Touhou UPick 2 - [Game Over]

[Kagami]

I'm a miller.

VOTE: GiF

[Kagami]

prob not multiball, since my role specifically says that investigate as mafia (with no additional modifiers)

[Kagami]

Miller claims bug me.
Doesn't that still not rule out the possibility of an SK?

Doesn't rule that out, but I don't consider that multiball~

[Kagami]

Unvote

Vote: Varsoon

Unvote

Teehee~

(Also, this gives vezok no excuse to not post in the thread)

Seriously don't think he was telling the truth?

[Kagami]

I am a miller, and to cops. I'm told specifically that I investigate as mafia (so not miller in some broader sense).

It's been 5 minutes or so, who is questioning them in that time?

[Kagami]

My flavor will be outed before the end of the day regardless, but I'd rather it be a surprise~

[Kagami]

Tallying claims/whatnot-

Feirei- Locks a vote on him

Varsoon- Locks a vote on him

Kagami- Miller

Muffin- Bad shit happens if targetted at night

GIF- knows everyones flavor

vezok: IC

[Kagami]

Why is noone questioning feirei and varsoons similar claims

My theory is that they aren't similar claims, but that feirei copies or swaps abilities in some way. Waiting for a VC to find out.

[Kagami]

UNVOTE:

[Kagami]

GiF is the only person who's claimed anything that didn't require claiming, except vezok, whose IC claim was prob triggered by the RVS vote a la Frozen.

[Kagami]

Flavor-alignment combo is random, Giffy

[Kagami]

There seems to be differences here. Varsoon has claimed one vote sticks to him, while feirei claims all votes do. The former is similar to hated, the latter is much more surprising...

[Kagami]

Why didn't you immediately claim the vote sticking thing like varsoon did, Feirei?

[Kagami]

He's being awfully open about it if he's scum.

[Kagami]

Varsoon, why isn't feirei's vote stuck on you?

p-edit: well, that answers it

[Kagami]

If you're not suika, your avatar would be sad

[Kagami]

full massclaim doesn't seem ideal. I don't know about everyone else, but my abilities are more useful if they're a surprise.

[Kagami]

You're both wrong, best char might be useless, but at least she has sex appeal.

[Kagami]

I also don't buy into the varsoon-town yet

ns is town.

[Kagami]

Did scum have daychat last time around?

[Kagami]

you should have waited 30s on that, sakura.

[Kagami]

O, then I'll help out. I'm basically 95% sure you are correct. Varsoon is scum.

[Kagami]

I want to know what we're doing with varsoon. If I vote him I get stuck.

I'm basically certain he's scum, but now that sakura has done her thing, I imagine people will want to wait for tomorrow. =\

[Kagami]

There is a frozen flavor related to the sticking, and apparently feirei is immune to it since he too is freezy.

[Kagami]

VOTE: Varsoon

[Kagami]

o.O

What if I did trust that?

[Kagami]

Maybe I just trust you too much, Soony~

[Kagami]

I also don't buy into the varsoon-town yet

Was it the food-tell?
'cus sometimes a brotha is just hungry.


@Bork: I want to know why you don't like things.
It's easy to cross one's arms, but I wanna hear some elaboration.

Why did you phrase this "Was it the food-tell?"

This is right after what looked a lot like a daycop (and fakeclaims are forbidden).

[Kagami]

kagami,

varsoon sorts itself out if gif is telling the truth about the spellcard he just used

who else do you think is scum?

Yep.

I can't imagine that GIF is faking the spellcard, or that it does something that isn't protective. Only thing I find surprising is that he's not Yukari.

I don't have any especially strong alternative scumreads. I was thinking feirei as scum early on, which hasn't really faded, but the ability seems rather harsh to give to scum, and I think scum feirei would have been very motivated to claim immediately. If varsoon is scum, I was thinking ns town for being the first to doubt his towniness. I'm unsure about bork and RB. I think you're town; feels like titan muffin.

[Kagami]

Are you a double-voter for the whole game?

[Kagami]

Are you a double-voter for the whole game?

hi
why does this zmuffin feel like titan zmuffin?

I don't have full confidence in that read. He's not giving you the obvtown credit you deserve.

Re GIF's card: I originally read this as a forced commute or the like, and would be very surprised if it isn't. I have a targeted spellcard as well, and in my PM it doesn't say that I have to bold the target and I don't see it in the rules that the target must be bolded, so I'm not sure where all that is coming from.
If he is indeed lying about the effect, then we'll know tomorrow, and he'll have outed himself as scum. The suspicion seems unwarranted.

I am concerned about the possibility of lynching a double-voter who, if town, would have to be NKed sooner or later. Given sakura is almost certainly town, to lynch him would require 8 of 13 vote-bearing players, among which are 3 or 4 scum. That would be crazy difficult to pull off without scum assistance, which they'd probably only be willing to give if he's town. I don't find his behavior especially scum-motivated either.

[Kagami]

I...

Okay so sakura checked alignment for varsoon, why? Thought you were going to do it on kagami. What shifted you to use it on varsoon?
...

what?

[Kagami]

I'm a miller, investigating me would be profoundly bad play.

[Kagami]

Speaking of sakura: What is the wording of your votelessness? Surprisingly, I might be able to influence that.

[Kagami]

Double voter full game. If i hammer, i get triple vote next day. if i hammer, i get quad vote next day. if i hammer, get infinity vote but then i die once that day ends.

O.O

[Kagami]

He's not giving you the obvtown credit you deserve.

why do you think pieguy is obvtown?

Her reads feel very genuine to me, and somewhat high-energy.

As a more specific point, I find her narrative on me unlikely to come from scum. She opens with "kagami is exactly the kind of person to miller gambit," which flows into questioning the varsoon read, but then we get "I think kagami is town." The switch there seems very much against the path of least resistance, and represents a town mindset to me.

Was townreading her then too. I didn't mention sakura either, who is also obvtown to me.

[Kagami]

gif definitely knows my flavor.

[Kagami]

I've started reading through the other touhou game in which she's scum, but I haven't played with scum-pie, no.

Imo, the scum path of least resistance is more often that of self-consistency rather than sheeping others. Reversing reads for no obvious reason is not a common scum tactic, whereas defying the reads of the town is.

Her read on you seems also like a very natural paranoia, which I'm feeling myself.

Only one thing has pinged me in an anti-pie kind of way, but we'll see how that plays out. I have pie in my town-group.

[Kagami]

is pie a he?

[Kagami]

I thought it was penguin or so

boo!

mething like that.

whatever. What do you think about bork?

[Kagami]

btw, don't be too surprised, it's pro-town utility. Will likely do absolutely nothing if you are town.

[Kagami]

When do you think millers should claim, TNE?

[Kagami]

When do you think millers should claim, TNE?

I actually don't care when millers claim.

All I'm saying that is I don't believe any miller claims unless proven so

Imo, hateds, PGOs, and millers should claim immediately, which is exactly what happened.

Millers are even common enough that they should claim as soon as is feasible, since a fake-claiming miller has a very good chance of being CC'd, so that's how I did it and plan to continue doing it any future games in which I get miller.

[Kagami]

Sakura, re: voting.

Is it that you can't place a vote, or that your vote counts as 0 votes?

[Kagami]

alright, prob can't assist there, then.

[Kagami]

Or to make up for my lack of one

That seems more like RB's job. Multivote on different players is actually a kind of terrible ability, though it hard-counters any protective aspect of varsoon's role.

[Kagami]

I'm still trying to digest the implications of RB's role.

If we were to imagine it's a scum role, it could easily be used to dominate days 3 and 4. He could have just pretended that it's only ever a double vote that has to hammer, then surprise quad hammer on day 3, followed by a super hammer day 4.

Basically makes it almost certain town to me (especially given that he full-claimed it freely), unless we think FG would allow such shenanigans.

[Kagami]

I don't fully agree with TNE, Gaiden, bork up top.

I remain unsure on muffin, but I might be able to get a better read soonish (you may already be able to guess how, though that's going to be a surprise for later).

My guess is knockout in three steps.

[Kagami]

^this is true.

[Kagami]

we need saki in here to make Gaiden look good.

[Kagami]

You don't have to resent yourself.

I'd be surprised if you're the night 1 kill. It's already been revealed that there's at least one player in the game more dangerous to the scumteam than a mere IC.

[Kagami]

My character is Japanese.

[Kagami]

My character claim will be obvious, two players know exactly what it is (GIF and muffin), and I've softed it a million times anyway (mostly so that muffin isn't too surprised)

[Kagami]

Questioning the miller aspect makes sense, imo. I wouldn't expect her to be one, either, which is oddly fitting.

[Kagami]

probably not? There's a strong chance I'll use a daycard anyway, and flavor barely matters. Who would guess the miracle mallet is an investigate or that aya has something protective?

[Kagami]

that was @sakura, didn't show me a preview

[Kagami]

You're being unusually sensible, varsoon.

[Kagami]

Why did you reveal all this? FG said nothing that foils your plan, from what I can tell.

I asked privately about it using one of my own cards with identical formatting. FG had essentially told me that the format was fine for a targeted card, though bolding the target would be better. So your plan was mod-confirmed valid. Didn't you check this with him yourself, first?

[Kagami]

he didn't, he was referring to 603. Not sure how tne missed that.

[Kagami]

I guess it doesn't matter. Sakura still has a dec chance of being protected, and at least this way she won't go unprotected because an actual protector thought she was already covered.

p-edit: there's always good reason to openly doubt fake-claims. Gambits are generally anti-town, and there are significant negative externalities associated with letting them go.

[Kagami]

And by extension, I disagree with lynching (Hana, Bitmap) today.

I also have a theory that Sakura's role works like an inverse of Dake's role from last game- She uses an abiity then loses a vote for a day

^yep. Thought this was pretty obv given flavor.

I really can't get behind a GIF lynch. Unless I'm completely misinterpreting our recent conversation and how it squares with something a little bird told me, GIF is town or at least provably so.

[Kagami]

Btw ns: If you are not town here, I will actually be angry.

[Kagami]

"THIS ISNT TOWN NS"

I thought that was hilarious

[Kagami]

There goes RB's triple vote tomorrow.

I don't see sakura being scum and even if she were, she shouldn't be lynched. Her ability clearly is an alignment investigation, which only makes sense for scum if there's an SK, but in that case, as well as the much more likely case that she's town, she is certain to be NKed sooner or later.

[Kagami]

I'm only not-townreading bitmap, bork, and feirei right now, excluding those who we'll have additional knowledge about tomorrow.

[Kagami]

I'm only not-townreading bitmap, bork, and feirei right now, excluding those who we'll have additional knowledge about tomorrow.

Hi Kagami,

Talk to me about some of your reads:

me (your 'not-townreading' read on me is incorrect)

muffin (mostly a tonal/gut thing but I'm not townreading him and #477 doesn't really make it very clear that you are, either)
RB (hard to tell if you're townreading him or not I guess? Is he one of the 'additional knowledge' people? Because otherwise you've barely mentioned him)
gaiden (townread? why?)
Varsoon (having trouble following your progression on Varsoon; is #580 a town endorsement?)

Let's start there I guess.

Muffin is in the more information tomorrow pile. Right now we have a super-special relationship. I'm not as suspicious of him as I was back then regardless. /lick muffin

RB, I was pretty clear on this, I thought. It would be very surprising to me if scum were given a role that could easily dominate the day 3 AND day 4 lynch. If there are extra kills in the setup, he might even be able to setup an autowin for scum. Given this, and given daychat (so it's not just derp scum that doesn't realize all this), why would he be so open about the vote-accumulation power? On top of that, he just threw it away by getting his double-vote stuck on feirei. Lastly, he's a huge liability to the scumteam even as a mere double-voter; if people weren't continuing to paint him as a good lynch, he would be cleared/scum-confirmed simply by whether or not he lives to later days.

Gaiden doesn't seem like land of fantasy gaiden. Say what you will about the sakura vote sheeping thing, but sheeping sakura is not a crazy thing to do, since I really can't imagine her being scum, and probably a lot more helpful than whatever else gaiden would be doing. Does this really seem like a scum-tactic?

Varsoon is obv in the latter pile. Until just a little after sakura's card, he hadn't behaved in a specific way that I know town-varsoon to do, and he had made some pretty questionable comments on top of that. His play this game is undeniably unique compared to prior varsoon games, but whatever. We'll know tomorrow so I don't really care about this. Yes, I realize I'm still voting him, but I don't have an actual alternative scumread, just non-townreads.

In tales, I thought DB was so obv-town it was silly pretty early on (before we knew you were the vig). I haven't gotten that same feeling, or really any especially pro-town feeling from your play. GIF looks to have a townread on you for flavor/flavorspec reasons, so I've been trying to work out what that is.

[Kagami]

I wasn't going to vote RB, and I'm certainly not voting feirei without town agreement, so my vote location didn't seem relevant. But sure:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bitmap

[Kagami]

GIF looks to have a townread on you for flavor/flavorspec reasons, so I've been trying to work out what that is.

A specific person, if in the game, is 100% scum, according to my role-PM. I was trying to figure out whether or not that person is in the game.

That's pretty compelling...

[Kagami]

I actually wanted to ask that: does FG put in roles that are specifically designed to thwart role/flavor based alignment judgments? (i.e. rubbish like mafia doctor without vig/SK)

[Kagami]

mafia doctor

Honestly, on a bastard level of 1-10 that ranks about a 2 for me.

Cabd does it
I do it
I haven't seen FakeGod do it but the only completed game of his I've been in is Frozen which didn't have anything super crazy, just neighbors out the ass

Cabd does 8s, imo.

[Kagami]

And I'm of a few minds on the mechanic.

1) If GIF is scum, he's probably going to lie to me about it in combination with scum possibly has a pool of unused characters that they can try to dodge the mechanic with
2) If GIF is town, it's possible that he's been given faulty information about it, cause if that person were in the game and GIF has all the info it's the easiest scum lynch ever.
3) It's incredibly likely that FakeGod put it in to fuck with me.

1 seems pretty unlikely to me. The player would have to have no usable daycards, and GIF would have to know that you know this flavor to be scum.

@GIF: is there any reason to believe someone might be a flavor-cop godfather to your ability?

[Kagami]

pretty sure ns is town.

[Kagami]

At this point it's hard for me to imagine bork being scum without either GIF or muffin being scum as well, and I don't want to lynch either of those two.

[Kagami]

I thought jaqen was going to make it to endgame.

[Kagami]

Why would you think that given the spell card you just wasted?

[Kagami]

o nvm, misread it. Though it made the leading wagon unvote.

[Kagami]

GIF, is it possible for your power to be used to achieve two lynches?

[Kagami]

...
in her scumgame I skimmed there was an obvious feeling of her trying to blend in better by ditching her usual theory/flavor spec and using a more traditional approach for her "scumhunting".
...

I'm town this game, but judging my scumgame by the EB0 game is prob not a good idea. I think TIP and I could have won that game without posting if it were permitted.

ns was lynched largely on the argument "this is not how town ns plays." The game was silly.

[Kagami]

At this point it's hard for me to imagine bork being scum without either GIF or muffin being scum as well, and I don't want to lynch either of those two.

Why would I have to be scum w/ muffin if I were scum?

Kagami I don't recall you answering this. I want to know what part of your townread on me falls apart if muffin or GIF turn out to be scum.

Especially muffin - I'm really puzzled at how you're getting any kind of scum-scum vibe off of our interactions so far.

Not from in-thread interactions or anything like that, and this situation seems pretty unlikely to me regardless.

It's that for scum-bork to put together this "flavor tells me X is scum if in the game" thing, he would have to think someone would find that convincing, and that someone would lampshade it. Most players, for whatever reason, tend to ignore these setup-spec based town-tells, but you could be pretty certain that I, in particular, would care. Such a strategy seemed to me like something that would most likely occur with players who know me better, like muffin or GIF. GIF especially, who just came from a game where cabd similarly played his hydra in a specific way to get a town-read off me.

Anyway, I don't think that's the case, and I was prob just overthinking the situation.

[Kagami]

...

* the only possibility i could think of here is if fakegod is being trolly and ambiguous with the wording in a way that isn't technically bastard. i know fakegod likes being a bit trolly (and my role this game, for example, could be called kinda trolly)

...

Well, my role is almost overtly for trolling, as you've probably already noticed.

[Kagami]

Ugh, apparently a laidback, call-it-as-it-comes, no fervor approach does not work for me.
I keep getting scum-read for doing nothing, when the things I do just lack the gravity, noise, and broad strokes that they did in previous games of mine.

Really? I consider this a significant improvement to both transparency and usefulness. If you were playing in your more silly style, I wouldn't put as much stock in your feirei-slot read.

Muffin, have you still only received one PM?

[Kagami]

Game-state:

Vezok is an IC.
Sakura has used an ability that she claims is a delayed daycop (she gets result tomorrow) on Varsoon.
GIF is Aya, and knows all of our flavors. GIF can also vote for multiple players at once.
GIF has claimed to protect Sakura with a spellcard: 230
GIF has claimed that this was a gambit, and it's actually a selfprotect: 629
RB has claimed a double-voter whose vote builds up until he becomes a suicide king: 390
I have claimed to have some enacted a relationship of some sort with muffin. Muffin is aware that this has happened.

The rest is soft data from posts. I recommend starting with a GIF iso, and looking at when and why he unvotes a player. I agree with most of his reasoning so far.

[Kagami]

innocent child (mod-confirmed town)

[Kagami]

...

@Kagami

- Why vote Varsoon (219) when there's a delayed cop on him and he had already told you his vote would lock?
...

I was confident he was scum at the time, and I had no better place to put my vote. My vote wouldn't and didn't lock because Varsoon's vote freezing is one-shot (per day), unlike Feirei's.

[Kagami]

unlike yours, I guess.

[Kagami]

UNVOTE:

Bitmap claim means scum has to prevent him from getting two investigations, and is thus a terrible lynch even without the 1-shot cop spellcard.

Assuming they don't, he should not test his sanity on someone who will be a known result (varsoon, vezok, myself). With two results, being able to identify two players as same or different alignment is far more valuable that having a single known alignment. If he somehow gets three results (though I'd be very suspicious of his alignment at that point), his sanity will be obvious anyway.

[Kagami]

I'm town muffin, and in case FG didn't tell you, that special something we had is gone forever ;_;

@Sakura: varsoon?

@GIF: It's time to say what you did yesterday~

[Kagami]

o, didn't see it

[Kagami]

The lack of chemistry was of such great extent, in fact, that absolutely nothing came of it :<

[Kagami]

At some point, but my powers are basically 100% useless if they're known.

[Kagami]

(but I gotta say I've about had my fill of no role flip games)

I can tell you that pieguy was "Queen of all Trades" if that helps.

So is your role entirely redundant with gaiden's?

[Kagami]

makes sense.

Were you telling the truth about your spellcards yesterday?

[Kagami]

FG had told me that if I declared an un-targeted spellcard in the manner that you claim to have done in 230, he would have publicly asked me to reformat it.

[Kagami]

My role name is "Specific Jack of All Trades," and is completely misleading as to what I do.

[Kagami]

I can cause someone to get a PM from FG saying that something has happened to them. It will be very obvious that I am the one who caused this.

That state is related to my flavor. My role is somewhat trolly and has various aspects that can allow me to get a better read on a person (not strictly the one I target, but always related to that person), but I won't get hard info like a cop can. FG has essentially made it so that my powers have to be a surprise or they can be easily played around.

[Kagami]

I found that funny too, otherwise I'd have asked gaiden to rolecop me (which would prove me innocent if I had the Miller role)

[Kagami]

no?

[Kagami]

GIF spellcard issue is still on the table.

[Kagami]

FG had told me that if I declared an un-targeted spellcard in the manner that you claim to have done in 230, he would have publicly asked me to reformat it.

[Kagami]

Yes, and in my question to FG, I formatted my example using one of my own untargeted day-card in exactly the format you used in 230, with unbolded sakura hana in the subsequent line.

[Kagami]

FG told me the format was fine if it were targeted, though he'd rather the target be bolded, so no.

[Kagami]

Anyway, we'll see how FG responds, but my point here is that what I was told is only consistent with 230 if the card in question was in fact targeted.

I knew this yesterday, but didn't want to say anything on the assumption that it was in fact protective, and GIF was gambitting in his retraction. Now that the night is over and sakura lives, I want it cleared up.

[Kagami]

Pedit: and I am verifying it publicly.

Then why didnt u ask about the specific post and asked questions whether it was correctly formatted for an un-targeted spellcard.
If it was targeted i don't see it as bad from GiF, i can tell you that at least nothing bad happened to me during yesterday nor the night.

I'm worried that it influenced your ability. That your ability seems to have gone through just fine doesn't sit well with me.

[Kagami]

Also, we have to believe that GIF considered the card in 891 so useless that he'd waste it for no reason, but he used a card that was

actually

useful in his "protect sakura" gambit. They were both untargeted, so why waste a commute over a "force people to unvote?"

[Kagami]

unless your vote isn't on the leading wagon, apparently.

[Kagami]

Eh, we'll see how FG replies. From what I was told, that spellcard must have been a targeted spellcard.

[Kagami]

Ok, then everything is fine.

GIF is town~

[Kagami]

I don't think muffin is scum either.

feels like the scum are all or almost all in {gaiden, axxel, victor, RB}.

[Kagami]

I'd certainly vote GIF over you, but is there a reason for this pseudo-gladiate?

[Kagami]

Looks to me like ns knows pie targeted GIF last night, and believes GIF PGO'd her (possibly with one of yesterday's daycards)?

[Kagami]

More importantly, a scum PGO (especially if the PGO-ness is card activated) would never claim to be commuting.

[Kagami]

I should also reiterate, I investigate as simply "Mafia," so unless there are werewolves, which would be pretty unflavorful, this is probably not multiball.

There's either an SK or one of the two kills was from weakness or PGO or something like that.

[Kagami]

Also

We had come to a general consensus (myself and pie) of a gaiden/GIF/(Ice neighbor) scumteam overnight. I had mine presented first and he said that's what he was thinking too.

That my role name doesn't include "Miller" feels like a conscious setup decision to me; I think one of the rolecops has to be town.

[Kagami]

Actually, why didn't you guys role-cop me? From your perspective, that would be the obvious optimal move...

[Kagami]

what ns said.
i thought that kagami was the one who did it based on 12.3 flavor, but it seems ns did it.
might I ask why me?

I'm not reisen, and am not in 12.3; that wasn't a soft. Reisen is indeed my best character from 12.3, though.

[Kagami]

Revealing my flavor is fine. Anyone paying attention should know it.

This is part of why I think Gaiden is town, now. Not only would he have to not have noticed it (which he wouldn't, it's gaiden), but his scumbuddies would also have to have not noticed/mentioned it, and it would also imply that neither muffin nor GIF are gaiden-buddies

[Kagami]

[Kagami]

I want to say something about this but according to ESoD for busy people, Aya can't even beat Cirno.

Hey, I'm an extra midboss. I'm super tough.

[Kagami]

What about your ns read, gif?

[Kagami]

o, nvm, somehow missed that line.

[Kagami]

I have:


High tier town:

ns - Angry umbrella if not town
sakura - FG would have to be srs biz messing with us for "Alignment Investigate: blah" to be scum, esp if she has a daykill

Mid tier town:

Soony - Investigation success still bothers me
bork - flavor thing would be hard to make up, and runs the risk that this flavor is actually in the game, would drop a bit if GIF turns out to be scum
GIF - Not cagey with information, towny play, but bothers me that he role-copped pie instead of me

Low tier town:

Gaiden - Less towny than GIF with same complaint, but lack of my flavor knowledge seems unlikely for scum
Muffin - I just don't see scum muffin here, but this is as high as he's allowed to go

Low tier scum/PoE zone:

RB - role seems town, but play less so
Vic - meh
Axxle - meh

High tier scum:

Vezok - obvscum

[Kagami]

A lot of things are pointing to gaiden being town to me. Even the verbiage in 1669, with the card-nuker being "they," feels legit townslippy.

[Kagami]

There's zero motivation for GIF to claim rolecop powers if he doesn't have them, why is this even a question?

[Kagami]

There's zero motivation for GIF to claim rolecop powers if he doesn't have them, why is this even a question?

Further:

GIF suspected there was a pie-ns neighborhood from flavor. He would have every reason to believe pie had told ns her role name. There's no way he just made something up.

[Kagami]

All it takes for me to become conftown is by proving that I'm a rolecop, which is very easy thing to do.

You very obviously have a rolecop power, and to believe that you do not know pie's role is crazy.

To my mind, the anti-GIF argument requires either that you rolecop together with kill (which would be odd, but not crazy), that you reflexively killed via a PGO-like mechanism (which is pretty plausible), or that you rolecopped your kill target for the purpose of clearing yourself.

[Kagami]

Your role is kind of insane, though.

You rolecop every night.
You multivote every day. (this, by the way, is a completely worthless ability sans varsoon's ability)
You know everyone's flavor.
You are 1-shot unlynchable.
You are 1-shot BP.
You can make either of those 1-shots 2-shot.

And just for funsies, you can make people unvote you...


Just out of curiosity, did you submit the fakeclaim muffin asked for from your large as your UPick?

[Kagami]

Look guys, there is no chance that GIF is lying about the rolecop bit.

He knows our flavor, this has been proven. He knew Varsoon and Feirei were neighbors based on this flavor. He had every reason to suspect ns and pie were neighbors too, and even hinted as much. He knew that pie was townreading ns.

Why on earth would he then make up a role name for pie? He had every reason to believe pie would have told ns her role name, it would be suicide.

[Kagami]

I also expected Yuyuko/Yukari neighbor but that one was a miss.

I'm actually suspicious about that

[Kagami]

If GIF is indeed 2-shot unlynchable, then he has the most anti-town role ever conceived. If it's a scum role, then scum gets 2 free NKs and would have a surprise win at mylo. If it's a town role, scum still gets 2 free NKs, unless the player is sensible enough not to use it. This makes me think it would be town if he has it, where it would be zero-utility like most of the abilities we appear to have.

Imo, if GIF is scum, he's revealed a surprisingly large amount about his abilities. He openly claimed flavor knowledge, and rolecop ability, and unlynchable x2 without any real scum motivation to do so. It could be that he's going for a scum "conf-town" gambit by rolecopping his kill target, but then he'd have to explain why he never gets NKed if we bought it. He can't pretend that scum isn't killing him because BP, since we've already seen the bulletproof card and scum would know if he's recycled and activated it.

I don't think GIF is scum, and if he has the claimed unlynchable card, then I

definitely

don't think he's scum. I'm kind of open to the idea of lynching him once to check it, but I'd really rather lynch a leftover.

ns is town and that wagon is silly.

[Kagami]

o.o

Well, let's do this, Giffy

boo!

[Kagami]

Fie on Pim.

[Kagami]

Not really. Was going to, but got lazy.

[Kagami]

I will say, though, that I'm a little weirded out by the timing of pim's random comment and GIF's ability to address it immediately while not responding to my comment above that.

[Kagami]

(pim intercepted my boo)

[Kagami]

Not a complete loss anyway.

[Kagami]

VOTE: GIF

Is that enough?

[Kagami]

Why is axxle town?

[Kagami]

k, for funsies

VOTE: GIF

[Kagami]

We're not lynching ns.

[Kagami]

Nope.

[Kagami]

So it sounds like you have no problem with pim-slot or axxle-slot or gaiden?

[Kagami]

I prefer you or axxle. I think gaiden is town; not sure about pim-slot. He claims to be caught up, so we'll see that soon.

Bork thing is a little weird to me, too. Since there's no flavor paragraph, his PM must directly say "If mokou-tan is in the game, she is Mafia," which is pretty odd. His play doesn't strike me as scummy though, so meh.

[Kagami]

But can't he recycle cards?

He already used his recycle to get bulletproof back which he then used for tonight. There's pretty much no reason at all that scum-GIF wouldn't recycle the unvotable card and save it.

Dayvig today. Protect is silly.

ns is town. Sakura's analysis is spot on.

My lynchpool is still the same, but we should probably dayvig anyway.

[Kagami]

Looking for notscience's replacement.

Must be out trying to find the right girl :<

[Kagami]

....

Spellcard: Cold Sign "Cold Snap"

He's sick? Tell him the good news that the culprit is dying tonight.

[Kagami]

per request-

Townest

Malakittens notscience - ns is town
Sakura Hana - unless miracle mallet is actually just an ability whose power is that it's text can be whatever she wants
Nachomamma8 borkjerfkin - mokou-tan is scum
Varsoon - cop inno
GuyInFreezer - Not keeping unvotable, sakura gambit
SXTLHGaiden - various aspects of his play ring town
zMuffinMan - This is probably town muffin

--- The Gap ---

VictorDeAngelo Feirei - Don't know why this slot has townreads, but I guess it doesn't matter
Magua Axxle Hanasawa - I don't understand why this slot has townreads either.
Pim Raging Bull - Play is scummish, though role seemed town to me. Only feirei on the L-1 wagon seems possibly scum.
vezokpiraka - Godfather Child

Not Townest

[Kagami]

"Given your unproven Miller claim do you think you should be kept around to lylo?"

No, but I have a tendency not to make it to lylo in games with night kills, so I'm not too concerned by that.

[Kagami]

Why town Muffin? What the fuck is this troll list?

That was quick.

You didn't give reasons for the same reason I didn't, and you know it. Muffin is an superb scum player, and he's not going to be cleared by conventional "scum generally don't do this or that." The only thing that can be really be said here is that his play in this game feels different from his scum game. He's at the bottom of the town list for a reason.

[Kagami]

So you think pim-slot is town? If you are indeed town, then doesn't the L-1 wagon pointed out in 2205 strike you as a fairly compelling condemnation of the double-voter?

[Kagami]

An L-1 wagon that, from your point of view, is probably almost all town is a pretty strong indicator that the player is scum.

Why would we test that? No one is doubting the claim, and it would be incredibly stupid to fakeclaim something so easily testable.

[Kagami]

Seems to me like:

Sakura lied that the kill was unstoppable so that scum wouldn't block her
Vezok blocked the kill and killed her
Vezok probably also blocked GIF-slot

Varsoon is indeed cop-confirmed, though the cop investigation was publicly and non-falsifiably stated in thread, and the result didn't arrive until she survived to the next day.

[Kagami]

Sadly, vezok is an IC.

[Kagami]

O, you targeted muffin.

[Kagami]

Victor is still scum, but I don't think that's a good question to answer in full given the gamestate.

[Kagami]

8 alive, probably 4 scum. Whether or not my guesses are correct, no good comes of accusing half the playerlist.

[Kagami]

Because there's a possibility your buddies will bus you. If I accuse all of them, then they won't.

[Kagami]

O, and sorry, but I'm not the serial killer you guys are looking for.

[Kagami]

Ferry, what's muffin's flavor?

[Kagami]

o right, I knew that.

[Kagami]

Muffin is an extremely sensible rolecop choice.

We've already seen that FG took great pains to make the role names non-alignment indicative, and arguably non-role indicative, so your rolecop is essentially worthless. Testing muffin's claim is about the only use for it.

[Kagami]

2435

[Kagami]

I don't understand 2442, btw.

[Kagami]

Could be that votes stick to him.

[Kagami]

Because I believe two other people are group-scum who I'd also be willing to vote if their wagons somehow gain better traction.

[Kagami]

While you're here, what do you think about the TNE lynch wagon?

[Kagami]

He has a power that makes all votes stuck on him (except varsoon's, presumably)

[Kagami]

Let's make a list of known abilities of living players (abilities, not spellcards):

Magua - unknown?
VictorDeAngelo - neighborhood w/ varsoon. All votes freeze on him
zMuffinMan - Compulsive commuter
Varsoon - neighborhood w/ victor. first vote freezes on him
Kagami - Miller. Boo.
Nachomamma8 - unknown? Informed that mokou is scum?
vezokpiraka - IC
fferyllt - Rolecop. Knows all flavors. Multivoter.

[Kagami]

yes, that conversation occurred near the beginning of the game. Bork asked GIF if mokou was in the game (indirectly), because he knew she was scum, and GIF responded that she wasn't.

[Kagami]

what do you think about the TNE lynch wagon?

why are you interested in that wagon specifically?

thenewearth [8] - VictorDeAngelo, pieguyn, GuyInFreezer, Varsoon, Sakura Hana, vezokpiraka, notscience, SXTLHGaiden [LYNCH]

It's an interesting wagon from the standpoint Varsoon is claiming.

[Kagami]

Alignments are randomized, flavor doesn't matter.

I surprised muffin day 1, and pim day 2. The trigger for this has been explained, the effect has not.

There are still probably 3 scum, 1 SK. Town is fairly powerful, so I don't see 2 scum, 1 SK as a likelihood unless there are major foils to the two cops.

[Kagami]

prob not multiball, since my role specifically says that investigate as mafia (with no additional modifiers)

Miller claims bug me.
Doesn't that still not rule out the possibility of an SK?

Doesn't rule that out, but I don't consider that multiball~

[Kagami]

You mean... you brought up the idea of an SK?

Why are you SK hunting anyway?

[Kagami]

I don't think bork/nacho could be scum, though I'm very curious why they didn't protect sakura last night.

[Kagami]

Ferry, can you confirm that the spellcard "Wind God Hidden Among Tree Leaves" is a self-commute?

[Kagami]

i do not really like his choice of vig shot, but i do not see much point in crying over spilled milk

I expected more mockery of the IC than this, o.o

I think we need a real answer for what Cold Snap did.

[Kagami]

Victor, why do think feirei immediately townread varsoon when she had a spellcard whose only purpose was to disband the neighborhood?

[Kagami]

Yeah let's lynch kagami.

unvote
vote kagami

Or we could use some common sense and realize that if magua is town, any groupscum other than Victor is unlynchable. There's no reasonable vote other than magua or victor atm.

[Kagami]

No, I am not scum of any sort, I'm just pointing out how silly your vote is.

[Kagami]

Did anyone target GIF-slot last night with anything?

[Kagami]

Did anyone target GIF-slot last night with anything?

Can you rolefish more ?

Also assuming this is probably lylo how about a mass claim except me and varsoon.

You realize how ridiculous it is to have both these sentences next to each other, right?

[Kagami]

meh,

boo!

[Kagami]

You make me sad. If vezok had posted after that, I could have forced him to be pro-town.

[Kagami]

Anyway, question still stands:

Did anyone target ferry/gif with anything night 1 or 2?

[Kagami]

So yukari has no abilities worth reporting?

[Kagami]

Yes, but that was before 1975.

[Kagami]

Ferry, can you confirm that the spellcard "Wind God Hidden Among Tree Leaves" is a self-commute?

Pretty much.

Ferry, is it actually a commute, or something similar?

[Kagami]

No, it's that there were three players (two slots) who really didn't like your slot. Pieguy, who died night one and who we know targeted you, and NS turned malakittens who died night two and has unknown powers, but ones that seem destructive (and hence targeted at people they don't like). There's the possibility that there's no SK, and that the wind card you recycled is a PGO shot.

I wanted the commute answer because your "commute" is inconsistent with muffin's commute. You were able to rolecop both nights, muffin claims to be unable to act.

[Kagami]

(I actually think your slot is town, but the alternative best explanation for the gamestate includes an SK with a fairly bastardly power)

[Kagami]

Makes flavor sense that rumia's darkness bubble prevent her own actions anyway.

There's some reason I had dismissed the possibility that GIF had a PGO power, and I'm trying to remember what that was.

[Kagami]

yep.

[Kagami]

If you were in the game from the beginning, you'd have seen that coming >.>

1950

[Kagami]

to 1958

[Kagami]

o. lol. i should have guessed that was your ability worked, i just assumed it was similar to my thing where you submitted a target privately

What does this refer to, muffin?

[Kagami]

The "my thing" part.

[Kagami]

Ehh...

Ok, since people seem to want more disclosure, here is my stance on the game.

Varsoon is the SK. He killed pie night one, because she was scumreading him (in addition to GIF) and gaiden night 2 because gaiden could kill non-youkai (Cirno is a fairy, not a youkai). I believe that nacho is the only other non-youkai in the game.

Night 2 kills imply nacho is town. Neither scum-kill was aimed at the obvious target: Sakura. They were worried she'd be protected. Only Nacho-slot has claimed protective outside of sakura herself.

Night 2 kills make me think victor is indeed scum, since the ns/malakittens mislynch would have seemed far more viable to groupscum if he wasn't. Lynch-wagons up to now also imply such.

Ferry can't be a PGO (which would be the only feasible no-SK hypothesis), because a PGO wouldn't claim to commute.

[Kagami]

If I were scum, I'd have been very careful about who I surprised.

[Kagami]

It interacts with my spellcards, most of which don't do much.

I was hoping to set up a situation with the surprised status to make someone think they were hammered, and use post hammer reactions to divine alignment.

If I were scum, or if I somehow made it to lylo, one card would have significant utility. I can manipulate the surprised players' vote (like pie's card from last game)

I am aware that you're voting me, and that your vote is bad.

[Kagami]

My townreads are reads, and they haven't changed much. You whined about them earlier, as you'll recall. I remain unsure which among {muffin, GIF, you} are scum, since there has to be one in that group and I'm townreading all three slots.

[Kagami]

I think vic and magua are both scum, yes. Not really a crossbus since vic has bizarrely failed to retaliate the vote.

[Kagami]

As I said, I think both frozen neighbors are scum of different sorts.

Even if varsoon isn't the SK, it would still imply victor scum since there's no way both neighborhoods are clean.