Open 536: Faith Plus One Game Over! Mafia Win!

[T S O]

Am I the only one who thinks that the trade of Cop-for-2conf+1scum is a good deal?

Can you explain this to me? What do you mean?

ETL

That I believe Cop dead in exchange for a scum dead and 2 confirmed Faith Healers is good?

[Taylor]

I can read. I'm asking you to explain it further. Spell it out for me, please. I don't understand.

1) How is the cop dead?
2) How do we have 2 conf FH?
3) Who is the dead scum?

Are you referring to one of the plans? Please just be specific.

ETL

[Taylor]

Claim: Faith Healer. Which we've only been making obvious since the very damn beginning.

Dare I ask:
Crumbs?

As ETL said. No actual 'crumbs. But general attitude, hell yes.

Disturbing a hornet's nest is a good way to be stung, Pasch.
You're wasting time on us if you think us to be scum. Your suspicions are best cast elsewhere. If you think one of us is scum, you can lynch XScorpion first. If you want to progress from there, you can help us try to read pecan or a similar player. But our posts are anything but empty and fluffy. We have more content-filled posts than nearly any other player at this point in time.

You are correct that the reaction of my partner was overblown. But you have my word that it is null, coming from someone who was eager to play and who is expecting to learn. That is the only defense I can offer about it. We are town, Dale. Continuing to push us is about the worst possible thing you can do if you're also town. (Which we think you are.)

Full disclosure: At the time, ETL made a declaration of thinking Pasch was the cop. This being one of the main reasons we were townreading Pasch early-on, I was trying my damnedest to make it explicit. That investigating us would be a waste, and that he should look elsewhere. The first bit in particular, you can see it. "Your suspicions are best cast elsewhere" is about as blatant "INVESTIGATE SOMEONE ELSE, YOU MORON" as you can get without explicitly saying as much.

alright, well I learned that taylor is scummy now and Xscorpion doesn't like hydras

Scummy, but most certainly not scum.

@Taylor: It is absolutely not up to you what is or is not "alignment indicative".

Oh, Pasche, ye of little faith. You can be a good player, but this is certainly not you at your finest. The things I declared not indicative of alignment are things that

were decided before we

had

an alignment

. It's equivalent to accusing a player of lying about being on V/LA. It's not indicative of alignment because it's something happening outside of our alignment.

When it comes to the points I said were null (there's a difference between "not indicative of alignment" and "null"), you can argue otherwise. But I have no reason to lie about it being null.

That you think you can control everyone's perception of you and that you are trying so hard to do that definitely comes across as scummy.

It's what I do.

You might not know it yet, Pasch. But bluntly, drop the push against us. Because by the end of the game, it'll become painfully apparent we are town. I say it because it's true. Not because I want to control people's perception of me. They perceive me as being town, they're right. As scum, they're wrong. It's as simple as that.

Your attacks are focused on people attacking you, and your posts are all about how other people are wrong to suspect you.

On the contrary! Most of our attacks have been on players who later attack US. (Chronology is important.) But there are plenty of players who've attacked us that we're townreading. You, for instance, and to some extent helium.

You're town, Pasch. I know you are, you know you are. But I'm also town. We're also town. I can see where you're coming from. But simply put, it's wrong. We aren't scum. We're about as far from it as you can get.

I have to say that taylor's repeated townclaims look bad.

Only because, somehow, our anonymity has remained in-tact.

I'm saying I'm town because I am town. Period. That's the end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.

This wall is one giant continuation of the above. Again thinking that Pasch was a cop, I put in a LOT of effort to try and make sure that it was explicit as possible, that we were town and he should be focusing elsewhere. I emphasized that we were town, I emphasized that it'd be painfully obvious we were town (AND THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE A FUCKING PR), and that the push against us was so entirely wrong.

Pasch. I respect you as a player. I think you're town. I think you have talent. I don't throw those words idly around. So when I say this, I say it with the nicest possible intentions.

Fuck. off.

You. Are. Wrong. When I say you can trust me. I FUCKING MEAN YOU NEED TO BLOODY DAMN WELL TRUST ME. I am town. You are town. SO STOP BEING A STUBBORN ASS AND REASSESS THINGS. You're wasting your time on us. Seriously, SERIOUSLY going up the wrong tree.
------
So work with us. Don't sabotage us. We are town. You are town. You can be smart, so don't be stupid and discard this reach-out.

This, too. Again, work it from our perspective at the time, thinking Pasch was the cop. No 'crumbing, but an attitude that pretty damn much made it explicit.

There are a ton of posts from ETL as well, that when addressing scumreads on her are, simply put, "You. are. wrong."

Because, bluntly, I am not scum. Treating me as if I'm scum off of god-damned confirmation bias won't do anything but shoot the town in the foot. YOU. REALLY. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. BE. PUSHING. US. IF. YOU'RE. TOWN.

And fuck being "scum caught for the wrong reasons". Because the push against us is entirely made up of bullshit from players who are likely to be town (aside from Grimgroove who is about as obviously scum as he can be), who are pushing the worst possible lynch they could. You're right. There's frustration. BECAUSE PLAYERS. WHO I KNOW TO BE TOWN. ARE NOT. LISTENING. TO WHAT. I. AM. SAYING.

I am town. Period.

And another one from me, here. (Also, should be disclosed. I'd have to check the timestamps to be sure, but by this time, I believe ETL thought Guyett was the cop.) I was warning you guys. I had been warning you guys the whole damn day. Not to fuck around with us. To some extent, 572 and 579 have it as well.

You can see we thought Guyett was the cop in 647.

call it a pretty massive hunch

Bluntly, the hunch is wrong. If you stopped relying on shallow interactive tells and actually looked at the mindset BEHIND those interactions, you'd understand. Helium is town, and we're town. TSO is quite probably town, too, though that is admittedly not something I am certain of.

If you want to

focus your efforts

on one of us, sure, yeah,

focus them on TSO;

I'd love to know more about TSO

. But I still am sticking by that townread and think

your efforts would be better spent on, say, shos, who

we're trying to pin down a read on

.

Again, as blatantly as we could be, advertising to him that we thought we knew what he was, that we are town, and that we needed his help to find scum.

You know? We could come in and roleclaim here. But simply put? We don't need to. The wagon speaks for itself.

If we were a VT, why would roleclaiming put a stop to our wagon? Of course it wouldn't. The only way it would is if we were a PR. Like, y'know. A FAITH HEALER.

There is one piece of information I have that is absolutely, without a doubt, confirmed and true for me: my alignment. I know we are town, and I see you continuing to push a lynch on town. If anyone else here had this undeniable information about our alignment, your actions here would become as glaringly clear for them as they are for us.

We are not scum, but you are. There's more than one scum yet you are not even attempting to look anywhere else. This is not a town POV. Even if xscorp still felt we were scum, even when he did, he was pushing other people, asking other people questions, looking for scum motivation in other people's words and actions. You are not. You are

pushing a mislynch

, not scum hunting. Screaming about it seems to be the only option you have left.

ETL

This one from ETL displays the mindset as well. Not a 'crumb, but again, the general attitude.

When this game is over, I'm going to throw that post in your face. When all alignments are outed. I'm going to throw all your posts in your face. I don't even care if it's not sportsmanlike. I'm going to to it. Because if you

are

the cop, you deserve every bit of frustration you have gotten here. You know why? Because, if you

are

town, you have wasted so much fucking time on us. You have wasted our time, and town's time, and your time.

I hope you feel like shit when this is over with. I know that's a shitty thing to say. But I really do. I really do.

ETL

This one too, only far FAR moreso. Where ETL whether she meant to or not basically explicitly said that she was town, and even a faith healer.

Good call on claiming cop, Grim. Had you claimed Faith Healer, I'd be lynching your ass.

Why? Because WE are a faith healer. There would be two faith healers, allowing a scum-Grim to get away with the fakeclaim. We, being one of the faith healers, wouldn't have believed it for so much as a second, since it's a transparent scum tactic.

I thought groovy kid looked like pondscum

but it is not unusual for specials to look like scum, they throw off similar tells since they have hidden knowledge into the mechanics of the game and will be orienting themselves from that compass

.

That is all. That emoticon conveys my thoughts on your stance in this post perfectly, when you wrap it up saying this.

You know WHY I was posting this? Because WE ARE A SPECIAL. Who mollie was thinking looked like scum. And yet, she wasn't townreading us as she should be despite writing Grim off.

One day, people are gonig to look back on these first 50 pages and wonder: why didn't Taylor get lynched right there and then?

And on that day, you will go "Oh yeah cuz they were town."

And hopefully, smack yourself in the face multiple times.

ETL

To some extent, this one from ETL does it as well.

I get the feeling that Taylor has run out of nice mislynch options and so is testing the waters on me. What I don't get is this prissy garnering of support tactic, rather than just voting me and trying to build support for a wagon. It feels inherently scummy to ask people "hey what's your opinion of player x" while also cautiously noting on several occasions that they are scummy looking.

If Guyett wagon isn't going to move then opt me in for Taylor.

That is not at all what is happening, as you will see soon enough.

And this is her basically explicitly saying we're flipping faith healer.



All just from the first 200 posts of ours. There's probably more in the other 51. But you get the idea. We really couldn't have been broadcasting it heavier. No 'crumbs. But the attitude is crystal-clear without any ambiguity to it.

[Taylor]

Not going to bother with a check on Taylor. Someone in the T S O - sthar8 - pecanpie will be getting my attention.

sthar8, if not lynched, would be a stellar investigation. I don't think you could have a better target. TSO isn't a bad one, either, because while I think he's town, I'm not as sure about it as I'd like to be.

Taylor is starting to convince me as well She's really thinking like a real Faith Healer.

What the hell is going on here?

We ARE a real Faith Healer. THAT'S what's going on.

Majiffy, yes. Willing to compromise!

Definitely can go there! Majiffy's basically not townposting this game at all.

Mollies play here is NOTHING like her play in the recent Antihero game where she super obv towned.

I'd be the first to admit that she's not obvtowning as much as she should be, but it's still there, albeit far more subtle than I would prefer it being.

[T S O]

I can read. I'm asking you to explain it further. Spell it out for me, please. I don't understand.

1) How is the cop dead?
2) How do we have 2 conf FH?
3) Who is the dead scum?

Are you referring to one of the plans? Please just be specific.

ETL

I'm saying if Grimgroove dies as a result of FH fakeclaiming, I wouldn't actually mind it, since we then get the two real FH's to claim and get a scum lynch d2, leaving 2 conftowns.

I don't really see anything that could go wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating Grim's death.

[Taylor]

How would you have any way of knowing whether he died because our claim was fake or he died because the protect didn't work? You wouldn't. So how would you then determine, should a scum fakeclaim FH tomorrow, who was telling the truth and who wasn't?

We have been wagoned all day long. A lynch on us tomorrow would happen easily, especially if we do not lynch scum today, and grim dies before giving us any info. You would then have a dead FH, and the choice between two people, one of whom being scum.

I'm saying that I noticed crumbs from two different people today, and being a FH,

know that one of them is setting up to fake claim

. I believe it is Sthar8.

ETL

[T S O]

Fuck.

[T S O]

where did Sthar claim?/crumb

[Taylor]

Dude, seriously. I've been in the game for like four hours. It's day 1, we have no flips. I need to develop some reads and I asked for your help with that. The process is not instantaneous, and we're overlapping a bit, so there's no need to freak out.

p-edit tyvm grim. I was actually hoping for a summary of events rather than your reads, but I'll take the effort as a show of good

faith

.

[...] and other stuff.

What other stuff?

Massively high noise to signal.

Role/setup fishing that culminated in the plan thing.

No scumhunting- specifically, he was not attacking his scumreads but pushing a policy lynch instead.

The modkills post was a huge red flag

despite all that, our actual reads are pretty close. Arriving at the same conclusion from a different process means he's working with different information than me. That information appears to not be in the thread anywhere. That suggests either distancing or that my reads are otherwise wrong and he's attempting to exploit them. :. shos is a better lynch.

Im laughing loudly at the me-scum-planning-schemes thingie. Serioisly

Just a dog barking at cars? Agent of chaos and all that?

Then you'll have to do a damn better job than this if you want my vote, because I like shos for town.

See, no matter what

I

say, it won't convince you. Because

I'm

saying it. But if I keep up the repetition, you'll keep reexamining him and eventually come to the correct conclusion yourself. I have

faith

@Obscurity- play the game or replace out, please. We're quickly getting to the point where you're harming the town.

Add to this the fact that he advocated the outing of both FHs, despite crumbing, and attempted to direct our night actions. Plus the fact that he is pushing a shos lynch, which I no longer agree with, AND I played with his as scum in Antihero, where he played the same reasonable, placating, non-committal game.

There is absolutely no motivation for either of us to out our roles on D1, but Sthar8 is trying to sell it as a good idea.

ETL

[Taylor]

Simply read his plans from scum POV to see how scum are trying to take control here.

The other person I believe to be the real second FH has shown far more of a town mindset than Sthar8.

ETL

[Taylor]

How would you have any way of knowing whether he died because our claim was fake or he died because the protect didn't work? You wouldn't. So how would you then determine, should a scum fakeclaim FH tomorrow, who was telling the truth and who wasn't?

I should also add to this, that if I was scum attempting to bamboozle you all why the hell would I not confirm myself by NOT killing the person I say I'm going to protect, grim or otherwise? If we decide to protect grim and he dies, that is more reason to see that we are town and a real FH.

ETL

[helium-3]

Mollies play here is NOTHING like her play in the recent Antihero game where she super obv towned. I can't give more now as I'm off out to play the late late toy show drinking game.
I will likely be mouldey drunk so apologies in advance.

I actually now really want to be lynched to shove it in your face when I flip.

fucking liar oh yes it is. in fact out of all of my games that game is the

closest

to my play here since in that game I actually got run up (oh by who? scum) so that is an outright fucking lie.

pasch misreps the fuck out of our play this game - oh but its okay cos we are scum lololololz
nlord outright lies - oh but we're teh scumz lololololz
guyett - fucking is lying about my meta - oh even tho there are about 4 people who should defend this but it won't happen cos lololololz we're teh scumz

^^^ why are these 3 people allowed to get away with what they are doing?

[XScorpion]

Taylor the problem is that if you are scum and refuse to protect Grim then both of the real FHs will and he will die. Whereas if we tell you to protect Grim and he dies then probability suggests you are scum, because otherwise scum have to not only choose to lynch grim but also do so knowing he is protected AND win the coin flip for protection.

[T S O]

I don't know much about your meta, honestly.

[XScorpion]

By lynch I mean nightkill

[Guyett]

Actually mollies play is similar to the marvel vs dc game

[helium-3]

Mollies play here is NOTHING like her play in the recent Antihero game where she super obv towned.

I'd be the first to admit that she's not obvtowning as much as she should be, but it's still there, albeit far more subtle than I would prefer it being.[/quote]

wtf you have been saying all fucking game how town we are I mean you just said fuck no in lynching like 2 pages ago and now you are coughing up this hedge? WTF

[helium-3]

How would you have any way of knowing whether he died because our claim was fake or he died because the protect didn't work? You wouldn't. So how would you then determine, should a scum fakeclaim FH tomorrow, who was telling the truth and who wasn't?

We have been wagoned all day long. A lynch on us tomorrow would happen easily, especially if we do not lynch scum today, and grim dies before giving us any info. You would then have a dead FH, and the choice between two people, one of whom being scum.

I'm saying that I noticed crumbs from two different people today, and being a FH,

know that one of them is setting up to fake claim

. I believe it is Sthar8.

ETL

hey other fh! I have every faith you are not retarded so will you plz not protect groovy kid so that taylor can do it so that we can somewhat test their claim and get a view out of groovy kid? win! win! tia

[helium-3]

Actually mollies play is similar to the marvel vs dc game

I was town in that game too or did you forget

[Majiffy]

VOTE: Helium
Given Mollie plenty of opportunity to try to sort me. She has sat around and let a shit read carry over. This is not the TownMollie I know.

jiffy has done fuck all since subbing in.

-> 6-8 pages a day
-> Subbed in with < 72 hours till deadline
-> Already 50 or so pages before I came in

Pray tell what you expect me to do. I've given reads as I've acquired them. No one is interacting with me or trying to read me.

[Guyett]

Actually mollies play is similar to the marvel vs dc game

I was town in that game too or did you forget

Yeah I know... its throwing me a bit

[Majiffy]

Town
{

Guyett

,

shos

, TSO}

Scum
{

Taylor

,

Grim, Pecan

,

Helium

}

Null
{XScorpion, N64Lord, Blueberry, Paschendale, sthar8}

This is what I'm working with so far.

[XScorpion]

^ What do the fonts mean

[XScorpion]

Town
{

Guyett

,

shos

, TSO}

Scum
{

Taylor

,

Grim, Pecan

,

Helium

}

Null
{XScorpion, N64Lord, Blueberry, Paschendale, sthar8}

This is what I'm working with so far.

If these are your reads then you should definitely agree that Taylor should protect Grim because that way the two real FH's will protect actual town. What do you say?

[Majiffy]

Bolded are stronger, italicized are weaker. And sure, do whatever PR playspec bullshit you want. I don't think we're cracking this open with night actions on d1.