Mini 1516: Mafia in Space (Game Over)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Day 1, Votecount 9

Street Hassle [0]

Kid A [0]

TvK [1]

Regfan

My Milked Eek [0]

T S O [1]

ICEninja,

Regfan [1]

Orestes

ICEninja [0]

Garmr [0]

Squirrel Girl [1]

T S O

Orestes [3]

TvK, Kid A, Garmr

Quadraxis [0]

Herself [1]

havingfitz

havingfitz [3]

Herself, Squirrel Girl, Street Hassle

Not Voting [2]

- My Milked Eek, Quadraxis

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is on November 23rd at 7:30 AM PST or in (expired on 2013-11-23 07:30:00)

[Squirrel Girl]

squirrel creature - this is par for the course of her play. she makes weird leaps and goes in directions that you never expect her to. this is a playstyle thing and usually I need nacho to read her but I really think she is town this game.

I have no completed games on site and also haven't died in any ongoings yet. So either you're making this up, or you're still randomly deciding who I'm an alt of and then making value calls on my play based off the play of someone you don't even know is really me! I could be a Alduskel alt or something. Either way that doesn't seem like a smart move.

I think maybe he just got a little tunneled there and retreated?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. My case on him was based on a post Banksys made on page 2, and it wasn't the strongest case I've ever had. Don't get me wrong for the time it was fine but I feel like Reg's significant town contributions outweigh Banksys's early scummy play. Either way I admit that I feel a little derpy about ignoring post 33 back then.

Your evidence for clearing him is the post he made *immediately* after the one you claimed was a scumtell. I mean, if that isn't a tunnel I don't know what is. Also, you didn't even look at it again till Regfan came in and made the slot towny by...basically not saying much other than that he disagreed with your take and it was like a bolt from heaven - which made you retreat. Hence, tunneling and then retreating. That's what I meant by it.

Unvote: Havingfitz
Vote: My Milked Eek

[ICEninja]

I have no completed games on site and also haven't died in any ongoings yet. So either you're making this up, or you're still randomly deciding who I'm an alt of and then making value calls on my play based off the play of someone you don't even know is really me!

And there goes my unwillingness to lynch Herself today.

Your evidence for clearing him is the post he made *immediately* after the one you claimed was a scumtell. I mean, if that isn't a tunnel I don't know what is. Also, you didn't even look at it again till Regfan came in and made the slot towny by...basically not saying much other than that he disagreed with your take and it was like a bolt from heaven - which made you retreat. Hence, tunneling and then retreating. That's what I meant by it.

Well shit when you put it that way you make me look like a retard.

[Regfan]

I got off work early, going to get some things done then I can devote a few hours to the meta-reading and re-reading the last two pages.

Squirrel, your paranoia and "bad feelings" about Street are entirely misplaced. There's a few people on the site I believe I can read very accurately and Empire is at the top of that list, I played offsite with him for quite some time, hydra'ed with him in several games on this site, followed several more of his games and discussed games together as observers in many more, I have a very good idea on how his brain works as town vs scum and here he's town.

I'll explain it in more detail in a bit if you need but if your qualm with him is re; his Banksy vote and refusal to out the meta information his play there is super understandable and comes from a town mindset. As scum if he was pushing a case via stating there's "meta implications" he'd happily state them when asked to 1) Push a mslynch through and 2) Attain town cred whereas his refusal from doing it here is 1) To attain a reaction and therefore get a stronger read on the slot (And he's right in that there seems to be a large difference in her "rage" as both alignments) so he'd have got a fairly solid town read from it if she didn't flake and 2) Stating what the meta is negates any further ability to use it in the game so playing his hand (And face it, Empires trump card is generally meta based) very early in the game doesn't make sense, allowing for more posting allows for more natural meta comparison.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA reggie has a town read on us and can't lynch us and is stuck with me the whoooooooooooooooole game (well as long as either of us are alive) AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA game might be fun after all

You really don't have to dig salt into the wounds. This might be one of the few games where I wouldn't be super pissed at a N1/N2 death. Plus I think organizing and agreeing on town-reads and a scum lynch or two to clear more people via interactions is a win here anyway.

[Squirrel Girl]

Well shit when you put it that way you make me look like a retard.

Just tunnely.

[Regfan]

I kind of agree with ICE in that I didn’t like TSOs Post 272 and Post 273, reads as him following along but avoiding posting for the most part (No statement of who he finds as scum in that post whatsoever) but I’m deferring entirely to Street/Herself on him

that way if they get it wrong I can make fun of them!

since I’ve never seen a scum game of him and want to focus my meta reading on Fitz and TvK for now.

Ugh, Empire what do you make of Post 280 from TvK? I have a bunch of thoughts but want to hear yours.

TvK, you said that "Too many people were coming across as town" in Post 261, I only count 3, maybe 4(?) town reads in Post 280 with you having 6 "scummy" reads and 2 "null" reads (That's assuming Kid A is null not scum), so how are you "Reading too many people as town"?

[Regfan]

Thinking about it ICE's reverse looks almost too comically bad to be scummy, so I think maybe he just got a little tunneled there and retreated? I'd like to hear Reg's thought on that, but I'd like to leave ICE as townish for now.

I'm pretty positive that he's town here, would be seriously shocked if any of him, Street or Herself were scum here (Went into a detailed explanation earlier) but I don't find the turn-around of read scummy at all; more information, new analysis and point of view leads towards read changes.

I really don't like Fitz's Post 292, actually reading like "Scum caught for the wrong reasons".

Herself, Street and ICE really should be in your town section. I can completely understand why Empires attitude was what it was towards your slot, Desperados Post 87 and Post 90 came across as very dick-ish, he was attacking a town read that Empire had explained insinuating that Empire was "lying" about his reasoning for town reading the dude (And I entirely agree with Empires town read and reasoning there) so him being ticked of by it makes sense, especially as town, if you re-read the entire interaction there you should be able to see it too.

[Regfan]

Street, most of your reads and reasoning in Post 296 mesh with mine

fkin copycats

, more interested in your reads elsewhere though since I’m already confident those three are town. I'm going to get lunch but I'll be back in an hour, hoping to see your next list by then.

ICE’s Post 297 strengthens my town read on him even more than before (I'd eat a hat if this dude was scum) his frustration and confusion when it comes to reading Herself comes across as very genuine as is the “I’ usually so confident by now” because I’m in a fairly similar position, I wouldn’t bank 100% on any of my scum reads being correct and there’s still a few too many people I can see being scum here.

[Herself]

transposing top town read of reggie with unsure read of street

[Street Hassle]

Just a head's up, I'm gonna be drifting in and out of this thread since I just got conscripted by family to draft a formal letter for them due tomorrow. Should be able to get TvK and Garmr up tonight at the very least.

You highlighted the major issue I have with TvK's post (his saying he has a lot of townreads yet listing so few people as town in his list), only thing is I think the bit directed at you about how he felt he hasn't towntold / isn't pulling his weight sounded pretty genuine and I kinda buy the feeling he has that he's struggling.

[Herself]

I have no completed games on site and also haven't died in any ongoings yet. So either you're making this up, or you're still randomly deciding who I'm an alt of and then making value calls on my play based off the play of someone you don't even know is really me! I could be a Alduskel alt or something. Either way that doesn't seem like a smart move.

alright. you *remind* me of some1 who plays like you do, but even if I let go of the meta I like your leads so far it is kind of spooky how you go where I am thinking about going like I was wanting to vote milk thing and then there you are.

I think you have done it at least twice now.

[havingfitz]

- Sheeps all my townreads

I don’t even recall what your townreads are so I’m not sure I could be sheeping you. Given your push on me I doubt you can recognize town so I’ll try to avoid sheeping you if at all possible.

- Agrees with me that scum are likely among the minimal-post group

Once again…the universe of mafia revolves around Herself. Me saying I suspected the pool of 4-5 non-posters (along with the two suspects I actually named) indicates I could see one of them being scum. Big revelation there. One thing I’m not interested in though is policy lynching any of them. That’s an easy scummy way to a D1 mislynch tyvm.

- Thinks I'm scum because...?

He says he "was leaning towards us anyway but feel free to include a dash of OMGUS" but I think it's the whole fucking shaker's worth.

When I’m town and people make shit cases on me you can bet I will have OMGUS sentiments towards them. But that wasn’t the only reason I gave. Nice misrep. Your poor over analysis of my first two posts (ridiculous) and criticism of my standard catch up posts (null) are what have me suspecting you.

Why am I scum for overanalyzing your first two posts but you have nothing to say about Street's analysis of the same posts? Especially when they were the ones who asked me to provide the analysis in the first place?

Well…I said I was going back and forth on Street. Street acknowledged (and I assumed accepted) my explanation of post #6. I can’t argue an opinion that I was more open in some game. ???? I’ve provided a reference to another game (I’m town in) where I do an joking RVS followed immediately by a hydra question. I’ve been dealing with you.

Fitz said the same thing. "I'm not going to be able to post much content because the majority of my access is via phone" is crazy scummy.

How the fcuk is my availability on the site…and the means with which I access the site indicative of alignment? It's the same regardless of the game. BS

what if I told you that fitz's vote on me is the safest vote he can possibly make since he has voted me in nearly every single game we have ever been in so there is zero accountability there?

How is voting you safe? You seem to be getting a lot of town assessment your way. If I wanted to go with a safe vote I would have pushed a policy lynch on a lurker. Get it?

Also….please back up the “voted you in nearly every single game” accusation. I can think of maybe 3 games we’ve been in (not counting this) and I think I have voted you in the last 2 (including this). And how does that = zero accountability? If I support your lynch and you are town it looks bad on me and if I support your lynch and you are scum…it looks good on me. So WTF?

when I looked at fitz's posts in 2 rooms they seemed really different than what he has posted here, completely different tone but desp is right there are a lot of similarities between this game and castle. his vote on us is predictable I even told desp before the game started that is what he was going to do.

Once again….how was my voting you predictable? You saying you came into this game with a preconceived notion of what I would do (please prove the history you refer to earlier) shows me you came in with a preconceived view towards me which I suspect is guiding your actions/suspicions towards me.

I could care less about the town reads some people are giving Herself. Her case/push on me is complete bullocks.

And WTF is Orestes? He’d be my second option atm.

GoodnightZzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Street Hassle]

only thing is I think the bit directed at you about how he felt he hasn't towntold / isn't pulling his weight sounded pretty genuine and I kinda buy the feeling he has that he's struggling.

Very relevant town meta on this issue.

[Herself]

VOTE: milk thing

[Squirrel Girl]

Herself, Street and ICE really should be in your town section.

I am pretty sure this is directed at me, but I have both Herself and ICE as townreads currently, so I think you have a different concept of what I've been saying then what I've really been saying. I DO think Street looks etcchy and icky though. I don't really agree with everyone else on it, but enough players who I think are town have said it that I'm willing to nibble at it on the side while I worry about cracking some other nuts.

transposing top town read of reggie with unsure read of street

So Regfan is now a nullish read for you and Street is a strong town read?

alright. you *remind* me of some1 who plays like you do, but even if I let go of the meta I like your leads so far it is kind of spooky how you go where I am thinking about going like I was wanting to vote milk thing and then there you are.

I think you have done it at least twice now.

[Regfan]

Decided I'd just have lunch at the net cafe.

I read through the linked meta for Fitz, in Open 479 – Town his initial scumhunting post Post 81 actually has legitimate stances and content as does Post 185 and Post 234. That said there’s a lot of prod-dodging and V/LA posting. His later catch up post where he defends himself against an accusation against him in Post 457 is actually slightly similar to here, the “That’s weak shit” and attack on Thor slightly mirrors Herself here but his scumhunting in Post 776 shows he can state legitimate reads and cases but hasn’t whatsoever in this game. I did skim Mini 1407 - Scum (Replaced in) just for the initial post and his catch up post in Post 360 actually looks very very much like here (Also noticed the X is scummy for this, okay, X is leaning town again meaning that my townish read on that read progression on ICE is nullified) but there's a lot of "Commenting" without leading to conclusions there just like his Post 187 here. There's also just as much prod-dodging so I'd say "lurking" is probably a null-tell for him. Not interested in a game where he was SK, don't think that'll make for a good comparison at all. I tried looking at Mini 1503 - Scum (Cancelled) but it seems to be a weird type of game that's not-normal at all and a bad means of comparison especially since his Post 182 doesn't match his town or scum meta really.

So Empire, do you have a scum game of Fitz's where he gets run up early D1 so I can compare the reaction?

PEdit: Ughhhhhhhhhhhhh, fuck this all Fitzs Post 311 statement of "You can't recognize town, I'd avoid sheeping you" and "When I'm town and people make shit cases you can bet that I'll OMGUS towards them" actually read genuine.

Yeah Street, that linked post points towards TvK being town; I also found the "Thanks for pointing out that I don't look town" in 280 as town which is immensely frustrating because I'm not even remotely confident he's scum anymore and I think Fitz might actually be town too.

Unvote

Squirrel, the bit you quoted was directed at Herself and not you.

[Street Hassle]

Ok ffery and I spent a little bit of time discussing TvK's meta and here's what we've come up with:

• His town games (no completed scum games) are Open 395, Mini 1340, and Open 410. Didn't include the newbie games as I don't really find newbie games to be relevant meta (the mindset is somewhat different in those I've found looking through in the past). They're all also quite old (year+) but it's better than nothing.
  
• His play in Open 395 shows that he can be super detail oriented when he wants to be as town, something that I think is sorely lacking here. Even in the early stages of that game, he was constructing posts like #147 explaining his thought process.
  
• #112 in Open 395 shows that he does tend to scumread people very hesitatingly. He posted something similar here in #261, which could explain the weirdness in his lists. ffery thinks the posts are somewhat different in that on Open 395 he was talking about the distinction between finding people anti-town vs. finding them scummy (latter requires much more certainty from him) whereas here he's focusing on scummy behavior. Could very well be a distinction without a difference though.
  
• I mentioned it in my last post by implication but I'll say it more explicitly here: the similarity between his response to Regfan and his post in Open 410 where he says he'd be voting him too if he was looking from the outside is really striking.

Actually, I just realized going through his ISO here again that #65 in light of #260 makes a lot of sense if you look at it from the perspective of a townie who is very self conscious about his scumhunting (which he appears to be given the meta here). Maybe the dude's actually town after all?

P-edit: I'll go through trudging the fitz meta right now, give me a few.

[Regfan]

You missed [url=hhttp://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=22527]Mini 1351[/url] which I just started at with him, while he replaced out his read on Psyduck in Post 132 is similar to how he's treated Kid A this game in Post 178 and Post 280. His read on IS and McStab there is also very waffly like a lot of his early game reads such as Post 44 and Post 178 so that's just how he naturally is as town it seems. I'll take a look at your links now though.

[Street Hassle]

Eh, I felt like I didn't need to include it due it being 3 posts long but you're right about how he tends to approach early game reads.

About fitz, not sure how relevant this will be, but he was run up / suspected almost immediately on replacing into a scum slot in The Reckoning II and ended up writing #793, and well...yeah, he could probably do that as either alignment. Need to find more to be sure though.

[Regfan]

Eh, I felt like I didn't need to include it due it being 3 posts long but you're right about how he tends to approach early game reads.

Well that was one of the largest reasons I thought he was scum (So many waffly reads coming across as leaving options open for later and not wanting to get caught taking hard stances that he'd be forced to stand by and explain) so him doing it as town is a pretty big thing (At least for me I guess?).

I skimmed the linked games you gave and you're right in that he does seem very hesitant to give out reads in those games or call people "Scum" especially in the early game which is shown by him thinking having a "scum read" on page 3 is odd in Post 67 in Mini 1340 so yeah a lot of his ISO makes more sense now. I really want to see some deeper analysis from him though, he's capable of it but I actually lean town on him now.

[Herself]

Squirrel, the bit you quoted was directed at Herself and not you.

:/

then why are

you

saying we should have us in our townreads

I can quote this and add in the word I left out!

[Regfan]

Probably badly phrased but the "Herself" section was directing it towards you, not listing you.

Also guessing you're a Mollie hydra?

[Herself]

Probably badly phrased but the "Herself" section was directing it towards you, not listing you.

Also guessing you're a Mollie hydra?

guessing you have already figured this out since you have referenced me a couple of times

yeah!

[Street Hassle]

Ugh, about to crash and I need to get this letter done. Let me know what you think about that fitz game and I'll be back tomorrow to finish that up as well as the Garmr stuff.

[Regfan]

About fitz, not sure how relevant this will be, but he was run up / suspected almost immediately on replacing into a scum slot in The Reckoning II and ended up writing #793, and well...yeah, he could probably do that as either alignment. Need to find more to be sure though.

Well fuck me, I'd have probably town read him for the refusal to claim there. I need to look at it in more detail and my time just ran out so it'll have to be tonight when I get home (6-7 hours in all likelihood) but I read the attitude and phrasing towards Herself from Fitz in Post 311 as town, you seeing the same thing I am there? If so then both my scum reads and TvK and Fitz were probably wrong.

guessing you have already figured this out since you have referenced me a couple of times

Was moreso referring to the helium-3 account (Thought it might have been SG main-slipping but you fit more with the context of it).