrong-headed.

To your second point:

To 2) and 3), what part of my point doesn't make sense to you? If you have multiple suspicions but one of them seems like a more likely lynch why is switching to that one bad even if it's somewhat (at the time of switching) less convincing to me than the one switched from? I'm not switching to someone I had no suspicions of, that seems ridiculous, but I don't see a switch to a secondary suspicion given that there are multiple mafia in the game as problematic!

I was trying to educate you on Post 196. I assumed, after you learned your lesson you would either:

1) Admit that pushing Cervantes’ wagon was a mistake after all(or at least claim that Cervantes is now your 2nd choice), and push TNE’s and claim that TNE is your main suspect.

OR

2) Leave TNE’s wagon and push Cervantes’ instead. If you strongly feel, that Cervantes is scum, you should push his wagon.

Instead, you still claim that Cervantes is your first choice, while pushing another wagon simply because there are more people on that wagon. I'm just saying, this is not what we do. You can express suspicion towards your second choice, but always push your first, unless the time is running out, where we should compromise. You are not my first choice, yet I'm expressing my suspicions towards you.

This goes counter to what has been previously said about the importance of voting however. My initial proposal was rejected explicitly on the grounds that pressure is weak unless there is actual voting. So what I'm hearing then is that use of the finger of suspicion with a threatened vote is insufficient pressure to get real information, but that I shouldn't use voting on a secondary suspect if that seems more likely to get information? I'm having a little trouble buying that especially (no offense intended) from someone who's only been on this board about a month and a half longer than me.

To point

1) what exactly are you supposed to hear from me? Just saying "No, I'm not scum" seems useless, so I ran through the hypotheticals of the argument to see if they made sense. That hardly seems like something to off-handly dismiss like TNE and you are doing. If it is then tell me where my logic fails.

Those kind of arguments are weak. This is what you seem to make us believe. “If scum knew what kind of behaviours would consider scummy, they would avoid doing them. Thus, only a town player would do those kind of behaviours”

Or a scum can WIFOM. “If scum knew what kind of behaviour would consider scummy, they shouldn’t avoid doing it to appear as town.”
I hope this made sense.

I see your point, but again what else do you expect from me at this point? It may be weak, but it's backed up by my newness and the fact that it at least gives you something to go on rather than nothing.

[zipperflesh]

tl;dr

[zipperflesh]

I feel like scum is gonna hide behind the walls of text these two townies (hayato & TCGW) are throwing at each other.

[Trisania]

You can actually also check if their walls contain inconsistencies.

[thenewearth]

I feel like scum is gonna hide behind the walls of text these two townies (hayato & TCGW) are throwing at each other.

Like you?

[Grimgroove]

I feel like scum is gonna hide behind the walls of text these two townies (hayato & TCGW) are throwing at each other.

Like you?

Like you!

[Grimgroove]

Would you vote for TCGW, if this wasn’t a Newbie game?

No.

[thenewearth]

I feel like scum is gonna hide behind the walls of text these two townies (hayato & TCGW) are throwing at each other.

Like you?

Like you!

How am I hiding?

[thenewearth]

Would you vote for TCGW, if this wasn’t a Newbie game?

No.

On accounts that he's newb that's why you won't vote?

HAH

Don't make me laugh.

All but faulty newbcard plays to look as newbtown as possible