MS Fantasy Camp 2: Reaper's Tale! (Finished!)


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Post Post #725 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:28 am

Post by Plum »

I'd argue that NS isn't an easy target inasmuch as he is not easy to get traction on, only easy for others to dismiss as an easy target. Or maybe I'm just shit this game so far due to a combination of internal and external factors. He may be an easy target, and I'm not super confident in my read here, but a read it is, will I or nill I.

I do believe NS is deliberately blending into the background. I think the placement of his votes is opportunistic - not in the traditional overblown "lol I can take advantage of it to drive a Shadoweh lynch here and now!" but come out of a desire to take advantage of certain things in the gamestate. I think that was possibly the case with his TH vote and more likely than that was the case for his Shadoweh vote. The stagnation of the Shadoweh wagon is largely to his discredit in this matter. Take a look at the others on it: CDB I'm meh on, but he's interacted about the way the wagon he basically started has been moving a little, at least. I feel there's a reasonable chance he's sincere even though he's minimally readable overall. Chamber, besides other Townish signals, I think is also showing honesty about the wagon he's on and how it's developing. Same with Cerulean (the distractions/multiple foci/getting into arguments with the target all normal). Is it *typical* of NS to do what he's doing? To place this sort of vote and just not give a damn, even though for someone complaining of the pervasive Day 1 malaise in this game, his hook on the game is much stronger and more useful than, say, mine: he having convictions that the one he's wagoning is scum, and she has the largest wagon? Meh.

To votehop a series of bad, irrelevant nonwagons like Rack when he'd done as little as Reck, skip over to the momentarily popular TH wagon, Shdoweh, quick vote off onto me because everything is meta (and for me, being meta is suffering), back to Shadoweh just kinda because? The wagons here that had meaning because they were large or controversial were there for him to merely be on, not remotely participate in.

To hell with it, I'd take that fourth wagon vote twice in a row, no drive, trajectory-obscuring thing as scum. I might well be wrong. And I don't feel super confident about anything here because it all sucks, mkay, will try to get myself together here and IRL, but for the time being, NS.

Sixty, I'd have even said you're right about me being on a nonwagon no one will follow except that every possible wagon has been completely stagnant for about three days and that I'm far from the only one complaining of horrible Day 1 unmooredness, but for you, MIRACLES. They come cheap.

MIRACLES:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Tim Howard

You are also on a bad wagon for mediocre reasons and ALSO a wagon that should have gone further and stalled and retreated later than it did, huh. If we want to move things? We'll move them. I'll try to help.

V/LA through Tuesday evening, more Passover :shifty:
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Post Post #726 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:42 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 724, Flipping Awesome wrote:Also, I read through Nero Cain's scumgame and realized that the markers that I'm using for him aren't as good as I originally thought so I need a reset especially since my other head disagrees.
Or maybe PA is just an idiot and you shouldn't listen to her. Now vote scum Venmar with me.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #727 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:06 am

Post by Lost Butterfly »

Day 1, VC 26
Tim Howard - (3):
Zdenek, Katsuki, Plum
Sixty - (1):
kanyeknowsbest
Katsuki - (2):
sangres, Flipping Awesome
Venmar - (2):
Nero Cain
, Untrod Tripod
Shadoweh - (4):
ChannelDelibird, chamber, Cerulean, Nobody Special
Zdenek - (2):
Tim Howard, xRECKONERx
xRECKONERx - (2):
Sixty, Lady Lambdadelta
Nero Cain - (1):
Venmar
Untrod Tripod - (1):
Shadoweh

Not voting - (0):
---

With
18
alive it takes
10
to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1:
26th of April at 5pm
Irish Time - countdown: (expired on 2014-04-26 12:00:00)
Plum is V/la.
[/area]
Mafiascum Fantasy Camp 2 - Day 7 ongoing
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Post Post #728 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:56 am

Post by ChannelDelibird »

Some of these mini-wagons need to be cannibalised.

Kanye, Venmar and Shadoweh should all start by moving their votes to one of the six players with two or more other votes already in place.
#greenshirtthursdays
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Post Post #729 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:08 pm

Post by sangres »

I'm even more surprised at being called an easy lynch.
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Post Post #730 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:09 pm

Post by sangres »

because nero pushing that looks more quixotically town than anything to me.
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Post Post #731 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:17 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 714, Sixty wrote:chamber - So, if you really, really, really don't want to be voting Shadoweh... why are you? Normally when you're pursuing someone you don't literally plead with them to make this one post make sense. Especially since I actually can see someone posting an I.Child as a different color in a vote count. Nonetheless, would hold final judgment until later in the game.
My reasons for not wanting to vote her are more tied to me being friends with her and having looked forward to playing this game with her than they are tied to my opinion of her alignment. I thought I had communicated that by voting her anyway, but maybe not.
Taking a break from the site.
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Post Post #732 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:27 pm

Post by Venmar »

sigh
I swear I'm trying my best

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Post Post #733 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:42 pm

Post by Sixty »

In post 729, sangres wrote:I'm even more surprised at being called an easy lynch.
An easy target. Or did you forget how so many people were like "sangres is being annoying, VOTE VOTE VOTE" in the early game?
chamber 731 wrote:My reasons for not wanting to vote her are more tied to me being friends with her and having looked forward to playing this game with her than they are tied to my opinion of her alignment.
Then in a somewhat interesting way we're in agreement. After this game, should we just stick to BSW or something like that?
Venmar 732 wrote:sigh
Don't worry, I'll push your job off on LLD. uo.ou/)<unvote>

Unvote: xRECKONERx
Vote: Nero Cain
(L-8)
walr~ooooooooooo~f.
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Post Post #734 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:22 pm

Post by Flipping Awesome »

In post 726, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 724, Flipping Awesome wrote:Also, I read through Nero Cain's scumgame and realized that the markers that I'm using for him aren't as good as I originally thought so I need a reset especially since my other head disagrees.
Or maybe PA is just an idiot and you shouldn't listen to her. Now vote scum Venmar with me.
Heh, of all the people in this game I expected to call me an idiot justifiably, you didn't actually crack the top ten. And if you read what F-16 said, you'll note that he determined that he'd called you town too hastily all on his own. And while I know F-16 has updated reads incoming, you'd actually be better off appealing to me to join you on the Venmar wagon.

--PA
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Post Post #735 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:41 pm

Post by sangres »

In post 733, Sixty wrote:An easy target. Or did you forget how so many people were like "sangres is being annoying, VOTE VOTE VOTE" in the early game?
Not so many votes, really. That was a long time ago in forum game time, and Nero seems quite attached to the read.
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Post Post #736 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:56 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

Oh please. Lynching/mislynching your friends is half the fun of this game.
The other half being enjoying working together to catch the scum but etc.
I'm very upset, everything is closed for Easter so I can't get a bottle of wine anywhere and I'm not sure if posting while sober is something I should do anymore. On the other hand I think something snapped last night because watching a kitten on a roomba made me deliriously happy.
In post 719, Untrod Tripod wrote: And I keep opening the thread and then closing it again because Shadoweh's ridiculous histrionics make me just want to die inside. Shadoweh I'm begging you: I've played games with you and you're a GREAT player when you're not flipping the fuck out like this. Please take a chill pill and help us hunt scum. I'd bet my bottom boondollar that scum are trying to make you a nonfactor by needling you out of the game.
Do you think either chamber or Cerulean are scum? Or NS? I appreciate the sentiment and I wish I could believe it were true, but there aren't alot of options for it here, so I don't know who those needlers would be.

I was kind of hoping to just sheep Sixty on Reckoner when I got home, but just looking at where their vote is right now is triggering me again. I'm aware that I -should- move just because no one else is going to end the standoff, but I still have no idea where else to go. Reading Venmar's scumgame he actually seems like he tries to be a nice guy scum and he was never like that from the start here. (Even if I think his hate-on for Curelean is more ridiculous then his rage vote on Cain). I'm pretty sure the only one on that list I agree on is Tim Howard still, so:

VOTE: Tim Howard

@MOD: Can you please confirm with both Tim Howard and Cerulean whether they're still hydraing (including engaging in any outside communications) and replace any that aren't with the main account of the user who's actually playing? Users who replace out of a slot aren't allowed to come back later if they change their minds, the hydras need to stop being given different privledges just because there's still a driver in the seat.
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Post Post #737 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:57 pm

Post by kanyeknowsbest »

hello?
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Post Post #738 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:00 pm

Post by kanyeknowsbest »

camn someone w. a town read on zedio tell me why hes town thank you
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Post Post #739 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:02 pm

Post by kanyeknowsbest »

In post 180, Sixty wrote:
Zdenek wrote:
In post 171, Sixty wrote:Zdenek, why are we Town?
Where did I say that I think you are town?
I didn't by the way.
I said that I was going to defend you for a bit for a change of pace.
If Tierce doesn't get that, I don't know what to say.
Fair enoof!
how come your okay w. this
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Post Post #740 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:05 pm

Post by Sixty »

@P_A: There may be a puppy in it for you if you pre-empt F-16 by voting Nero Cain.
sangres 735 wrote:Not so many votes, really. That was a long time ago in forum game time, and Nero seems quite attached to the read.
Nero Cain 534 wrote:I don't really have much of a case on Sangres other than gut/that early no lynch vote was dumb and some other reasoning I rather not go into right now. And mmmaaaayyybbbeee bussin' Kat.
yyyyyyeah okay
Your vote on Katsuki's going to be a bit lonely after plane-penguin moves. Would you like to move to some different scum?

---
Shadoweh 736 wrote:Oh please. Lynching/mislynching your friends is half the fun of this game.
If you want to go back to where you were before the kitten-on-roomba action we can start reminding you of your faults and failures. Let me know.

Also, spoiler alert, UT is buddying hard and there's no actual substance behind what he said. For instance, if he thought either of the puppyhalves were *really* good at Mafia he wouldn't be keeping his vote on Venmar because ______.

---

Hi kanye! Read like any post made about Zdenek that isn't by someone voting him please & ty
walr~ooooooooooo~f.
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Post Post #741 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:06 pm

Post by kanyeknowsbest »

iom wroking on it : ]
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Post Post #742 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:12 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

Yes, I had noticed that and it might possibly be why I questioned the part directed at me, but unless you were going to go back there my vote wasn't doing anything so.
Besides playing mafia has to be a sign of masochism, go ahead and tell me how terrible I am, just don't ask me to get really mad for real about it and then be surprised if I do. :V
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Post Post #743 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:18 pm

Post by Untrod Tripod »

In post 740, Sixty wrote:For instance, if he thought either of the puppyhalves were *really* good at Mafia he wouldn't be keeping his vote on Venmar because ______.
I can disagree with people I respect. In this case I do.
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Post Post #744 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:19 pm

Post by kanyeknowsbest »

oh huh maybe zeds not scuim.
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Post Post #745 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:19 pm

Post by Untrod Tripod »

In post 736, Shadoweh wrote:Do you think either chamber or Cerulean are scum? Or NS? I appreciate the sentiment and I wish I could believe it were true, but there aren't alot of options for it here, so I don't know who those needlers would be.
I'm reading chamber as town. I thought Cerulean's early posts were incredibly scummy, but they've been towntelling lately. I could absolutely support a Cerulean wagon though.

NS I could vote just for policy tbqh.
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Post Post #746 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:20 pm

Post by Nobody Special »

In post 740, Sixty wrote: Your vote on Katsuki's going to be a bit lonely after plane-penguin moves. Would you like to move to some different scum?
This is pretty disingenuous.

-Nobody Special
....what?



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Post Post #747 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:20 pm

Post by kanyeknowsbest »

i cheated and peaked at the l8est vote count.sry all ive sinned
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Post Post #748 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:21 pm

Post by Flipping Awesome »

Continuing from Post , minus the townread on Nero Cain.

TOWN:
Spoiler: Past reads
1) Cerulean [Empire/Tammy]:
  • Empire jumping in to make posts with poor internet access feels very town especially after Tammy let everyone know that he won't post till tomorrow night/Monday and it would have been super-easy for scum-Empire to come up with a pro-town looking reads list then, and posting at uncomfortable times to get his reads out there is a massive, massive town-tell for him.
  • Tammy's entrance to the game hit all the right notes I'd expect from Tammy as town and her interaction with Nacho and me solidified this read. I particularly like the boldness in Post in reaction to my post and her Post to LLD and Sangres saying they are unlikely to be partners fits in with my understanding of how she thinks about her reads as town and is completely unnecessary as scum. Tammy, your twitch about me is bullshit though so you better retract it.
  • I also agree with most of the reads Empire posted in Post , I am assuming it's his list of town-reads and I can understand the vote on Tim Howard considering most of what they posted didn't feel overwhelming townish or pro-active. I'll POE and follow up on them at some point. Empire's follow up of telling Nacho that his townread on Tim Howard is lame in Post also feels really confident and unlike what Empire would do as scum.
2) Sangres [fferyllt/Nachomamma8]:
  • I like Nacho's initial posts making fun of Empire and his ease and confidence in entering the game. I also liked his reaction test in Post and his efforts to sort me felt very town and I haven't seen anything like it in any of his scumgames and I absolutely love the "
    you are more obvtown than Tammy
    " as it would be much more easy for scum-Nacho to wait to see if I get pressured and whiteknight me for the cred, and I buy that his initial "no read" was to get a reaction and see if he can read me more easily based off of that.
  • I felt that ffery's Post was more likely to come from town than scum as she knows I can read her better than Nacho and I don't think she'd want to draw undue attention there especially after Micro 252 where I initially scumread scum-Sangres based on her posts and Nacho came in and changed that to a strong townread.
  • Nacho's reads list in Post made a lot of sense and I agree with most of it and not in a "politically correct" way with the right reasons but more of pointing out things that I initially missed and skimmed and came to agree with upon a re-read and it matches with his "
    F-16, where did you go
    " in Post as it looks like he wanted to sort me and I like his wanting me to meta-dive so he can read other people (but that's probably because I love positive attention). I guess I might be conf-biasing this read a bit but I can
    feel
    it that Sangres is town and I want them to be town and I think that they are town and Cerulean also townreading them takes away some of my paranoia.
3) Lady Lambdadelta:
  • Her role and the way she outed that role makes a lot less sense as scum than town and I agree with Nacho's point about it. I can see the town motivation for wanting to inform players about what will happen in the event of a no lynch whereas if she was scum, it would be much more optimal play to hide it. While it is possible she could have outed for towncred, I think she as scum would be perfectly capable of looking town and wouldn't need to use her role in a sub-optimal way.
  • The "Oh, fuck why?" response in Post felt town because Nero's IC post came across as somewhat awkward and I thought that she would jump on it if scum but I guess it is partly colored by my expectations that Nero may be an easy target for scum to push. I like that tonally, it came across as restrained. I am not too confident on this but I overall read LLD as town so I am decently confident about my townread.
4) Zdenek
  • I can see where Zdenek is coming from with his vote on Katsuki in Post and I was mildly concerned with Katsuki going with the flow and attacking Sangres and I like that Zdenek responded to it with a vote. From what I've seen of Katsuki as scum in Death Note where I was town and in Anything Goes which I spectated, he does tend to bandwagon, predict the flow of wagons and often hops on at opportune times and I was concerned with him voting Sangres as their wagon picked up.
  • Zdenek also makes a good point in Post about not no lynching in MYLO because it makes sense to wary of it if she was scum.
    Zdenek's questioning of Nacho felt like he was exploring a genuine misunderstanding and his wanting to change pace with Tierce felt vaguely townish and his overall posting feels reasonably genuine and town motivated.


5) Chamber:
  • I thought that Chamber's Post felt incredibly town and captures my thought process almost exactly upon receiving a red role PM. My thoughts went something like "Dammit, scum...
    please let Cerulean/Sangres also be scum so they can be miserable too as opposed to gleefully lynch us
    ...where's the list of our partners?...oh, wait no, we're TOWN, awesome!" I find it incredibly unlikely that Chamber divined that sort of thought process just by reading a role PM in the OP because it resonates a lot and I can townread Chamber off of this alone. Penguin disagrees because she doesn't mind playing scum and didn't have the same thoughts upon seeing the role PM but still reads Chamber town overall anyways.
  • I liked Chamber's confidence in his obvtownness. I also thought that him asking Zdenek to frame him because he can tell who visited him feels decently pro-town and helpful in seeing that Zdenek at least isn't lying about the entirety of his role even if it isn't conclusive evidence and I felt that the conversation spawned naturally from posts , , , and . Penguin also agreed that Chamber effectively making himself a miller takes away some of her worries about him and I think it pressures him to obvtown himself more.
  • Chamber's nitpicky push on Shadoweh and intent in getting to the bottom of her thought process feels like genuine scumhunting and his wanting Shadoweh to be town in Post came off very naturally and feels town.
6) ChannelDelibird
  • CDB's push on Shadoweh in Post feels a lot more like his general pushes as town based on what I've seen of him in the past. His posts just have that natural, unforced air that wasn't presented in the first Harry Potter game (linked in our CDB meta post).
  • The way he handled his townread on Tim Howard and the insistence on waiting felt like he didn't want to give out more information just yet and the confidence with which he presented his reads and the timing of it felt more likely to be town than scum. It felt like he was trying to derail what he thought was a bad wagon. While he could be whiteknighting, I think there would be several ways to do it which doesn't push people off the wagon like expressing some uncertainty, and if he is protecting a buddy, it will be apparent soon and his overall approach felt town.
  • I liked his . For one, being on the same page as me with regard to Zdenek and then working with Tim Howard telling them that Zdenek is town felt townish. I also thought that his reads list in his earlier Post were plausible based on his take on the game so far.
7) Sixty
  • Penguin figured that their general antagonistic nature rang town and she liked their originality in their scumhunting. While I initially found it odd that they kept disagreeing on the minutae of Cerulean's points, we both agree that it would have been easier to let it slide rather than gripe about read reasoning.
  • I agree with a lot of the points and reads that they brought up in Post and it mirrors what I am thinking for the most part and I can get behind their viewpoint of the game. I'd still like to discuss your read on Chamber because it is looking really obvious to me that he is town. But I can see that POV from someone who has a townread on Shadoweh and hadn't yet seen Chamber's response about him wanting Shadoweh to be town. Not sure what they are going on about with their read on us and I think it is fairly obvious that we are a hydra and have played plenty of games onsite. I also felt for the most part that their efforts to move the game forward felt genuine and I liked most of their content. I also like their comfort level and pro-active desire to work with a playerlist like this one.
  • Empire thinks they are town (which I think is an actual reason to read them as town after the Black Flag game). I am holding out for a stronger read to see if Tierce obvtowns herself at some point which she would if town.
So, overall, here's where we are at. We'll start doing those meta-dives to refine this list soon. Would like to hear if anyone has thought about these reads.

Town (Strongest->Weakest): Cerulean, Chamber, LLD, Sangres, CDB, Zdenek, Sixty
Scum are among:
{Shadoweh, Plum, Venmar, Katsuki, Nero Cain, NS, Kanye, UT, Reck, Tim Howard}


~ F-16
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Post Post #749 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:21 pm

Post by Flipping Awesome »

Also, want to look over Nero Cain's meta to solidify a read there.

Nero Cain:
TOWN: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy, NY 160: Terrible Melodrama, Open 505, NY164: Maniacal Street, Fire Emblem
SCUM: Imperial Intrigue

I was in the first two towngames, Penguin was in the others. Neither of us played with scum-Nero.


~ F-16

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