NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[pieguyn]

all my townreads on him were part of the gambit. the tinfoil theory was indeed this one but up till now I never said exactly what it was, just that SAD was scum and a part of it

I'm currently in the middle of typing up a more detailed explanation give me a few more minutes

[goodmorning]

3. giests are cleared by gunsmith
4. KoreanBBQ is

town as hell

scum that tried to softclaim vig.

FTFY!

This argument is still bad, and you should still feel bad.

Lets lynch me instead.

I'm a VT, so nothing to lose.

I'm tired, stressed, and totally done with this game.

*whistles*

So you "claimed" under absolutely no pressure at all, trying to draw a lynch to yourself and we're all supposed to a) believe you and b) believe that's something town does?

Question, since you want them: why would Scum intentionally draw a lynch in that situation?

[Titus]

3. giests are cleared by gunsmith
4. KoreanBBQ is

town as hell

scum that tried to softclaim vig.

FTFY!

This argument is still bad, and you should still feel bad.

Lets lynch me instead.

I'm a VT, so nothing to lose.

I'm tired, stressed, and totally done with this game.

*whistles*

So you "claimed" under absolutely no pressure at all, trying to draw a lynch to yourself and we're all supposed to a) believe you and b) believe that's something town does?

Question, since you want them: why would Scum intentionally draw a lynch in that situation?

It was never meant to work. Just meant as an appeal saying SC is town for reasons.


Pushing the guy who softclaimed vig when he cannot b a vig is a good of reason as any. Look at all the people pushing me as scum when I have had two theories. 1) At least SH or Casso is scum an 2> kbbq is scum. Usually ppl don't jump all over me as a replacemen so fast. It suggests I am on the right path.

[KoreanBBQ]

Just meant as an appeal saying SC is town for reasons.

SC wagon will be opposed like fuck just like last time, so don't even bother with it today.
Do that tomorrow.

[KoreanBBQ]

SC: go die if you don't know my read on him

This still holds water rite?

[pieguyn]

@F-16:

this should be everything. let me know if I missed smth

1004 here he kind of starts trolling me a bit. this makes me think scum bc he said somewhere he likes trolling and manipulating people as scum

also i dunno if the "elaborate plz" was directed at my comment about marketplace3 but going back to the way nacho has approached his read on me here, the thing i really didn't like about it (and something i couldn't really mention while marketplace was ongoing) is that nacho should really know this isn't how i play scum. he should know i like manipulating and trolling people as scum, and the fact he thinks my lack of engagement is something likely to come from me as scum is fucking bullshit. this is the biggest issue i had with the way he was trying to "sort" me.

plus i don't believe he thought anything he was doing was going to give him an idea of my alignment either way, and the conclusions he comes to based off my posts are just bad.

IF anyone were going to notice this isn't my scum game here, i expected it to be nacho, and the fact he still thinks i'm scum atm is at least a cause for concern even apart from the weak reasoning for it

the first paragraph and last sentence is smth he kept doing in marketplace where he basically kept saying that the way he was playing was undoubtedly his town game, and that there was no way this would be his scum game. one example from marketplace is 3715, last paragraph. everything he did in there was so that ffery/cabd would townread him when they did a metadive on him and then when I pushed on him here he came up with that paragraph and kept saying it was his town game. here he's doing a similar thing by comparing to marketplace. idk if it's actually alignment indicative and I don't know if he does this as town too but there's a bunch of parallels

ok. i'm not convinced you're town but you're right that i don't agree with your lynch. the reason i'm not pushing anyone else yet is because i'm still going over ISOs. i made yours a priority read because of the wagon on you.

the things i don't like are the things i don't like and i'm not going to avoid mentioning those things just because i think you might be town. your read progression on me is still one of the things i don't like about you because i don't understand how you went from initially thinking i'm town to thinking i'm scum (or at least a worthwhile vote) to changing your mind about me at some point between the end of D1 and that reads list you recently gave to now thinking i'm scum again (or at least that i've earned "scum points"?). it'd be nice if you actually explained what was going on with this.

his major complaint about casso was that he thought casso wasn't trying to sort him. and here he notices that SAD's read on him flip flopped a lot, however he still thinks SAD is probably town, despite the fact he had claimed in a previous post he didn't like how SAD vote parked on him, which for me indicates he wasn't really trying to figure zmuffin out.

looking through SAD's ISO, there really wasn't much questioning towards zmuffin when his vote was on him D1, which reinforces this: 2110 ~ 2631
there was afaik only 1 post directed towards zmuffin in there

I get that his read on casso was specific to nacho himself, but I was talking with him about how I didn't think SAD was legitimately trying to sort me and I'd expect he'd take kind of an interest in it considering it's the same general problem he was having with casso. he also claimed the way SAD was forming reads was town but the way SAD came up with his read on me didn't seem like he was trying to figure anything out at all, and same thing with SAD's read on zmuffin. so I don't get why he was reading SAD as town despite the fact he was doing the same shit he accused Nacho of doing

not really. i must admit paying attention to sad's read progression on you wasn't high on my list of priorities this game (shocking, i know). but i'll take your word for it. when did you ask him about it?

here I point out that SAD did the exact same thing with me. SAD initially had me as null, then town (which he still hasn't explained where his original townread on me came from), then flipped to scum, and now back to town again. but the problem here is that there was absolutely no followup to this question. if he was legitimately noticing SAD flip flopping reads as town then he should be more interested in the fact that SAD did the same thing to me and I'd think he'd be way more skeptical. instead I gave my response 4407 and then there was no response to it. the fact that he wasn't more interested in this IMO indicates he wasn't actually interested in scumhunting SAD in the first place.

you have a very skewed view of my towngame. xenogears was an entirely different ballpark. there i was worried because the only two still-living players scumreading you at the time were me and ghostlin, who were fairly obviously going to be killed off consecutively on the following nights (and we both did end up dying consecutively on the following nights). i was worried there that you'd talk yourself out of a lynch because nobody else who wanted you dead would be around to really push you

here i don't have any of the same concerns. i'm not exactly a priority kill in the current gamestate, i'm not particularly worried about there being too few people who want to lynch you, and i don't see you being able to bullshit your way through the game much longer (although you seem to be doing an OK job of making people waver on you atm).

i'm also slightly worried because all the major wagons being considered atm (aside from SAD) are wagons on my scum reads, and generally that means i'm really, really wrong somewhere and i dunno where

two things here. the first sentence is the same thing I brought up before about affirming this is his towngame. second he still has a townread on SAD which I still don't get. it's also interesting how he makes a point to bring up the SAD wagon even though it's no longer a major wagon, which seems kind of odd, but idk if it means anything

maraca, geists,

domo

, goodmorning*
f16, bro
bbq, generic, pieguy, sakura, sad, cephrir
norlkaz

desperado

, bert
casso, mafiassk

pieguy, generic up, norlkaz down

rest of this list unchanged

this is where he moved me up in his townpile and I don't think he ever gave a reason for it. note that this was right after my VCA wall where I accused casso of bussing SSK. I get the feeling he did this so that I'd take his side in the casso debate

if we were lynching someone other than SSK today, why sad over casso? what happened to you being sure casso was scum a few pages back?

this felt manipulative, as in trying to get me off his partner and back into Casso. the phraseology of the last sentence is really off. like is it really so impossible to believe I'd wanna go for SAD first considering I've been scumreading SAD for a while now as opposed to Casso where I've done a shitton of waffling the whole game? the timing of this felt really icky. essentially "I'm going to townread him so he takes my side" then "wtf why isn't he taking my side".

[KoreanBBQ]

Pushing the guy who softclaimed vig when he cannot b a vig is a good of reason as any

Except it wasn't a vig claim.

I guess I'm having trouble telling if you are derpy town or scum making up random shit. I also don't care.

So GIF, are we killing this today or Norl or Bro or Sad?

[Ms Marangal]

Don't replace me.

[KoreanBBQ]

^
or that

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Pie, I think they are valid points and I think should be considered in the event of an Arthur scumflip. The one that bugged me was this one:

I find his "so what will you do if he flips scum" to be troubling because it is ignoring the fact that a scum lynch by itself is cause for celebration.

i think this mostly comes down to a different school of thought, and isn't necessarily anything to do with his alignment. the only valid concern here would be if tammy was right about him not caring much about information from lynches in any other games, but i haven't checked whether this is true (and i don't intend to any time soon)

No. We are lynching SSK today. If we have any remaining investigative roles we give them a night; SSK could be a scum PR; narrows the field for tomorrow though this one is probably not relevant. I see no compelling reason to do anything else.

this

This is weird. He doesn't know what school of thought Arthur has having never played with him. Yet he assumes that Tammy was wrong about him by default leaving her being right as a "valid concern" which he has no intention of checking. I am not sure if he would defend a buddy this way and this post actually made me slightly paranoid that I was accusing town-Arthur and scum-Muffin was defending him. But, everyone knows zMuffin is a busser so the one thing I'd expect him to do this game is

not

bus so I don't know. It could work either way. What are your thoughts?

[KoreanBBQ]

Pushing the guy who softclaimed vig when he cannot b a vig is a good of reason as any

Except it wasn't a vig claim.

I guess I'm having trouble telling if you are derpy town or scum making up random shit. I also don't care.

So GIF, are we killing this today or Norl or Bro or Sad?

I still think SSK goes today for the town moral boost.

[pieguyn]

that's a really good point. I don't see why he would default to questioning Tammy who obv has experience with SAD

from what I can tell, and from what fferycabd said in marketplace, his scumgames have varying levels of bussing in them. I've played with scum him twice (imperishable night, marketplace). in imperishable night there was a townie who was a 1-way lover with one of the scum (BRO) so they set up for an easy bus on BRO and that was it. marketplace was weird bc it was 2 scumteams of 3 people each. he was on a team with Nacho/Empire hydra and DoctorPepper. there was a discussion earlier about this and iirc he originally didn't wanna bus DoctorP, but Nacho ended up doing it anyway and once it was decided he was on DoctorP early. in both games that was the only member of his scumteam he bussed and he defended his other scumbuddy (Nacho/Empire in marketplace, Nacho/GIF in imperishable night). so I don't think he'd default to bussing and I could completely see him defending a buddy like that

[Ms Marangal]

Prohps scum-reads are... weird

IDK if he's trying to do some kinda thing where he tries to scum-read stronger townies to make himself look like a fearless townie.

He might be scum, with his team somewhere in the black!

[Ms Marangal]

Who did Titus replace?

[Yukari Yakumo]

You.

[geists]

Who did Titus replace?

ceph

[KoreanBBQ]

You.

OUT OF MY GAME YOU EVIL WOMAN

[Ms Marangal]

oh

fuck the world, I don't feel good about their slot at all :/

[Ms Marangal]

@ Gen: RE F-16, no, I don't agree with alot of the things he says and I think that there are alot of things that make me jump and want to call him scum because of how different from me he is. I think that's the main reason why I tunneled him so badly D1, and why I probably would still be doing if Nacho didn't talk me out of it which then forced me to re-read the stuff he wrote later on, which I then deemed to be not as bad as I originally thought it to be

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Gen: RE F-16, no, I don't agree with alot of the things he says and I think that there are alot of things that make me jump and want to call him scum because of how different from me he is.

This is so true. Everytime you post something, I find myself thinking "

she can't seriously believe that.

" I think I'd have a pretty hard time reading you in general. I town-read your scum hydra in Swagtown when everybody else including your buddies pushed you, and I scumread you here D1.

[zMuffinMan]

Is there anything outside of their read on you that you find scummy?

no, not really. a lot of the reason for my read there is coming from the way nacho approached their read on me and the way they've been responding to me - and this had a lot to do with him being scum with me in two other recent games (one of which was ongoing at the start of this game). i could point to other things here and there that pinged, but it's hard to call anything nachothor does scummy without it looking like i'm trying to fit the mold here. but nothing either casso head is doing is looking town to me, and i dunno why so many people are reading it as town.

What do you think of the way Nacho has gone about sorting other players for instance and how he has approached the game in general?

*shrug* it's stuff i could see coming from nacho as town or scum. like i said, i could point to things here and there that ping, but there's nothing i can call outright "scummy". you called his reads politically correct; that's sort of along the same lines i'm thinking. there's nothing that rocks the boat in there, and there's no... i dunno, flare? vigor? they're just reads he could be expected to have.

somewhat related, i have a (sorta tinfoil?) theory that nacho was pushing ssk D1 because they'd planned for ssk to claim doc to buy himself some time and if anyone later suggests that nacho isn't finding scum he can just point back to that and say he was right! a lot of people were giving nacho town cred for the way he dismantled the sakura hana wagon and moved to SSK, so there's also that, too. when i look at it like this, the way he was ready to push and trying to justify what was essentially a policy lynch close to the deadline makes a lot more sense.

This is weird. He doesn't know what school of thought Arthur has having never played with him.

i don't need to play with someone to have an understanding of their playstyle

Spoiler: @pieguy

ignored me a bit when I was questioning him about SAD

if you were asking me stuff that i ignored, it's prob because i didn't read it. fyi, not answering questions that are addressed to me is a town tell

this is kind of a tinfoil hat theory but I get the feeling he was coaching SAD in their QT as to how to handle my pressure on him

also, fyi, i

never

coach as scum. literally never. it goes against everything i believe about playing scum. the best advice any scum partner would ever get from me is "look town!"

1004 here he kind of starts trolling me a bit. this makes me think scum bc he said somewhere he likes trolling and manipulating people as scum

heh. trust me, if i were trying to manipulate you, i'd try a little harder than that. or maybe i'm trying to manipulate you here

the first paragraph and last sentence is smth he kept doing in marketplace where he basically kept saying that the way he was playing was undoubtedly his town game, and that there was no way this would be his scum game. one example from marketplace is 3715, last paragraph. everything he did in there was so that ffery/cabd would townread him when they did a metadive on him and then when I pushed on him here he came up with that paragraph and kept saying it was his town game. here he's doing a similar thing by comparing to marketplace. idk if it's actually alignment indicative and I don't know if he does this as town too but there's a bunch of parallels

*shrug* saying i wouldn't do X as scum or i'm obvtown and similar stuff is something i say regardless of alignment

what you seem to be misunderstanding here is the point of what i was saying. in marketplace, i was deliberately manipulating you because i wanted you to read me as town there. here i was pointing out that nacho's reasons for thinking i'm scum were a load of shit, and given how intimate he should be with my scum game, he should have known they were a load of shit.

I get that his read on casso was specific to nacho himself, but I was talking with him about how I didn't think SAD was legitimately trying to sort me and I'd expect he'd take kind of an interest in it considering it's the same general problem he was having with casso.

again, you're misunderstanding the actual problem i have with casso (or rather, nacho). i've never played with or read a game SAD was in before, and i suspect he's never read a game i was in before, either. i have no reference for how SAD would normally sort me, so all i can look at are his reasons and any inconsistencies in his read, and these are the things i questioned SAD about, and he answered my queries here. the issue with nacho is that the way he was sorting me didn't look like anything i'd expect from nacho-town, given his knowledge of my scum game.

also i did (and still do) think the way SAD was forming reads after replacing in looked town. you seem to be really hung up on how SAD wasn't sorting you properly; k. good for you. i'm seeing it differently

but the problem here is that there was absolutely no followup to this question. if he was legitimately noticing SAD flip flopping reads as town then he should be more interested in the fact that SAD did the same thing to me and I'd think he'd be way more skeptical. instead I gave my response 4407 and then there was no response to it.

i was expecting SAD to answer for himself before i chipped in my 0.02. how the fuck am i meant to know why he changed his read on you?

as for how he initially sorted you, i don't have an issue with it. i think SAD's playstyle is somewhat similar to mine; i tend to exaggerate cases based on my feelings about a player. when i say someone has done no scum hunting, what i actually mean is that all the scum hunting they're doing looks fake to me or isn't really scum hunting or is designed to look like they're doing something when they're really not, etc etc. this is what i think he was doing with you, and so him calling you out on doing no scum hunting doesn't look as bad to me as it seems to look to you.

second he still has a townread on SAD which I still don't get

what don't you get about it?

this is where he moved me up in his townpile and I don't think he ever gave a reason for it. note that this was right after my VCA wall where I accused casso of bussing SSK. I get the feeling he did this so that I'd take his side in the casso debate

actually my read on you becoming stronger had very little to do with the VCA you posted, although that was one of the things i was expecting you to do as town here. the fact that our thoughts on casso aligned here was just a bonus.

this felt manipulative, as in trying to get me off his partner and back into Casso. the phraseology of the last sentence is really off. like is it really so impossible to believe I'd wanna go for SAD first considering I've been scumreading SAD for a while now as opposed to Casso where I've done a shitton of waffling the whole game?

given your conviction about casso being scum like two pages prior or something (where you basically neglected to mention your SAD scum read was still strong as ever), i wanted to know why you'd seemingly changed your mind. *shrug*

you have this sick interpretation of everything i do being manipulative, but you don't seem to understand what i do when i'm really being manipulative. i don't manipulate by asking questions, i manipulate by making statements. like this one.

[Generically Purple]

I'm happy voting Titus today, I'm more than happy with the banked scum lynch in SSK today, and on an outside bet SAD has potential links to players I haven't got a strong lean on as muffinman has remained on the peripheral while I focused on others.

Titus seems keen to stick to this KBBQ point rather than admit she may have misinterpreted. I don't testify to the argument that it's a town mentality to tunnel because it's such a closed point and she is struggling to shed the suspicion on the slot ceph left that she could be looking to seem commited to scum hunting while not actually having to move beyond a single incident on day 1. Feels more like hiding from the more important events than a pro town action to me.

And SAD does seem to go quiet when there's no major focus on him. Could be a coincidence but I am not a fan of coincidences.

I also feel norlkaz warrants more scrutiny, once again now that someone else has taken main focus they have slipped back into the shadows.

Geists, you were the first to champion taking our time today and it has certainly seemed productive, what are your thoughts on lynch options for today.

[Generic]

I'm happy voting Titus today, I'm more than happy with the banked scum lynch in SSK today, and on an outside bet SAD has potential links to players I haven't got a strong lean on as muffinman has remained on the peripheral while I focused on others.

Titus seems keen to stick to this KBBQ point rather than admit she may have misinterpreted. I don't testify to the argument that it's a town mentality to tunnel because it's such a closed point and she is struggling to shed the suspicion on the slot ceph left that she could be looking to seem commited to scum hunting while not actually having to move beyond a single incident on day 1. Feels more like hiding from the more important events than a pro town action to me.

And SAD does seem to go quiet when there's no major focus on him. Could be a coincidence but I am not a fan of coincidences.

I also feel norlkaz warrants more scrutiny, once again now that someone else has taken main focus they have slipped back into the shadows.

Geists, you were the first to champion taking our time today and it has certainly seemed productive, what are your thoughts on lynch options for today.

Me again.

At least I'm logging in mara

[Generically Purple]

heh

Sure thing, Gen

SSK
Titus
Prophy
Pie
SAD

that, I feel like is the scum team

[Ms Marangal]

heh

Sure thing, Gen

SSK
Titus
Prophy
Pie
SAD

that, I feel like is the scum team

herpderp