Newbie 1497 (Game Over)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why do I mention what and what has no bearing on my reads?

[Thor665]

Why do you mention things you do or don't like if it has no bearing on reading someone as town or scum?

What town benefit are you attempting to generate by mentioning and pointing out "something I don't like but don't find scummy"?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

*Sigh*

I have explained numerous times why I didn't like what you did. Just because I didn't like it, it doesn't mean I think you're scum. It's clear we have two different playstyles, I'm also very inexperienced so maybe I'm just playing the game wrong, if I am, I want to understand how I am and how I can improve.

It certainly could go towards future reads on you as scum, but as of now, it's just something that I disliked. I would hardly claim scum based on one incident.

[Thor665]

You are answering something I'm not asking, i suppose I could be theatrical about it too.

*Sigh*

To re-state the question you didn't answer; What town benefit are you attempting to generate by mentioning and pointing out "something I don't like but don't find scummy"?

That shows that I am aware that when you say 'I don't like' you do not intend 'I find scummy'. Now...answer the question.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You are answering something I'm not asking, i suppose I could be theatrical about it too.

*Sigh*

To re-state the question you didn't answer; What town benefit are you attempting to generate by mentioning and pointing out "something I don't like but don't find scummy"?

That shows that I am aware that when you say 'I don't like' you do not intend 'I find scummy'. Now...answer the question.

Who said anything about generating town benefit? I was giving my opinion on various things in my post, nothing more, nothing less.

[Madonna]

I see. So you've realized your mistake and you're retracting your retraction. Noted.

I do not believe I retracted anything, need to, and I feel I clarified what was required of me. If you still think that to be a retraction of a retraction, I cannot help you on this. Apologies.

I have re-read things and perhaps something was unclear. So when I said you and Not_Mafia have been in association, I meant that you two had voted on the same person (HempHHH) and also both were interrogating him. But, that does not mean the two of you are working

together

. What I was trying to clarify earlier, and obviously failed to do, was that you, Tr1ckster, seemed to be piggy-backing off of Not_Mafia, not that you two were in cahoots.

Saying this probably does not endear you to me, but I do hope it is more clear now! Sorry!

So I'm scum because I questioned NM's scumminess, and instead of finding out whether or not he's scum, you're going to lynch me, because you think NM might not be scum as well?

Oh, and plot twist! You're questioning NM's scumminess as well! Are you trying to scum claim here?

You are a scumread and thus a viable vote from me. You have ignored the reasons I have given for voting for you and are instead attributing reason as something Not_Mafia is up to, versus you taking advantage of his situation to benefit, that reason only being one of the many I gave for voting for you, Tr1ckster. You seem to think that Not_Mafia should have some precedence for my vote before it comes to you. Why is that?

I doubt I am lynching you, Tr1ckster. You might be confusing a vote with a lynch.

As a player, I would question anyone's alignment, and some people, id est you, Not_Mafia, and BlueBloodedToffee, do more to make me want to look further.

I am not claiming scum; that makes no sense whichever my alignment. I am simply fine with scrutiny.

Did I say you would lynch me yet? No. I said you're starting the build up for a mislynch. Please stop misrepresenting me.

So I'm scum because I questioned NM's scumminess, and instead of finding out whether or not he's scum,

you're going to lynch me

, because you think NM might not be scum as well?

???

Hemp is so OMGUS-y it hurts. >.<

And Madonna's protecting him and attacking me for not voting NM which is weird.

I don't know. I'd like to have a town read on her... but scumreading me because I have my vote somewhere she doesn't feels like she's making up stuff.

HempHHH is indeed a poor player and could stand to change their tune, similar to Not_Mafia.

You previously voted for Not_Mafia, Tr1ckster, and not long after both you and Not_Mafia go after HempHHH, and proceed to grill him in the same unhelpful manner. I am also reading HempHHH as town because he has been amazingly bad at explaining himself or getting into the swing of asking others, and yet he earned three votes that did not look like they were going to move. His case looked so hopeless that he almost has to be a town way over his head.

In regards to making stuff up, I still have yet to hear you address anything in my big, helpful post where I explained my vote:

I'll respond to your whole long post in a bit. There's a lot of looking for something where there's nothing there from the first read.. but I'll try and figure out if you're legitimately misunderstanding or you're trying to set me up for a mislynch when I get back.

So, you know, you could do that and you can set me straight. I would not mind.

I wish there were more responses to my vote, so as to get another's perspective, but perhaps no answers are indicative enough of my stance. Actually, seeing this

I slightly pull back on my Madonna town read.

lets me know Thor665 thinks I made a bad move. I do know I do not want to keep tangling with Tr1ckster if all it means is that we are going to build up enmity, but backing down from that is an issue too, yeah?

The question is what do I do now? Obviously read some more, and definitely consider shifting my vote since a Tr1ckster wagon is not going anywhere (and Tr1ckster is talkative enough to not warrant any pressuring), but joining with Thor665 and Aquanim is just too much association with the latter for now.

[Thor665]

Who said anything about generating town benefit? I was giving my opinion on various things in my post, nothing more, nothing less.

Does it help you get town/scum reads? Why am I reading this information from you if it doesn't affect your reads and isn't meant to tell me anything?

I wish there were more responses to my vote, so as to get another's perspective, but perhaps no answers are indicative enough of my stance.

If you want something, you should ask for it - not be sad no one is doing something they haven't been asked to do.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It provides other people with some information that may help/advance their own reads.

Not all information posted gets filed under 'reads'

[Thor665]

It provides other people with some information that may help/advance their own reads.

How will it help me though? Because as far as I can tell all you mean by it, at best, is "I disagree with this play but have no opinion on the alignment of the person who committed it - I'm just saying in a theoretical sense that this play seems less than the best play possible" which...is a pretty null and pointless as comments go. Did I miss something?

[Thor665]

Like, I could do twenty things you "don't like" and one you do like, and I might still be a town read. Meanwhile Hemp could do 20 things you "like" but if he is still otherwise unhelpful he could be a scum read, right? So...what's the point of the likes and dislikes? They appear to be meaningless noise, yeah?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It provides other people with some information that may help/advance their own reads.

How will it help me though? Because as far as I can tell all you mean by it, at best, is "I disagree with this play but have no opinion on the alignment of the person who committed it - I'm just saying in a theoretical sense that this play seems less than the best play possible" which...is a pretty null and pointless as comments go. Did I miss something?

That particular sentence may not have helped you. It was however just a small part of a post in which other bits may have been useful. I apologize if every one of my posts is not gleaming with information/reads that are helpful to one and all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Like, I could do twenty things you "don't like" and one you do like, and I might still be a town read. Meanwhile Hemp could do 20 things you "like" but if he is still otherwise unhelpful he could be a scum read, right? So...what's the point of the likes and dislikes? They appear to be meaningless noise, yeah?

Nope. It's more like 'I don't like that, and I have noted it. I don't like that either, I have noted it. 'That's three things that I dislike now...time to do something about it'.

More along those lines.

[Madonna]

Can we please lynch BlueBloodedToffee now? I see a lot of people not voting him at this juncture - I feel the above quote from 120 should really be a fairly self-contained scum case for him. If people don't get it they could at least ask - and if people get it and disagree they should say why.

While BlueBloodedToffee's behavior may set alarms off, I went with Tr1ckster because I felt his playing has also been fairly suspect and in need of explanation. I still feels it carries some weight, despite no one else really responding to my points, especially since Tr1ckster responded as to my credibility without actually answering anything.

I feel we are kind of at a stalled stage where people are considering their prioritie and reorganizing them, as I know I am because even if I was right, going after someone when everyone else is voting elsewhere is a silly endeavor. Let me read, catch up, and then make up my mind.

[Thor665]

Nope. It's more like 'I don't like that, and I have noted it. I don't like that either, I have noted it. 'That's three things that I dislike now...time to do something about it'.

More along those lines.

Do what about it? It's not a scum read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nope. It's more like 'I don't like that, and I have noted it. I don't like that either, I have noted it. 'That's three things that I dislike now...time to do something about it'.

More along those lines.

Do what about it? It's not a scum read.

A build up of dislikes is a start towards a scum-read.

[Thor665]

Happy with my vote.

[Madonna]

Who said anything about generating town benefit? I was giving my opinion on various things in my post, nothing more, nothing less.

In the more recent posts, I think this one is really terrible. What, why do anything not town beneficial? It reads as if you are saying you simply comment on things divorced from the game when you use the terms "like" and "dislike". Your likes and dislikes are a separate beast than the game of Mafia, but are still in here? I think everything everyone posts is one-hundred percent relevant. That big, long running commentary I put out? Sure, they were notes to myself, but I shared them because they are relevant in the sense you can see my thought-process, what I thought stood out, and maybe it will be relevant now or down the road. The idea that what you like and dislike is completely divorced from your reads of town or scum is head-scratching.

I wish there were more responses to my vote, so as to get another's perspective, but perhaps no answers are indicative enough of my stance.

If you want something, you should ask for it - not be sad no one is doing something they haven't been asked to do.

Eh, at times it can be important to see what others think demand attention versus demanding something be seen to. I will be sad when there is a real occasion.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In the more recent posts, I think this one is really terrible. What, why do anything not town beneficial? It reads as if you are saying you simply comment on things divorced from the game when you use the terms "like" and "dislike". Your likes and dislikes are a separate beast than the game of Mafia, but are still in here? I think everything everyone posts is one-hundred percent relevant. That big, long running commentary I put out? Sure, they were notes to myself, but I shared them because they are relevant in the sense you can see my thought-process, what I thought stood out, and maybe it will be relevant now or down the road. The idea that what you like and dislike is completely divorced from your reads of town or scum is head-scratching.

I agree. The post is poorly written and intentions not very well presented. I'm clearly not very good at explaining myself either.

My likes and dislikes are not completely divorced from my reads. What I was trying to say was that just because I dislike one incident, it doesn't mean I think that person is scum. However, if the same person repeats said incident, or does something else that I don't agree with or doesn't sit right with me, then I take note and start paying particular attention to that person.

I would basically like to build up a 'portfolio of evidence' for want of a better phrase, before I start scum-reading somebody. So I can say 'First you did x, you then followed this up by doing y, this was leading up to z' etc etc. The problem with this is, it's difficult to do this on D1 when not much has happened. But I am learning and I'm sure I will improve.

[Thor665]

My likes and dislikes are not completely divorced from my reads. What I was trying to say was that just because I dislike one incident, it doesn't mean I think that person is scum. However, if the same person repeats said incident, or does something else that I don't agree with or doesn't sit right with me, then I take note and start paying particular attention to that person.

So you moved off one L-1 useless voter and then put a different useless voter to L-2 while also indicating that my L-1 was scummy. Can you walk me through your thoughts on that?

I don't believe I said your L-1 was scummy. I said I didn't like it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My likes and dislikes are not completely divorced from my reads. What I was trying to say was that just because I dislike one incident, it doesn't mean I think that person is scum. However, if the same person repeats said incident, or does something else that I don't agree with or doesn't sit right with me, then I take note and start paying particular attention to that person.

So you moved off one L-1 useless voter and then put a different useless voter to L-2 while also indicating that my L-1 was scummy. Can you walk me through your thoughts on that?

I don't believe I said your L-1 was scummy. I said I didn't like it.

I'm sorry, are you still struggling to follow?

Your L-1 vote, I didn't like it. However, it's the only thing you have done that I have disliked so far. Therefore, I do not scum-read you, I just dislike how you entered the game with an L-1 vote. Just one dislike, call it strike one if you will.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The question is what do I do now? Obviously read some more, and definitely consider shifting my vote since a Tr1ckster wagon is not going anywhere (and Tr1ckster is talkative enough to not warrant any pressuring), but joining with Thor665 and Aquanim is just too much association with the latter for now.

Now this is certainly interesting. Have I missed something?

What makes you think there is an association between you and Aquanim so far? You seem to be worried about how your image comes across to other players, why?

It's also interesting that you're willing to jump off a wagon with 2 votes and make a suggestion that you're looking to join a different wagon, with 2 votes also. Do you often change your vote without much reason? Do you lack conviction for your own thoughts/posts?

If you switched your vote and somebody else voted for Tr1ckster/Hemp, would you change your vote again?

[Thor665]

I'm sorry, are you still struggling to follow?

Your L-1 vote, I didn't like it. However, it's the only thing you have done that I have disliked so far. Therefore, I do not scum-read you, I just dislike how you entered the game with an L-1 vote. Just one dislike, call it strike one if you will.

I'm sorry, are you still struggling to follow?

I asked you why you found my L-1 vote scummy, you quickly clarified hat you didn't, and said you disliked it, and that disliked does not equate to scummy. Then, when pressed about your dislikes - you clarify that what you mean is...well, that something you dislike equates to possibly reading someone as scum, ergo, it's an action you find scummy. Thus making me wonder why you ever tried to fend off my original question in the first place since it should have made perfect sense to you what I meant.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm sorry, are you still struggling to follow?

Your L-1 vote, I didn't like it. However, it's the only thing you have done that I have disliked so far. Therefore, I do not scum-read you, I just dislike how you entered the game with an L-1 vote. Just one dislike, call it strike one if you will.

I'm sorry, are you still struggling to follow?

I asked you why you found my L-1 vote scummy, you quickly clarified hat you didn't, and said you disliked it, and that disliked does not equate to scummy. Then, when pressed about your dislikes - you clarify that what you mean is...well, that something you dislike equates to possibly reading someone as scum, ergo, it's an action you find scummy. Thus making me wonder why you ever tried to fend off my original question in the first place since it should have made perfect sense to you what I meant.

I'll fix this for you. Here is your quote with changes;

I asked you why you found my L-1 vote scummy, you quickly clarified hat you didn't, and said you disliked it, and that disliked does not equate to scummy. Then, when pressed about your dislikes - you clarify that what you mean is...well, that

when you find a number of things

you dislike

this

equates to possibly reading someone as scum, ergo, it's

the numerous actions

you find scummy. Thus making me wonder why you ever tried to fend off my original question in the first place since it should have made perfect sense to you what I meant.[/quote]

[Madonna]

What makes you think there is an association between you and Aquanim so far? You seem to be worried about how your image comes across to other players, why?

I would dislike being thrown in the same boat because others might think I would only be following other people and not have my own thoughts, which would wound me greatly. I think it would be silly to not every consider how the rest of town might view oneself as a player. Are you not worried too, else you would not try to argue that three of your strikes add up to one scummy feeling? I do not even know how you keep to that, BlueBloodedToffee. Are strikes neutral, scummy, towny, or are they none of these? How would three of something not scummy add up to somethings scummy?

It's also interesting that you're willing to jump off a wagon with 2 votes and make a suggestion that you're looking to join a different wagon, with 2 votes also. Do you often change your vote without much reason? Do you lack conviction for your own thoughts/posts?

I do like to pursue achievable goals versus making pointless statements, so yes, I am willing to jump off someone with two votes to help someone else's interests, as long as they align with my reads too. Would I jump on the wagon for you? No, not yet; that would only be L-2, which is not a big enough wave to mention according to your logic. I would wait so I could be your L-1, BlueBloodedToffee.

Do I often change my vote without much reason? Well, I voted for Aquanim initially, and I changed it because I did not like Tr1ckster's behavior or the wagon on HempHHH, and I have yet to change it despite having reasons to do so now, so I am leaning no. I think, if anything, I do not lack enough conviction for my thoughts, and that is my vice.

If you switched your vote and somebody else voted for Tr1ckster/Hemp, would you change your vote again?

Would I change my vote to what? If who voted for Tr1ckster/Hemp? Why Tr1ckster and HempHHH interchangeable? This question leaves a lot to be desired, since I have not changed my vote, no other person has voted for Tr1ckster or HempHHH, and

none of this has happened

. You will have to wait for my vote for a better answer, BlueBloodedToffee.

[Thor665]

I'll fix this for you. Here is your quote with changes;

I asked you why you found my L-1 vote scummy, you quickly clarified hat you didn't, and said you disliked it, and that disliked does not equate to scummy. Then, when pressed about your dislikes - you clarify that what you mean is...well, that

when you find a number of things

you dislike

this

equates to possibly reading someone as scum, ergo, it's

the numerous actions

you find scummy. Thus making me wonder why you ever tried to fend off my original question in the first place since it should have made perfect sense to you what I meant.

[/quote]
That changes nothing of my point.

Whether or not it's two, four, of fourteen "dislikes" that equate to changing your read on someone - each dislike is something you find scummy.
I accept that not every townish action makes you read someone as town, and I can accept that not every scummy actions makes you read someone as scum. That is fine, normal, and not at all unusual. What I do not accept is the word dance you used to avoid answering something when, in the end, it was shown that your word dance meant the exact thing I had originally stated; that you found the action scummy.