Red Wine Mafia: Game Over

[fferyllt]

Oh yeah. I forgot. I'm lazy. I don't like meta diving the way you do. The one I witnessed is still on. I saw others in his topics. I'm at work so not ISOing or opening multiple thread tabs at the moment. You can always look, but honestly it's not even part of my case on him here. If I remember when I get home, I'll post it for you.

I realize it's not part of your case. The problem I'm having is that he's has been flagrantly blantant about what he's doing - wagon-hopping. From what I've seen in my own meta dives it's not much like other recent scum games. And it doesn't fit what I've read about his tactics as scum in recent mafia discusion threads.

I have trouble seeing how it's pro-scum to play this way.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

You have to ask the other questions too, ffery. Is it pro-town? Does this match his town meta?

None of it does. So the only evidence I have are his votes. Saying he's vote-hopping, well I mean really. I've flat out claimed scum as scum and won before. Words are distractions a lot of the time.

[mykonian]

votecount

Albert B. Rampage (5): katsuki, pjovek, cephrir, especiallythelies, bbmolla
espeonage (5): natirasha, tammy, projectmatt, fferyllt, Albert B. Rampage
pjovek (1): chamber
tammy (1): espeonage

Not voting (3): cabd, Llamarble, TSO

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline is on the 30th

[fferyllt]

You have to ask the other questions too, ffery. Is it pro-town? Does this match his town meta?

None of it does. So the only evidence I have are his votes. Saying he's vote-hopping, well I mean really. I've flat out claimed scum as scum and won before. Words are distractions a lot of the time.

wincon + role + personal goals and objectives --> motivation --> in-thread behavior.

I'm in the process of reverse-engineering this. The most obvious paths backwards don't lead me to think there's a scum role pm on the left hand side of the algorithm.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

espeonage (5): natirasha, tammy, projectmatt, fferyllt, Albert B. Rampage

Here's another reason...

- My top scum read, ABR, is on the competing wagon.
- Espeonage gave be good town vibes on my read-through.
- Nat and Tammy are difficult to put in the town pile and either could easily be scum, switching out with BB in my list.
- pmatt is clueless, as far as I can tell, at least for the moment.


That leaves only you, ffery, as a reasonable player I could trust to really look into their reads. One person out of five on a wagon I don't agree with leads me to believe I am correct that it is a wagon on town.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Albert B. Rampage (5): katsuki, pjovek, cephrir, especiallythelies, bbmolla

But look at this.

- I have evidence that convinces me ABR is scum.
- I believe pjovek to be town, and ceph is also very town for me.
- I put katsuki in a null-mostly-leaning-town area.
- BB is the only one I am not feeling good about on the wagon of my choice.

[fferyllt]

What did you think of espeonage's posts on his last visit to the game thread?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

What exactly are you referring to. I feel almost all of his posts read town to me. As a whole, it looks like excited town that started the game strong and then got overwhelmed, and subsequently became a wagon choice. I can literally feel where this person is.

[fferyllt]

Lol, I have a 100% win rate as Jester on day 1.

I'm back, I've been following through my VLA when peeps have been doing stuff but I'm going to go back through and post my thoughts. I did see the meta argument, and I can't really compete against that conclusion, this is different to how I played that game, then again that's only one game. I don't believe I'm that clear cut but ok.

Cabd, as someone that is reading Tammy as really scummy, I find your faith in her seriously disturbing.

You and ffery will bring some really cool stuff I feel,

I don't think there's enough day to do that today though.

But yeah, Imma go read back.

This post bothered me mostly because of the bolded. He still hasn't clarified the bolded, at least not well enough for me to get what he's driving at. There's something about Cabd's and my interactions in this game that bugs him, but hellifino precisely what.

And I think people are bandwagoning a read on Pjovek as Town - he spammed and now he's lurking and I hate that because it's unnatural.

I was reading an old game of mine a couple of weeks ago where a VI I really liked playing with was mafia and he played the game like a harp and only really got killed because PoE for Cult Recruiter. And frankly, I'm terrible at reading VIs I've realised. I think it's a psychological thing because I used to think I was a terrible player (I was).

But yeah this post rings of truth, and it'd be pretty cool if we come back to this tomorrow or I guess today is chamber wants to get off his bum.

Suggestion that pjovik is a VI, but yeah we should revisit a pjo lynch tomorrow.

Also, in addition to the first post I made.

Cabd's gambits. I'm not sure how they usually go down, but everything here seems really half arsed. A curve ball is a curve ball but the drunkposting seems really really terrible as a gambit. I'm all for getting drunk and posting because it changes your perception of posts. That's fine, it's why I always used to pull an all nighter for Marathon days because I play better when tired. But that was just poor form last night.

Gripes about Cabd's gambits.

Also TSO and Katsuki is like the new ffery and Cabd, but I'm not as sure if it's scum/town as I am with ffery, it seems more tunneling, which I'll live with at this point as they seem less cryptic and decietful than Cabd and ffery.

PEDIT: K, I'll go squizz it later.

Back to one of Cabd, me being scum.

@Cabd: Two things.
1. Can't find the gambits list.
2. I've got a gambit for you. Saying your game revolves around meta, then saying you pride your scum game to make people think that you have distinctive factors that make up your good scum play only to not do any of it as scum because don't want to be meta read correctly.

A sort of "fuck meta, you can manipulate that" attack on Cabd. Which is true to an extent.

Conversely, I don't feel Tammy and Cabd would be scum together, it doesn't add up with Tammy's response to the whole meta thing from ages ago.

But, he's kinda deriding his own build up of scum-Cabd here.

I appear to have missed that ffery.

Eh I guess we can deal with it today. I'd rather lynch Tammy that go after cabd. And your wagon dissolved.

It was about here that his posts started to focus on my engagement efforts.

He'd rather lynch Tammy. He thinks Tammy is more likely scum despite a whole series of posts following a scum-Cabd line of argument.

What was missing from all those posts (and the ones that came after) was any effort at all to convince other players that Tammy is scum. He subtly pushed other players as scummy while holding his vote static, without any more push on his target.

[projectmatt]

pmatt is clueless, as far as I can tell, at least for the moment.

Haha, I would love for you to elaborate on this.

[Cephrir]

TBH I don't see much conviction in those espe posts that Cabd is scum.

But like I've said, both wagons are good wagons, I'm not terribly worried.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Ffery, no offense, but you really like to zero in on stuff that paints an obscure picture that is hard to follow. You bang hard on that little shit, that to me, really doesn't mean anything. That's what I feel about the first quote. I feel it is a nothing issue.

What's wrong with suggesting pjo is a VI? He was acting like it early game. If he wasn't the wagon wouldn't have formed. It was not entirely scum driven, there were certainly town on it. But yeah pjo was acting like a douche. He's better now. Now that we've gotten a chance to adjust to his temperature. It's the people who didn't eventually realize that and look elsewhere that concern me.

Griping about cabd's gambits? I do not like gambits either. Do you? Especially town gambits. (See: Wake88)

The only part of this whole thing that makes any sense for Esp-scum is the very last sentence. But without the rest actually equaling scum, I don't see it. And the rest does not equal scum, imo.

[Cabd]

Griping about cabd's gambits? I do not like gambits either. Do you? Especially town gambits. (See: Wake88)

Back the fuck up. What I do has nothing to do with the kind of fucked up shit wake pulls. I actually do things that further my wincon. That was an insult to my character, and you will retract it.

[Natirasha]

Back the fuck up. What I do has nothing to do with the kind of fucked up shit wake pulls. I actually do things that further my wincon. That was an insult to my character, and you will retract it.

And what you do is an affront to what I do.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I worry you've mixed up ABR "scumminess" with ABR "not giving two continental fucks". Do you really think a guy who has wrote multiple articles could actually be this bad as scum?

Plenty of people are being useless. Chamber has done fuck-all this game. Pjovek has also done nothing for the last idk even pages.

he doesn't give a fuck and is completely surface deep

I don't have the luxury of assuming his mindset. I can only analyze his behavior and actions here. It may be true; he may not give a fuck. But that is not alignment indicative, generally.

I'm flattered, this coming from the master of unreadability himself, but it actually isn't that difficult.

Looks like you changed your mind on ABR though D:

I didn't know I had that reputation. I kinda like having a smokescreen in such a way. And, yeah, ABR's play really turned itself around IMO after that point, starting with...

Pray tell, because they still sound stilted as hell to me.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5468239 I found this post very interesting because of the hypocritical position ABR takes. I do not think scum-ABR takes such a bait.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5468934 The wording+tone of this post is highly indignant and I love it.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5470516 The shut down-and-force-a-lynch tactic is one I use all the time as town because it seems presenting cases really isn't in vogue right vs being a useless ass until people come around(I call it the majiffy school of scumhunting).

That's not to go in with ABR's profile this game--minor accusations of lurking, a sense of detachment, not much content, lots of wagon hops. For a player as skilled as ABR, I find it highly likely he would put this little effort into his scumplay. I mean, by god, this is the guy who posted that egotistical "Objectives As Scum" post in Mafia Discussion a while back. In all, he fits the profile of "scum-approved mislynch to a T".

The posts above are all one hundred percent true.

Re: ABR, again, it is

not his words

. It is his

voting pattern

that might as well be a scum claim.

This amuses me. Do you think I've given a moment's thought to any of these votes? The answer is no. I've been reading the thread, and forming a grand total of zero opinions.

It's true to say that forming early and weak opinions is pro-town. I haven't done this, whether due to lack of focus, trying to get laid, volunteering at local charity events or general lack of interest for mafia after getting lynched 4 times in a row in a quick succession, I can't tell. It's also true to say that in such uncertain times as these, it's sometimes better to wait until new evidence surfaces than to forecast.

I'm throwing votes around, trying to get this day over with as early as possible to possibly get some bandwagon and night kill analysis done tomorrow. I haven't got a clue who is scum right now beyond a surface level feeling of disconnection with certain players.

I feel no pressure, either. Complete lack of commitment so far.

Now, we're 45 pages in. I won't ask for a replacement.

Espeonage and BBmolla are my top suspicions. It seems that ETL cannot differentiate detachment from manipulation. Those who claim that if I had scum partners, I'd have some skin in the game to prove myself innocent, are right. Some games, I find passion, and some, I don't.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You should join mine.
We only have incredible beacons of towniness on it such as katsuki, bbmolla, cephrir, especiallythelies or myself

It really can not possibly go wrong.

If we're meant to be together, change the way you see the weather.

Live for now, forget forever, we could still be here December!

[fferyllt]

Griping about cabd's gambits? I do not like gambits either. Do you? Especially town gambits. (See: Wake88)

I generally don't gambit, except in a few instances where I try not to fuck it up when a hydra partner decides to gambit. Or where my role-pm/wincon actually requires gambiting (see Achievement Unlocked Micro).

In the games I've played, Cabd's gambits as town have been as game-winning as his scum-gambits. I've come around to an opinion that gambits aren't always of the devil.

[Albert B. Rampage]

My IQ may only be this high once in November. Caffeine is a powerful drug and must be maximized.
I will VOTE: ABR though. This is the chosen wagon of the townblock.

VOTE: ABR

Probably the lynch for today. Espy at least has some town pings.

These two votes are coming out of nowhere, from players who have not indicated any prior suspicion of me. It feels as though you two put as much effort into those votes as I did this entire game. "ABR is the lynch the town has chosen" what kind of logic is that?

It sounds more like what Natirasha said, ABR is the scum-approved mislynch of the day. Not that Natirasha has to be town in order to say that.

Then Pjovek votes me, which is just incomprehensible. I don't think Pjovek is scum so this vote baffles me.

If we could turn our attention somewhere else while I stand back, collect evidence, and win the endgame for the town, that'd be great. Thanks.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm not sure about BBmolla anymore. Doesn't even seem committed to the game enough that I can get a solid read on him.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

<3 cabd.. i dont know your gambits but i have a distaste for them in general and do not find espeonage's distaste alignment indicative. That was the point. You pull a game winning gambit that doesnt piss me off and i'll concede your awesomeness.

[fferyllt]

Ffery, no offense, but you really like to zero in on stuff that paints an obscure picture that is hard to follow. You bang hard on that little shit, that to me, really doesn't mean anything. That's what I feel about the first quote. I feel it is a nothing issue.

Tone, timing and behavioral patterns are what I key in on, often as not. espeonage pinged early and then started to look more generically town. But, the example of his town play in an earlier game is something quite different from what I'm seeing here. And his posts yesterday, which came as his wagon started to pick up steam again, have a spaghetti-thrown-at-wall feel. They're full of vague accusations and innuendo, which is such a contrast to the game that projectmatt linked.

There, he addressed suspects directly and asked them questions, made observations to them.

Here, he's to a large extent picking up posts by other players to agree with and to add a little non-specific weight to. He's talking about the people he's accusing, not to them.

Go back through the posts I linked and see how many questions he asked, and how many direct accusations he's made.

[Pjovek]

My IQ may only be this high once in November. Caffeine is a powerful drug and must be maximized.
I will VOTE: ABR though. This is the chosen wagon of the townblock.

VOTE: ABR

Probably the lynch for today. Espy at least has some town pings.

These two votes are coming out of nowhere, from players who have not indicated any prior suspicion of me. It feels as though you two put as much effort into those votes as I did this entire game. "ABR is the lynch the town has chosen" what kind of logic is that?

It sounds more like what Natirasha said, ABR is the scum-approved mislynch of the day. Not that Natirasha has to be town in order to say that.

Then Pjovek votes me, which is just incomprehensible. I don't think Pjovek is scum so this vote baffles me.

If we could turn our attention somewhere else while I stand back, collect evidence, and win the endgame for the town, that'd be great. Thanks.

Well considering I've explained why I think you're scum early into the game, and you have done literally zero in the month between then and now, I'm not sure why you're acting surprised.


If you could actually look for scum, we can talk again about you putting chamber levels of effort into this game.

After

you've lynched 3 or so of them.
A great compromise, eh?

[Pjovek]

Ffery, no offense, but you really like to zero in on stuff that paints an obscure picture that is hard to follow. You bang hard on that little shit, that to me, really doesn't mean anything. That's what I feel about the first quote. I feel it is a nothing issue.

Tone, timing and behavioral patterns are what I key in on, often as not. espeonage pinged early and then started to look more generically town. But, the example of his town play in an earlier game is something quite different from what I'm seeing here. And his posts yesterday, which came as his wagon started to pick up steam again, have a spaghetti-thrown-at-wall feel. They're full of vague accusations and innuendo, which is such a contrast to the game that projectmatt linked.

There, he addressed suspects directly and asked them questions, made observations to them.

Here, he's to a large extent picking up posts by other players to agree with and to add a little non-specific weight to. He's talking about the people he's accusing, not to them.

Go back through the posts I linked and see how many questions he asked, and how many direct accusations he's made.

You should consider not using meta.
It will set you free from your curse.

Unrelated to the specific content of your post.

[Pjovek]

As for the specific content, talking about the people he's accusing instead of to them is actually way smarter of you want to lynch somebody.

You're never going to convince somebody that they're scum, you can convince other people that the accusee is scum.
Sounds easy right? Well it is.

I would normally do it too but it's funner to argue with people.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It's surprising to me that you latched on to my bandwagon from a month ago, and found nothing that you found suspicious since then.