Newbie 1444 ~ Game Ovah ~ Mafia Win

[Thor665]

Hey, if you learn from it no worries on my end.

The important thing is just about understanding why you did what you did, and whether it was overall a good line of thought or a bad one. If it's good (even if wrong) keep doing it, if it was bad (even if right) then you need to understand it enough to change it to be better next time. If you can't describe why people are voting a wagon then, even if you agree with the wagon, you should still try to get that info out of them for later analysis. Even if I had flipped scum it would have been good info to have because...y'know, what were their reasons? Were they bussing me, or were they just town? You would have a hard time telling without knowing their reasoning *then*, you don't want it later, you want it at the moment.

[talah]

Oh- Oh- Thor, do me :)

Sorry for the replace - external factors.

From my own perspective I got a good bunch of paranoia on in the mid-stages especially with such low activity, or at least without the means to interrogate in semi-real time. Funnily I was so so unsure of you Thor just because of the amount of posts you made which were 'I've already explained that' whereas I was constantly feeling like you were evading elucidating on specificities. I did follow the remainder of the game skimmingly, and noticed how hard it was to keep up with who had replaced who, actually, in the end.

Interesting that town didn't push no-lynch at 4 player lylo too.

Anyway thanks to all, and this is a reminder of just how hard Newbie games are. I think what I'll take out of this for myself, is to always keep in mind the amount of scum left in the game, and try to contain (inevitable) paranoia to that number. And to try to explain more of what I'm thinking and feeling at that level, more directly. I think townies pick up on it and respond accordingly.

And if I was scum, I'd be patting myself on the back for the win ;D

Good game folks, pleasure doing business with you.

[Thor665]

Oh- Oh- Thor, do me

You were a frustrating slot to me because you looked pretty town, but seemed utterly unwilling to try to understand the Burn case even though you asked for it (and received it...) multiple times. I think the biggest issue with us was one of poor communication, and at least on my end I eventually gave up trying because I couldn't figure out where the breakdown was. I thought I had laid the case out for you quite clearly, and yet you kept asking for it for some reason...I'll be curious as to your own thoughts on that one.

As far as the rest of your play, I clearly think your Burn=Town case was pretty bad, though at least you explained it, and you were a little blind on Sakura (when someone asks you the case on her and your answer is 'my entire iso' that is probably a tunnel case, not a good case). That said, your play was still overall quite townish. You had stances, you generally were willing to explain them clearly, and you were painfully obvious in your desire to debate and question conclusions, all of which is solid, solid, pro-town stuff. Heck, by Day 3 your reads were starting to narrow down in good ways and most of your reads were pretty accurate. I'd say if you can avoid mental tunnels (you should always be able to explain the case you have and present it in words) and also if you can figure out the miscommunication thing with me (why did you keep asking me for my Burn case...like, literally the 1st or 2nd thing you asked of me was for the case, and I gave it to you, and then you just kept asking constantly every time I wanted to lynch Burn) it would tighten up your game. A lot of your other play is already quite good and doesn't need much help...besides avoiding needing replacement

Interesting that town didn't push no-lynch at 4 player lylo too.

The scumpool was down to two players - if they had no lynched one of the obv. town players would have been NKed and they would have been in the exact same situation with no new info.

The only time a 4p Lylo is worth no lynching on is if you have 4 scumspects, or no generally agreed upon town read, or have some interesting PR interactions still possible (like a claimed Doc you're not sure is the Doc or something)

I actually usually advocate avoiding the no lynch in that setup, because I think it's just being lazy and dumb most of the time. I do admit I am in the strategic minority when it comes to that, but I think the evidence is clearly in support of my position. It's bizzare how many times I see a 4p lylo go something like "Well, scum is either X or Y...thank gawd no one suspects Z...let's no lynch because 4p lylo!....oh, Z is dead and was town...well, scum is either X or Y and now quickhammers from scum are possible and we don't have Z for input anymore, huzzah, what a pro-town strategy!"

[Bulbazak]

I think Thor just summarized why I don't advocate voting no lynch. If you're going to no lynch, then let it be a decision at the end of the day in Mylo, instead of your go to response. Essentially, if you're in Mylo, and you're still not getting anywhere after a full day of discussion, THEN you should no lynch.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I think the biggest issue with that strategy is the number of people who just follow it blindly. Like with so many things in this game, there are few absolutes, and the individual situation should be assessed.

[talah]

From memory I felt like the case on burn was boiling down to double standards, so was really looking to find just what nuances of the thinking you felt were more likely scum than not.

Thank you for the detailed feedback.

Also congrats on your professional jailkeeping :) heheh

[Thor665]

From memory I felt like the case on burn was boiling down to double standards, so was really looking to find just what nuances of the thinking you felt were more likely scum than not.

There was no double standard.
Let's look at this again;

Here I am answering your question of what the case is;

Okay, but...I'm actually confused as to your inability to see where I was getting at considering you think his 'brain to paper' reaction is all swell (and, indeed, that's the crux of his defense) Allow me to spell it out even more slowly.

1. He understands that reads can change and are not set in stone.
2. He understands that pressure reads exist.
3. He understands that pressuring people is a pro-town thing.
4. He used an answer that you liked that can be summed up as "because it's what I thought, so I shared it with people!"
5. He had no issue with my pressure on Daughter

and...

He thought it was sloppy and bad of me to announce that I'd be willing to lynch him.


Do you notice the disconnect now?

You reply that you basically think he had no strategy behind doing that (something I never claimed he did) and decided, basically, that him contradicting himself was a towntell because scum would, presumably, be more careful.

I then say that you appear to understand my case and just disagree with it, so why ask me about it?
You return with this clunker of, basically, 'Thor is being pro-town so he's possibly scum'

To the second, Post 74 makes your intentions slightly clearer (if retroactively) but I wouldn't presume to put anything past you as scum, including extremely pro-town Day 1 play driving town out of RVS which inadvertently ends in a speedlynch.

It dies down for a while with you pushing Gale/Sakura and me pushing Burn more. You then ask this;

If you have the time, I'd be interested in your case on burn, if you feel strongly about it.

Which...is a case I'd told you about already, and you had said you understood.
I repeat the case to you.

You express willingness to lynch Sakura or Burn.

The next day Burn is town for you for reasons of...not sure.
You occasionally kind of poke at me to "update my case" as though, somehow, as a case becomes older it loses veracity.
You manage to spot that Zipper is iffy and you and I more or less find common ground trying to get him dead though Bald keeps distracting you (in your defense, Bald was trying really hard to be distracting)
You then replace out.

That was pretty much it.

You couldn't particularly explain your Burn=town case. (the best you got was he was 'open' and had committed a special town tell of yours)
I explained my case to you multiple times.
You never told me you saw a double standard there, and if you had I would have crushed that thought.
Like I said, it really felt like we were having issues communicating even though I had you as town and, at least on Day 2, you seemed to have the same read on me.

[talah]

There was no double standard.

Him demonstrating a double-standard by considering pro-town behaviour coming from you which was *aimed* at him, to be scummy. People tend to react differently and have their double-standards or hypocrisies when it comes to people treating themselves in certain ways. So I didn't consider it a slam-dunk scumtell in and of itself that he might feel differently about attacks aimed at him, if he was town.
But anyway, yeah you were right on that one and it appears that the miscommunication continues a mite :s

You reply that you basically think he had no strategy behind doing that (something I never claimed he did) and decided, basically, that him contradicting himself was a towntell because scum would, presumably, be more careful.

I didn't go back through the game but it wasn't the contradiction that had me townreading him. It was mainly his verbosity I think.

I then say that you appear to understand my case and just disagree with it, so why ask me about it?

...so was really looking to find just what nuances of

the

his contradictory

thinking

which you in your bearded gloriousness

felt were more likely

to manifest in this particular way coming from a

scum

mindset, rather

than

not

being just one of those generally hypocritical things that people tend to do from time to time

.

^modified for clarity.

You return with this clunker of, basically, 'Thor is being pro-town so he's possibly scum'

This is true enough, although the indication there was that I was tending to think you were town, despite my own misgivings about this pro-town behaviour being something you'd be able to emulate as scum.

Which...is a case I'd told you about already, and you had said you understood.
I repeat the case to you.

I'll readily admit fail there - I should have realised that your case *was* the one you explained.
Honestly I thought you were using burn as interactionbait (thus my post 74 retroactive clarification of intention statement) and didn't think you had actually pretty much 100% decided for yourself, already, that burn was scum.

You express willingness to lynch Sakura or Burn.

The next day Burn is town for you for reasons of...not sure.

burn really should have been the lynch Day 2 at deadline to clarify you-Town if he flipped scum and provide a bunch of information by way of interactions and opinions, if he flipped town.
Anyway I think I was voting bald at the time I replaced.

You couldn't particularly explain your Burn=town case. (the best you got was he was 'open' and had committed a special town tell of yours)

Call it stubborn.
Since the tell's obviously not an oracle, I'll call it the 'Alright talah' tell.

Like I said, it really felt like we were having issues communicating even though I had you as town and, at least on Day 2, you seemed to have the same read on me.

Yup.

[maria13]

Thank you Thor for your summary. It's nice that you like to do this.

[Thor665]

It's what they pay me the bigs bucks for.

...though now that you mention it I'm not sure I've seen a check yet.

[Mina]

Goodbye.