NY 170: Georgetown II (Game Over)

[Zdenek]

Reading Slaandar over in ISO, my town read on him is cancelled.

[Zdenek]

Vote: Chevre

Still support this wagon. Didn't want a derphammer, but I don't want it to slip away either. Don't have time to do a full response to yessiree... let's just say that 'Could equally be town or scum' describes a player who's a good day one lynch.

I'd appreciate your unvote for the time being.

[yessiree]

After rereading through a bit I finally figured out that my opinions are based on crap...
Not sure what to make of the quick wagons as people just seem to be in the mood to lynch and its too early for me to really see how people play to make sure they aren't scum but just odd people...like Albert.
Also bump was gotten, was dealing with schoolwork.

what opinions of yours are you talking about, because I don't see any?

you claimed you voted Aegor as a RV, I viewed it as jumping on a low-hanging fruit. If it was to reaction test Aegor, I would have viewed as null. In 353 you tried to pass it off as a RV and unvoted seeing it's not gaining any momentum, that's scummy as hell.

For starters, opinion on emogirl? opinion on Chevre?

My opinions in my head? They're my opinions, I'm not sure what you mean by what opinions. If its because I haven't shared them then the answer would be along the lines of second guessing myself. I don't post something I'm not sure 100% unless there's a special circumstance.
My vote was both a test of reaction and RV due to me not really paying attention to what was going on. I wasn't serious after all. If you look at my reason it was bullshit and ungrounded in reality. The only way it could be considered serious is if I pointed out real evidence that pointed to me he was scum.
I have opinions of everyone but right now they aren't presentable in a list like yours
Like I said I keep them to myself unless I'm sure of them.
emogirl? Leaning town cause of her experience on that poker site. Sites I played in the past are much different then here.
And another reason is because of the wagon that came up around her just didn't smell right.
Chevre? I dunno, the wagon that came up around him was the fastest one I've ever seen, can't say scum did it for a fact because he wasn't really in danger. If he is scum then the wagon might have been made by the scum to let him gain trust or something...I can have really weird ideas...

My plan is to wait til next day unless something comes up because I have a really out there idea and it depends on who survives the night.

First, please realize that the intent of deliberately refusing to share thought process is scum-motivated. No one's reads are 100% accurate on day 1. Reads change, and become increasingly more solid over time, but only through the grinding and exchange of opinions with people who disagree with you.

Second, leaning town on emogirl because of her outside experiences and the Chevre counter-wagon? That's some bullshit basis for townreading her yo.

Third, regarding Chevre? explain? like I don't even

[Zdenek]

Tebow

, why do you think that 504 is a town post?

[Acidic_TACO]

@yessiree
My thought process is strange and makes little to no sense. I need to take time to refine them to make them understandable to others.
Also please note that in saying leaning I was saying, "Could be scum or town", but a little more on the town side.
The thing about Chevre was what happens when I just spit something out without making it understandable. All my reads are currently like that. To me it makes perfect sense but I doubt anyone else will get anything out of it.

[Zdenek]

Here is where I would like to lynch.

First of all, both Goodfather and Emeraldemon are playing like typical scum.

In Post 78 emerald starts off by playing the newb-card, and then moves on to setup-spec avoiding actual discussion of the game up to that point (it's true that the game had recently started, but there were relevant conversations from pre-game that he could have talked about). In post 247, he avoids taking strong stances on things, and buddies with OGML. Avoiding talking strong stances is typical throughout his ISO. He does it in 253 with "But that alone doesn't make her scum necessarily" and elsewhere by asking questions in place of taking stances. In post 470 he tries to spread suspicion around to several people: "I don't really see why Chevre is the scummiest vote on this wagon. Given that people have said most scummy things about the votes from albert on, maybe it's something about joining the wagon late? It does seem like maybe the unvote from Chevre is scummy, but I'd love to know why no one thinks e.g. Brian Skies was scummy. Or NS for that matter" while his vote is on Garmr.

Goodfather has a consistent habit of attacking people without voting them. In post 329 he attacks Chevre for jumping on the emogirl wagon and in post 432 he attacks Kaboom for having his vote on emogirl, all the while sticking with his random vote on Tebow. I should add that I think this is different from Garmr's attack on Aegor because of how direct Garmr's attack was, and as a result of that, I completely believe that Garmr did in fact mistake Aegor for TACO. In post 329
Goodfather's second paragraph is logical padding, no one will object to it, but is also devoid of content. The Goodfather previously expressed suspicion of Kaboom and Chevre, but in post 376 he votes Garmr for essentially nonsensical reasons - wasting people's time and ruining his image of Rick Astley. This makes no sense coming from town. He attempts to discredit yesiree based on the formatting of his post rather than on the content of the post. He also suggests that yesiree was being a tad aggressive - this is weak stance designed to cast suspicion on to yesiree.

I have some other suspicions. I'll get to writing them down in a bit. For now

Vote The Goodfather

[Slandaar]

Reading Slaandar over in ISO, my town read on him is cancelled.

[OhGodMyLife]

Slandaar is on my scum shortlist too

[OhGodMyLife]

Only moreso because he is clearly following along enough to pop in at the first negative mention with an appeal-to-emoticon but is otherwise almost completely absent, and absolutely avoiding the major issues with his vote parked uselessly on a nonstarter

[Sotty7]

Offtopic, your pic and ohgodmylife's look too similar, I keep confusing you two.

I never really gave that any thought before. We have both had these avatars for a long time. If it is that bad I can probably change mine for the game. I know how confusing that can be.

Garmr ignored my questions to him, so clearly my vote is ineffective where it sits.

So the big question is, why leave it there?

Zdenek's vote on Goodfather is pretty great. His push on Garmr back in post 566 seems like a terrible reason to keep his vote there and doesn't actually explain why he thinks anything Garmr says is wishy washy. His attacks feel safe and very pot shotty the point on his yessir criticism is very much on point. This is a considerable upgrade from Maenara.

[Zdenek]

Sotty, why are you town reading ABR?

[Aegor]

Post 580 is very good.

[Chevre]

Three parts, get over it, there will be an index at the end if you're too lazy to read it all.

Sorry this was much later than I said it would be. First I think I shall go page by page:

Page 1 - This page starts the emogirl123-kabooooom-Garmr altercation. I think the players here are on different wavelengths due to the unconfirmed gamestate; emogirl123 seems to be in that pregame perspective still while Garmr is starting off a bit more seriously. One thing I know I'm going to have issues with on this readthrough is emogirl's use of terminology and things. I don't know if it was how she was taught to play the game, but places where she claims she's "town-telling" just don't seem right to me. Anyway, right here it's "data-mine", which she uses in the context of her vote, and I think she means that she's looking for reactions.

Page 2 - Someone later mentions that these early interactions between emogirl123 and Garmr are "scum theatre". I don't see it.

However, I do think it's interesting how Garmr in his daykill post assumes that emogirl123 is new without her ever explicitly saying it in the thread

¹. Another interesting thing is that emogirl switches stance on kabooooom between 30, where she is defending against kabooooom's accusation, and 40, where she calls kabooooom a VI. However, kabooooom did not post between those two posts; only emogirl123 and Garmr did, so it's just an interesting switch of opinion. Also on this page emogirl123 uses the word "posturing", which I think of as I thing scum do (actual posturing, not the use of the word); they're positioning themselves to look down. Thus, emogirl123's reference to it sticks out to me because it is strangely blatant. Also, emogirl123's "meta" in 49 is a terrible example because she is linking her apparent "jumpy, joking style" to her alignment, and I don't think those two even correlate.

Page 3 - In 51 emogirl123 refers to the strategy of getting a wagon on herself for analysis, which I know I contend with in the future, but here she says she has changed her mind about that idea. I'm not sure how I feel about that, because she did end up getting a wagon on herself which she then claimed to be using for analysis. Maybe I'm biased by the future Maenara discussion that takes place but her opening post does seem uselessly brief. I don't really have issue with her vote on emogirl123 for being annoying because I think that's actually a good way to random-vote, but her description of Sotty 7 as "conciliatory" wants more explanation. The Goodfather's opening post, 67, is very vague just seems off. I know it's something I'm probably guilty of but that use of "interesting" places The Goodfather firmly on the fence.

Page 4 - Aegor's opening vote in 77 reads as town for me because emogirl123 had already done "lol I'm scum" jokes and I think scum would have read back and realized this was an issue of some contention before posting it. Bulbazak's opening vote on emeraldemon is very fishy given how emeraldemon had just claimed he was new and I don't completely understand what he said that could've been said in confirmation. It looks like an easy vote on an easy victim. Tebow echoes this vote, so same points to him as well. The Goodfather's 92 is like 67 in that it's just not very absolute, as though he's lying but he's very hesitant about it.

Page 5 - Aegor's unexplained vote on Garmr is weird. Most of the rest of this page was setup discussion, which yeah I do think it was good to get as much clarification as possible from the mod but it's now not useful until at least Day 2.

Page 6 - Aegor explains his vote on Garmr in 129 but the reasoning doesn't really fit the evidence, as he claims the posts relating to Garmr's daykill gambit are emotional. Then, he chides Garmr for expecting reasoning despite him just giving reasoning in the same post. I kind of understand emogirl123's defense of Garmr more now because Bulbazak is voting Garmr due specifically to emogirl123's earlier post. I disagree with Sotty7's point about setup discussion being a way for people to look as though they are doing stuff; I think rather it's legitimate curiosity at the unknown status of the setup.

Page 7 - I'm not making emogirl123's connection between "Garmr doesn't know it's mountainous; therefore, Garmr is town."

Page 8 - Nobody Special's emogirl123 vote is reasonless. Bulbazak's vote has reasoning though. Maestro's use of Garmr's "last visited" time irks me because I think introducing things like that is a pretty sleazy way to stir up suspicion of someone and wasn't "Users reading this topic" removed specifically for this reason? I don't know how I feel about Garmr's emogirl123 vote, not as reasoned as Bulbazak's I guess but better than Nobody Special's. I suppose that, whatever Garmr's alignment, emogirl123 has placed him in a tricky situation.

Page 9 - Brian Skies' emogirl123 vote is reasonless, as is Slandaar's vote on The Goodfather, which is even less useful because it's in the midst of discussion on emogirl which is probably when we most need a reason to refocus our attention. Albert B. Rampage's vote is reasonless. Like I mean I get people have already made the case on emogirl, but I want some sort of ascertaining about which points were particularly convincing.

Page 10 - I don't like emogirl123's 228 because it looks like she's just pointing out Maestro's inability to read Bulbazak as what makes him scum, when it's even implied that Maestro is just surprised he can't read Bulbazak as well as he thought he could. Maenara's vote on emogirl123 reads really poorly and makes me realize how poor my own vote was. Like sure, her high post rate is definitely something annoying about emogirl123, but it isn't a good reason to vote someone. I do still think that the information from her lynch would be useful though. I do think Maenara's honesty is genuine though. I see in addition to their similar avatars OhGodMyLife and Sotty7 have similar ideas about setup speculation, which I disagree with. I also want to point out that at this point OhGodMyLife is already criticizing the emogirl123 wagon before I join it, so it's not like I joined it when it was scot-free, started getting criticized, and then unvoted.

Page 11 - Tebow's rebuttal to Bulbazak and the "actual case" argument seems to disregard emogirl123's penchant for misuse of words, but in the end I think that makes Bulbazak's case just as null. I think Garmr's second point after asking "what's my scum motive" (which is a strange question in itself) is weird because it assumes that scum can't make mistakes or admit to them. I think it's interesting that OhGodMyLife requests Maenara's meta on policy lynches, she provides it, and then OhGodMyLife's next post is simply "I would support a Maenara lynch". Ideologically I disagree with emogirl123's 263 because I always think about and scrutinize what I want to say regardless of alignment.

Page 12 - Aegor's vote on ABR is reasonless. Slandaar recalls his own reasonless vote on Goodfather. These reasonless votes perplex me. Maybe that's why my unvote received so much criticism, I just feel like I need to explain why I am doing something so that people can clearly see my intentions. To me, it's not "overexplaining." I know he catches up later but Slandaar's early posts are generally unhelpful.

[Chevre]

Page 13 - emogirl's use of the word "anti-town" as not meaning "scummy" was addressed before I even said it so I'm not sure why it was an issue? I'll have to see when I reach it. Looking at my vote, it certainly wasn't verbose but at least I gave some sort of background as to why. I still don't get emogirl123's town-telling spiel; I think town should be town and not try to look town. If you get a wagon on yourself, great, analyze it, but if you are trying to get a wagon on yourself you are flirting with disaster and I think that isn't a very appropriate approach. It's weird seeing people like NS and ABR so firmly certain about emogirl123's scumminess now that they've swooped on over to my wagon. At the end of this page emogirl uses the term "actual case" again in reference to herself, but I think it more shows her looseness with words and that Bulbazak's initial point holds very little credibility.

Page 14 - kabooooom's vote on emogirl is reasonless.

Page 15 - emogirl123's refusal to discuss her reads at L-1 is pretty anti-town. Really much of her posts on this page and the last are. They're quite whiny and appealing for pity. It's not really scummy per se but anti-town and distracting, I think.

Page 16 - The Goodfather's response to Garmr's rickroll is super weird. Like I know I acknowledged it as annoying but he gets truly all fed up and votes Garmr for it. I realize that now I said "not very town" instead of "anti-town" in my unvote, so that probably explains the confusion. I'll explain this later when I address everyone individually but I still do think emogirl's play in this game is way off base of anything and it's general unreadability is giving me fits. But yeah, the idea that I unvoted once the heat started turning up on members of the emogirl wagon is false. There was criticism about that wagon before I even placed my vote, and the people who were criticizing it during the duration of my vote were the same people who had been doing it before. I feel like the "momentum" of my wagon gave Garmr an opportunity to jump from emogirl to me.

Page 18 - Aegor's vote is reasonless AGAIN, this time on me. Tebow maligns my words and assumes that since my reason was defend-able, I had wanted to get off that wagon the whole time and was thus waiting for a reason, when that isn't the truth.

Page 19 - Bulbazak seems to disregard his altercation with Tebow as an attack when really they were back-and-forthing for pages? I'm going to remain on my "soapbox" and say that I have trouble trusting the methodology of someone (in this case, Sotty7 in 461) who is voting me when I know that is not a vote on scum. She also assumed that emogirl's "trying to look town" and what I was doing after unvoting were the same thing. In all truth, I was really confused and unsure what to do with the wagon that was building on me. I think in some mindsets that's a scummy approach, but that's how I played it. NS's vote is reasonless, plus, as Tebow acknowledges, pretty much a flip-flop. And then--I forgot how much this angered me when I first read it, why-me-fry-me all you want--but NS defends himself by saying he is coasting and that he'd rather have flips to work with, which I feel is essentially the same mindset I have! But no, I get told to step off a soapbox. In 474 Brian Skies grants OGML a townread in part for recognizing his own jump to the emogirl wagon. Which I think is really weird given that IIRC OGML did not specify Brian Skies as one of the "lazy easy votes".

Page 20 - ABR gives a reason I suppose but it's a pretty terrible one, especially when he could be incriminated in pretty much the same way as I have been, minus the scrutiny for my unvote. yessirree should probably never do that format again for a read summary, the spoilers are annoying and there isn't a conclusive read on everyone. Like you can assume that when someone has a bunch of "TownReads" from him they're a town read, but at times it feels like he's purposefully leaving it out in the open for later. OGML's dislike of Bulbazak's perfectly legitimate question bugged me.

Page 21 - ABR says I'm a good lynch simply because I've been run up so far in a mountainous, without really detailing any further why I'm scummy. Plus it totally bypasses the fact that emogirl was at L-1 too, just because I'm the second person to achieve that feat I should be lynched?

Page 22 - I despise Tebow's 525. A lynch will give us an alignment which will let us see how other players treated the lynched player, thus there is more evidence. Also your argument that wagoning emogirl to get attention off emogirl is faulty, because wagons lead to lynches and then she won't be such a topic of discussion. Speaking of which, I feel as though since the heat has fallen off her she has posted less. Further, if two people have the same feeling about something there must be something acknowledgeable about it. Plus, the call out on "giving up" is just so so terrible. I truly do think Day 1 is a wash and nothing is convincing me otherwise. Thus I think a flip would be a solid piece of INFORMATION which is mod-guaranteed to be true. Plus what do you do with all of emogirl's "oh you're gonna regret this tomorrow when I flip! better pay attention to my reads!" Finally, I hate the accusation that I'm playing horribly, when essentially you're just lynching me because I'm "scummy enough". It just is so, so awful. I don't know specifically what emogirl is waiting on from me, I just said I was going to give reads. It sounds like whatever I post is not going to be enough and she's just going to keep her vote on me with that mentality.

Page 23 - Zdenek: a lynch on emogirl, on anyone really, would give town a player whose alignment is confirmed, plus whatever happens during the night. Then they can look at the relationships those players had with the living players and draw out connections. If there are dead scum you could look for buddies, obviously; if there are town it's a little more difficult as you have to A) look for people who were suspicious of them but also B) suss out who is just misguided town as opposed to opportunistic scum. I guess you could argue that flips are going to result anyway due to Mafia kills, but I just think that later days differ from Day 1 because they do have this extra layer of information, and that's why I keep insisting I'm so confused today.

Page 24 - I agree with Zdenek's reads on emeraldemon (especially given his switch from not quite understanding my wagon to agreeing with it) and The Goodfather. Also agree with OGML's opinion on Slandaar. I just haven't felt there has been any real contribution.

[Chevre]

Player Reads, from Towniest to Scummiest (also serves as an index)
Maestro (8, 10) - Just seems like town with the right amount of confidence.
Zdenek / Maenara (3, 10, 11, 23, 24) - I really like the analyses on emeraldemon and The Goodfather.
yessiree / WBOcampfire1104 (20) - yessiree's thoughts since replacing in seem genuine and reasonable.
Sotty7 (6, 10, 19) - Despite being in regular disagreeance with him, I feel like his posts are town-motivated.
Bulbazak (4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 19, 20) - I think he was legitimately trying with emogirl but the "actual case" idea was moreso due to her poor wordage than anything else I think. The arguments were good otherwise though.

Aegor (4, 5, 6, 12, 18) - He never gives reason to his votes until asked to do so but I think that is more playstyle than anything. Still, I think his reasoning for Garmr wasn't so great.
OhGodMyLife (10, 11, 19, 20, 24) - While his thoughts are often similar to Sotty7's I think he is a bit more curt in them which makes his posts feel less town.
emogirl123 (1-4, 6-11, 13-16, 19, 21-23) - Ugh...I feel like the way she plays is so unconventional that it's impossible to read. Not only is her terminology different but her gameplay is such that I can't really make heads or tails of anything. I imagine my initial vote was frustration. Problem is, I see leaving someone like this in the game dangerous for town but since it is mountainous there isn't really anyway to remove her.
Tebow (4, 11, 18, 19, 22) - I really have mixed feelings because I feel like he's really misguided town to such an extent that it's scummy.
Brian Skies (9, 19) - Weirdly under-the-radar, but he has at least tried to catch up which differs him from others.
emeraldemon (4, 24) - I agree with what Zdenek said except the newb card, because that's the thing that really makes me hesitate.
Acidic_TACO - I never once referenced him in my writeup, which is kind of alarming. What I remember of his posts is that they seemed really inconsequential up until recently.
kaboooom (1, 2, 14) - kabooooom is probably the truest enigma for me. I just have like 0 idea.
Garmr (1, 2, 5-8, 11, 16) - Something is off about Garmr I feel, but not enough to be a full scumread. I still think it may just be association with the emogirl fiasco.
The Goodfather (3, 4, 9, 12, 16, 24) - A lot of emotional reaction and fence-sitting, it just doesn't feel like good town play. I originally had him in the scum section, but I feel like now it might just be bad play.

Albert B. Rampage (9, 12, 13, 20, 21) - He is apathetic about the game and his votes are reasonless, yet potentially integral in lynches.
Nobody Special (8, 13, 19) - See Albert B. Rampage.
Slandaar (9, 12, 24) - It's not really because of the multiball discussion, obvioiusly; I have no problem with that, it just feels outside of that he's done relatively nothing. I'm interested to see what his "investigations" are.

Vote: Slandaar

Footnotes?
¹ I struck this passage because Garmr clarifies in Post 55 that he had looked elsewhere, but I wanted to keep it in the text so that people could see my thought process.

[Acidic_TACO]

I feel left out of your writings ;_;

[emogirl123]

UNVOTE: I want to read current developments before committing.

[The Fonz]

Tebow

, why do you think that 504 is a town post?

It embodies the 'Damn the torpedoes' kind of attitude that I expect from town ABR. He's not responding to being accused of baselessly wagoning by coming up with some convoluted post-hoc rationalization that raises the question of why he didn't say it in the first place - he's just like "Yeah, it's day one, he's scummy enough, and we can't piss about forever." Someone's probably going to try to paint that as scummy, but it doesn't seem like ABR cares that much. Town.

Page 22 - I despise Tebow's 525. A lynch will give us an alignment which will let us see how other players treated the lynched player, thus there is more evidence. Also your argument that wagoning emogirl to get attention off emogirl is faulty, because wagons lead to lynches and then she won't be such a topic of discussion. Speaking of which, I feel as though since the heat has fallen off her she has posted less. Further, if two people have the same feeling about something there must be something acknowledgeable about it. Plus, the call out on "giving up" is just so so terrible. I truly do think Day 1 is a wash and nothing is convincing me otherwise. Thus I think a flip would be a solid piece of INFORMATION which is mod-guaranteed to be true.

Just FYI, I really, really hate this kind of reasoning too, likely far more than you 'despise' mine. Again, ANY flip is a solid piece of information that is mod-guaranteed to be true. Plus if day one is a crapshoot, why are you now making this super detailed post-by-post account of the whole game? Alternatively, if this kind of very wordy analysis is pro-town, why weren't you doing it earlier?

Page 18 - Aegor's vote is reasonless AGAIN, this time on me. Tebow maligns my words and assumes that since my reason was defend-able, I had wanted to get off that wagon the whole time and was thus waiting for a reason, when that isn't the truth.

No, you're misrepresenting me. Firstly, you say 'that's not the truth.' Well one, even if you're correct, I'm not fucking psychic. Secondly, that's not what I said. I'm not

assuming

that because your reason was defensible, you must be scum. That's perverse. What I'm saying is that we wouldn't expect remotely competent scum to act in an utterly transparent manner. Therefore, just because there

is[/b] a plausible town motive, that doesn't prove that the act was definitely town-motivated, because any decent scum would be trying to portray their action as town-motivated: there's also a plausible scum motive, to try to get the heat you were feeling off of you. Note also that when called out on your unvote, you immediately pulled out the 'Well I could have unvoted earlier and didn't' card, which tells me that you are well aware that unvoting without some kind of excuse would have looked even scummier.

And you didn't even go 'She did these things that are unlikely to come from scum, therefore she's probably town.' You went 'She's still kinda scummy, but because of these things, I'm going to unvote.' That totally keeps your options open to return to emogirl later on. That does not say 'town motive' to me.

[The Fonz]

God damn altslip.

Mod, since it's kinda pointless now, can I replace my own alt?

[Slandaar]

Slandaar is on my scum shortlist too

and absolutely avoiding the major issues with his vote parked uselessly on a nonstarter

Why is he a non-starter?

it just feels outside of that he's done relatively nothing

3 walls; conclusion; 'lets lynch a lurker'.



also; Poor Fonzy.

[The Fonz]

I've not even used my main in ages... turns out seven years of logging onto the same account creates a habit. Didn't even notice the different color scheme...

[Huntress]

Mod, since it's kinda pointless now, can I replace my own alt?

Yes, that's fine with me. :)

[Acidic_TACO]

Wait what? Who's the Fonz's alt?

[Slandaar]

Iunno but maybe, if you read his post, you can work it out.

[Huntress]

bump