Micro 267 - Indie Game: The UPick - Game Over!

[TierShift]

I was responding to the last part of the post, what would happen if who was scum.

I'm also pretty sure who would rewind time if scum were lynched and he were NK'd for the town but eh let'S leave that be.

I get the feeling everyone is willfully misrepping me.

[Trine]

Townread on Trine shattered ftr.

It's not the first time I've valued my read over set-up spec. But in this case the set-up spec expert among my compatriots didn't believe the role makes sense in a 9p game, which gave me more reason to trust my read.

I translate player reactions to Who's claim based on my own thoughts as events unfolded.

And, I am happy with our TV vote. I didn't like the way they backed off their vote almost instantly. Unlike most of town, it's like they knew right away the claim was legitimate.

Tier's quick back-off and return is also suspicious. I'm weighing that against a town-sense from some of his other stances.

~ Zoya

[XScorpion]

I was responding to the last part of the post, what would happen if who was scum.

I'm also pretty sure who would rewind time if scum were lynched and he were NK'd for the town but eh let'S leave that be.

I get the feeling everyone is willfully misrepping me.

If who was scum and you were town, then we trade a mislynch on you for a scumlynch on Who. Given that your role is shitty, I don't see why you wouldn't jump at this opportunity (I would if I was town).

[TierShift]

I think you lied about having read my posts and having responded to my reasoning.

I already said countless times that if who were scum, a me mislynch would be absolutely unnecessary. I was pretty sure that who was scum so I hammered.

Please don't tell me you would deliberately mislynch yourself to get someone else lynched that you are sure is scum when you can just hammer said person.

[XScorpion]

I think you lied about having read my posts and having responded to my reasoning.

I already said countless times that if who were scum, a me mislynch would be absolutely unnecessary. I was pretty sure that who was scum so I hammered.

Please don't tell me you would deliberately mislynch yourself to get someone else lynched that you are sure is scum when you can just hammer said person.

No, but I would deliberately mislynch myself if it gave us 100% certainty to catch scum, which in this case it would. That's a lot better than your 'pretty sure' chance. Instead you fuck everyone over and lynch the PR because of your scum survival instincts. Nice try though.

[TierShift]

There is a point where the benefit of verifying if someone is scum is outweighed by the losing of 2 town members (yes 2, there's a NK) and that point is based on the chance that said person (in this case who) is scum.
Lemme put it like this: if you're 99% sure someone is scum, you are not sacrificing your ass for a 1% chance he ain't scum.
I think the chance that who was scum was so very high that I wouldn't sacrifice myself. I don't regret hammering who, I don't think I've done something wrong. Nobody has brought up valid points as to why who wasn't scummy enough for me to hammer. You've only brought up the possibility for a d2 PL which would never pull me out of the grave if who is scum.

I'm gonna summarize it one last time for ya:
There was a chance who was town, in which case a PL d2 or reverting time after NK would have been best.
There also was a chance that who was scum, in which case hammering was best. It would have been better than a PL d2 so idg what you're ramblin about, BRO.
I know that the benefits of not hammering versus hammering in scenario 1 are far greater than the benefits of hammering versus not hammering in scenario 2, but I thought scenario 2 to be

many times

more likely. So I hammered.

That's the logic I've been using all day and no one's dared to call me out on it being wrong. So stop fucking whining about my hammer if the reasoning behind it is right.
Scorp tell me why this can't be town reasoning.

On another note, I find it interesting how scorp is only comfortable when pushing for my lynch, when he's under pressure he plays fucking horrible.

[XScorpion]

There is a point where the benefit of verifying if someone is scum is outweighed by the losing of 2 town members (yes 2, there's a NK) and that point is based on the chance that said person (in this case who) is scum.
Lemme put it like this: if you're 99% sure someone is scum, you are not sacrificing your ass for a 1% chance he ain't scum.
I think the chance that who was scum was so very high that I wouldn't sacrifice myself. I don't regret hammering who, I don't think I've done something wrong. Nobody has brought up valid points as to why who wasn't scummy enough for me to hammer. You've only brought up the possibility for a d2 PL which would never pull me out of the grave if who is scum.

I'm gonna summarize it one last time for ya:
There was a chance who was town, in which case a PL d2 or reverting time after NK would have been best.
There also was a chance that who was scum, in which case hammering was best. It would have been better than a PL d2 so idg what you're ramblin about, BRO.
I know that the benefits of not hammering versus hammering in scenario 1 are far greater than the benefits of hammering versus not hammering in scenario 2, but I thought scenario 2 to be

many times

more likely. So I hammered.

That's the logic I've been using all day and no one's dared to call me out on it being wrong. So stop fucking whining about my hammer if the reasoning behind it is right.
Scorp tell me why this can't be town reasoning.

On another note, I find it interesting how scorp is only comfortable when pushing for my lynch, when he's under pressure he plays fucking horrible.

There's a NK, but there's also a chance for town PRs to do things, which includes (at the very least) a use of the weak visitor (which you knew existed). Regardless, 2 town for 1 scum is still a win for town. You made the wrong choice. The reasoning is wrong. You are scum. Die already.

[Grimgroove]

Ok, so I'm catching up with this soon, but I want to get these thoughts out first.

When I said I didn't like certain things, I was referring to XScorpion, Trine, Desperado and Eek at the start of Day 1 Bis.
I almost don't know whzere to begin.

Eek and Trine were both giving TierShift heat for the hammer on Who. But as I see it, they were both in a position to unvote Who after his claim, and thus were in no position to paint that hammer off as scummy in the way they did it, without being terrible hypocrites.
Desperado's 479 says exactly that. The only problem with Desperado? He himself put TierShift at L-1 just before it. Why the hell would you put someone who's being attacked by someone you genuinely have a good argument against at L-1? The term for this is: setting up lynches.
And XScorpion 482 is full of scumtells. Over the top disappointment over what happened, calling me town for no reason.

So those were my initial impressions of Day 2.

Then I saw Tiershift's claim. Sounds pro-town and completely fitting the game he claimed. And that led me to thinking about a possible game-breaking strategy. What I think should be done is that we all flavor claim. When looking at Who's role and at Tiershift's and BRO's claims one thing has become abundantly clear: Alduskkel received our game-preferences first, and only thens tarted writing the roles based on those games.

This gamebreaker is assuming scum didn't get fake roles, but the idea behind everyone flavor claiming now, is to give scum less leeway to fakeclaim later. Just look at how perfectly the claims/roles fit the games so far.

And I don't want to accuse the mod of anything,b ut somehow I don't think Who's role could have been scum-sided (because useless), and neither could Tiershift's claim (what good is QT-investigations for scum?) and neither could a weak neighbourizer (granting more credence to Bro's initial terrible claim).

As to my vote, I'm putting it here,

VOTE: Trine

Further elaboration on that tomorrow. But already during the end of Day 1 he (I'm especially referring to the Zoya head) has been giving me the heebieejeebies.

And also, Who, what is your role now, after you were lynched? Any side effects we should know of?

[XScorpion]

There is a point where the benefit of verifying if someone is scum is outweighed by the losing of 2 town members (yes 2, there's a NK) and that point is based on the chance that said person (in this case who) is scum.

No one actually believes this, do they?
"99%" is bullshit and you know it. NO ONE was that sure Who was scum.

what good is QT-investigations for scum?

Masons/neighbours. Besides, there's no way to verify the QT messages aren't made up anyway.

Also visitor =/= neighbourizer.

I don't mind flavor claiming day 2, but claiming day 1 only helps scum to figure out who might have certain power roles (e.g. I wonder what role Robocop would have hurr durr).
Anyway Tier is lying about his role so it doesn't matter.

[Trine]

e both giving TierShift heat for the hammer on Who. But as I see it, they were both in a position to unvote Who after his claim, and thus were in no position to paint that hammer off as scummy in the way they did it, without being terrible hypocrites

You display no understanding whatsoever about what concerned me in Tier's play.

TV's play is of greater concern.

There is a point where the benefit of verifying if someone is scum is outweighed by the losing of 2 town members (yes 2, there's a NK) and that point is based on the chance that said person (in this case who) is scum.

No one actually believes this, do they?
"99%" is bullshit and you know it. NO ONE was that sure Who was scum.

what good is QT-investigations for scum?

Masons/neighbours. Besides, there's no way to verify the QT messages aren't made up anyway.

Also visitor =/= neighbourizer.

I don't mind flavor claiming day 2, but claiming day 1 only helps scum to figure out who might have certain power roles (e.g. I wonder what role Robocop would have hurr durr).
Anyway Tier is lying about his role so it doesn't matter.

Why do you say Tier is lying about his role?

~ Zoya

[TierShift]

There's a NK, but there's also a chance for town PRs to do things, which includes (at the very least) a use of the weak visitor (which you knew existed). Regardless, 2 town for 1 scum is

still

a win for town.

You made the wrong choice. The reasoning is wrong. You are scum. Die already.

The use of still there means you agree that there actually is a better situation but that this one is already good. Why wouldn't I want the better situation?
The part in italics is your strongest point on me so far. Wow. You so good.

Stop selectively quoting and willfully misrepping me.

P-edit: I was saying that I was sure

enough

Okay your strongest point against me has come only now! I'm lying! Hurr durr all sheep scorp.

I'm agreeing with gg on the claiming flavor, I'm pretty sure alduskkel can make up at least 5 roles for each flavor.
FOR REFERENCE SEE WHO'S BULL ROLE

[XScorpion]

Why do you say Tier is lying about his role?

Because it is impossible to verify, and unlike Bro's claim, the results he comes up with don't actually mean anything.

[XScorpion]

I'm agreeing with gg on the claiming flavor, I'm pretty sure alduskkel can make up at least 5 roles for each flavor.

Scum

[BROseidon]

But anyway, discussing when the best possible time for who to rewind was is not gonna help us any further. BRO, do as I asked, please.

But gauging reactions to the claim and the wagon will.

And I'm going to be a dick when people around me do blatantly stupid shit.

[BROseidon]

There also was a chance that who was scum, in which case hammering was best. It would have been better than a PL d2 so idg what you're ramblin about, BRO.

Nope.

Equivalent in all win cases except for a perfect game. I'm going to play a numbers game over a game for a perfect win.

[BROseidon]

{Eek Tiershift Trine}

Scum are in there.

[Trine]

Why do you say Tier is lying about his role?

Because it is impossible to verify, and unlike Bro's claim, the results he comes up with don't actually mean anything.

That doesn't make it a lie.

Given what has been revealed about the set up, town must have some null utility or even negative utility roles. Or scum must be exceptionally buffed.

[XScorpion]

Why do you say Tier is lying about his role?

Because it is impossible to verify, and unlike Bro's claim, the results he comes up with don't actually mean anything.

That doesn't make it a lie.

Given what has been revealed about the set up, town must have some null utility or even negative utility roles. Or scum must be exceptionally buffed.

Going with the latter. I think there are either 3 scum, or 2 scum with crazy-good abilities.

[Trine]

Why do you say Tier is lying about his role?

Because it is impossible to verify, and unlike Bro's claim, the results he comes up with don't actually mean anything.

That doesn't make it a lie.

Given what has been revealed about the set up, town must have some null utility or even negative utility roles. Or scum must be exceptionally buffed.

Going with the latter. I think there are either 3 scum, or 2 scum with crazy-good abilities.

I expect some from column A and some from column B.

[XScorpion]

Why do you say Tier is lying about his role?

Because it is impossible to verify, and unlike Bro's claim, the results he comes up with don't actually mean anything.

That doesn't make it a lie.

Given what has been revealed about the set up, town must have some null utility or even negative utility roles. Or scum must be exceptionally buffed.

Going with the latter. I think there are either 3 scum, or 2 scum with crazy-good abilities.

I expect some from column A and some from column B.

If you aren't scum then I bet you're column A.

[Turkish Van]

TierShift, why would Who necessarily want to have played in a way that draws the NK? What if he did that and we'd lynched scum? Then his getting NK's resurrects scum as well. Being policy lynched on a non-D1 day is nominally better, but on the whole of it, playing as town as possible and waiting for an opportune day to rewind is ideal.

--PA

Of all the things, this is what you choose to reply to?

Because it was something that other people weren't already discussing and I wanted to know more about his thought process as far as why he thought Who had misplayed his role badly enough to justify the lynch.

You backed off of the Who wagon awfully quick after his claim, while still voicing suspicion on him. It smells like distancing.

-Amadeus

No, it smells like it was a claim that merited further discussion. I unvoted to buy that discussion time and consider how such a non-standard role would work to our advantage if it was true. I think that there were a lot of ways to handle the claim that weren't lynching him Day One, most obviously telling him that he would be expected to use it at the first opportunity to bring back zero dead scum and minimum one dead townie or be policy lynched.

At the time I unvoted, Who was at L-1. The threat of having multiple living confirmed town a couple days into the game might have been enough to make scum quickhammer that wagon. Given how quickly it built back up, I sure don't regret the unvote.

I believe [Tier's] claim. Flavor fits and his page 20 posting feels really honest and I got a town vibe from that. Unvote

Looking at TierShift's posts on page 20, that's where he starts pushing you as scum. As such, this looks a lot like you backing off someone who pushes back at you in a way that has a good chance of defusing their suspicion. What feels so honest, and what makes you believe the claim beyond it fitting flavor?

I don't like the way MME is defending his not following a logical plan from BRO when it was presented to him under the guise of wanting to make his own mistakes.

Looking back at Trine pre-Who lynch:

Who is not town!

Let me spell it out for you guys: That ability is way too powerful and game breaking for a game of this size, especially since

roles were determined before alignment

and this role is predicated on the user being town. Let's not forget that there are better ways to create a role centered around Who's character. For instance, and this one is just off the top of my head, resetting the day phase, deadline and all. No alignments are revealed, it's not game breaking, and it's perfect as either alignment. Furthermore, and I can't stress this enough,

there is no way town would claim this role at this point, especially with the way he claims the time travel mechanic works

. Who as town would be better off letting himself get lynched, having his role and alignment revealed, claiming after the reset happens, and then basking in the conf. town glory. And if you think that scum would kill him if he had that role, think again. Would scum really kill someone who could create 2 conf. town upon death? No freaking way! It's too convenient. It's too overpowered. And most of all,

there is absolutely no reason to claim, especially to escape a lynch

. This is a survival tactic, plain and simple. And there's only one alignment that wants to survive that much.

-Amadeus

The idea here that Who was better off being lynched without claiming his role is ludicrous. People have pointed out how Who's role would have been better used even if we'd policy lynched him Day Two. The rationale here for staying on the wagon doesn't follow. Sure, scum wouldn't kill him in a situation where it wasn't to their advantage, but given that his power was also useable without him dying it wouldn't have been up to them.

Right now My Milked Eek tops my list.

VOTE: My Milked Eek

[Alduskkel]

Vote Count 1.04b

My Milked Eek (2) - BROseidon, Turkish Van
TierShift (2) - Desperado, XScorpion
XScorpion (2) - My Milked Eek, TierShift
Turkish Van (1) - Trine
Trine (1) - Grimgroove

Not Voting (1) - Who

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

Deadline is on December 28th, 7 p.m. PST.

Countdown:
(expired on 2013-12-28 19:00:00)

[Trine]

First off, Bro, you need to get off your high horse and get rid of this "When I'm right, I'm right, and when I'm wrong, I'm right." attitude you have. If not, I fear this game is going to humble you real quick. Were we wrong in our approach to the Who wagon? Yes, but that does not give you the right to adopt a holier than thou attitude, especially since there were valid reasons for why we, and those like us, made the decisions that we did.

Second, I think only 1 scum is the most that is likely to be on the Who wagon. Scum are going to try to distance themselves from this one and use it as a means to mislynch town. We need to be looking at who is trying to do so.

That brings me to Scorp. He's doing exactly that, focusing exclusively on the Who wagon and tunneling hard in the hopes that town doesn't consider any other avenues. It's during this push that he's made some mistakes, slipping away from that town veneer that he's built up. The contradictory stances are a big one. Plus, Eek is right, he is flailing and mindlessly pushing in the way where he's trying to make everything from his targets look scummy without actually considering intent. This shows that he's more interested in scoring a lynch than finding scum. However, the biggest point against him is his blatant buddying of Bro. He's taken every opportunity he can to stroke Bro's ego and get on his good side. Which is funny, since Scorp wasn't paying attention to anything that Bro was saying when he was pushing the Who wagon. Yet all of a sudden he's regurgitating Bro's points of view and using them to try to lynch others on the Who wagon?

Des why are you lurking?

Because it's Eek and Tier (and Trine if Who's role means we started 6-3) and my work here is done.

This is lazy, generic and not what I'd expect of you. Heck, you just quoted Bro's list right back at him.

Eek and Trine were both giving TierShift heat for the hammer on Who.

Where were we giving Tier heat for hammering Who? All Zoya did was ask him about the motivation for his unvote and vote. I wouldn't call that giving him heat. Why do you?

Unvote

Vote XScorpion

-Amadeus

[Trine]

What I think should be done is that we all flavor claim.

Forgot about this one. Why do you suggest everyone flavor claim, yet then not flavor claim?

-Amadeus

[TierShift]

I'm agreeing with gg on the claiming flavor, I'm pretty sure alduskkel can make up at least 5 roles for each flavor.

Scum

?

Why do you say Tier is lying about his role?

Because it is impossible to verify, and unlike Bro's claim, the results he comes up with don't actually mean anything.

I'm sorry that I got qn unverifiable role? How about this: I publicly announce the pm the mod gives me tomorrow and you verify and tell me if you've posted that in the QT.

There also was a chance that who was scum, in which case hammering was best. It would have been better than a PL d2 so idg what you're ramblin about, BRO.

Nope.

Equivalent in all win cases except for a perfect game. I'm going to play a numbers game over a game for a perfect win.

Assuming that we win, that is. My play would give us room for an extra mislynch later on.

Scorp, address the points made against you and please use a better defence than: "trine, eek and tier are all scum".