Touhou UPick 2 - [Game Over]

[GuyInFreezer]

Lets see

sakura
vezok
ns
varsoon
bork
muffin
kagami

Town so scum are probably in leftovers

[notscience]

unless pieguy made the strongest case that was ever cased, i don't really get why this would make you want to 1v1 GIF today (or make you think it's a good idea)

Oh, trust me, he made a case

He also gvae me the task to make sure GIF was run into the ground no matter what.

So.

Do you really think that town has 2 roles that can determine flavor like that? Pie's passive let him see what cards are used during a night. For someone who knows flavor, he can equate cards to characters. GIF's role tells him all the characters.

You think town has 2 roles like that?

I don't know where he got Queen of all Trades from nor do I really care

But this overlap is bullshit.

AND NOW ONTO PIES CASE

Please note this was over night and as such time and etc are from that point in time

GIF is scum for-

1) He hadn't taken a strong stance on anyone for like the last third of D1. He has expressed townreads on pretty much everyone while the last time he expressed scumreads or even a PoE list was early D1. When lynches were being organized on BM and TNE, he didn't really take firm stances. He'd comment here or there but there was never really that pursuit that should come.

a) In several posts to Pie he asks for things and then doesn't follow up on them, (ns comment- Attempting to look busy, basically. Also today- he says pie looked off yesterday. Why didn't he pursue pie yesterday?). some examples are posts 759 where he wanted a reads list and 760 along with 1025 where he asks things and doesn't follow up on them

b) His sakura gambit. At various times he potshots others for questioning it "because it's not town motivation". Yet, he never takes a stance on these people, nor does he push them at all. Instead he's like hurrdurr lets push ns and TNE

c) He

conveniently

avoided doing anything while TNE was being lynched. He wasn't pushing a lynch on someone who would be better from his PoV and just as likely lynched, like Gaiden or RB (who he was scumreading). But, he wasn't doing anything to push his scum/poe reads while we wagoned Bit and RB either.

d) he votes gaiden for having a contradictory role, but if he really believed it he'd be all over him. From his PoV gaiden should be confscum. This ties into ^ too

So, what?

He's done nothing but go with the flow of the game, try to avoid making waves to avoid being noticed and then coast off the claim at the start of the game.

2) His stance re: the TNE lynch was so scummy Pie wanted to fucking dayvig him. Pie made the assumption GIF was townreading TNE in post 832 (ns comment- blah blah scum are implicit not explicit blah), based on working with TNE regarding his read on him. But look at TNE's ISO. After that point in time, he was V/LA. Around this time is when GIF's read on him went south. With just those posts, his read on TNE went south and TNE wasn't even here. It's complete bullshit and he needs to eat a nice helping of all american flamebroiled noose for it.

3) He can't see a town role that knows all flavor, plus THIS MAKES NO SENSE WITH TNE'S ROLE IN THE GAME. THERE'D BE TWO TOWN ROLES TO FUCK UP FAKECLAIMS AND SCUM ARE UNABLE TO FAKECLAIM

4) Push on me was abyssmal. The reasons he "suspects" me are absolutely terrible.

"Who says you're being lynched?
Where's that sudden "review my reads after I flip town" coming from?
Because that usually implies that you are no longer willing to talk."

He's twisting what actually happened in the thread to fit his agenda. He treated comments that should have meant "Trust my townreads once I flip town" to mean I was shutting down altogether.

"But I'm not nacho.
That could be easily a reaching excuse to set up a sketchy paranoia.
What is there for me to believe that it's not the case?"

This is page 83, paragraph 4 of the scum handbook. Attack a mislynch and then say "Well, why shouldn't

I

be scumreading [/b]you?[/b]

The last point could also have been manipulation to try and get me off.

1) is the strongest reasoning and he says there are also meta reason's he's withheld as well but it doesn't matter because he's scum as fuck already

There's also mention of VCA.

Look back to just before the Feirei replace out, there's a wagon of 3 people on GIF (all town, btw).

Victor comes in, votes for TNE before even reading and GIF jumps on. TNE makes perfect sense as a GIF counter wagon. (pie is adamant of scum in VDA/varsoon but this comes later)

[Sakura Hana]

Tinfoil Theory 2: Scum killed pie,

which would make me look heavily at GiF

as he knows how pie can get very scary for scum if let alive longer than a game day (RB perhaps too).

Who would've thought...

[notscience]

Sakura, scum killed pie because pie was starting to catch on to GIF at the end of the day and would have pushed him insanely hard today had he still been here, plus he wasn't really viable mislynch.

[Sakura Hana]

I know, pie had some thoughts on GiF at the end of D1, unfortunately you can't say that scum knew what pie was planning on doing today (unless they are spying on your neighborhood). I do agree however that if GiF's scum he'd have killed pie. Your case seems pretty good, i'm mostly trying to see what we're doing today to decide what ability i use or if i just do another day alignment scan.

Oh yeah and in case you didn't realize, my spellcard only lasted 1 day phase so im voteless again.

[FakeGod]

VoteCount 2.3

GuyInFreezer [1] - notscience
notscience [2] - vezokpiraka, Varsoon
Varsoon [1] -

GuyInFreezer

Not Voting [10]

- SXTLHGaiden Sakura Hana Axxle VictorDeAngelo zMuffinMan Kagami borkjerfkin Raging Bull

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

.

Deadline is May 8, 2014, at 11:00 AM PST.
Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2014-05-08 13:00:00)

[notscience]

I know, pie had some thoughts on GiF at the end of D1, unfortunately you can't say that scum knew what pie was planning on doing today (unless they are spying on your neighborhood). I do agree however that if GiF's scum he'd have killed pie. Your case seems pretty good, i'm mostly trying to see what we're doing today to decide what ability i use or if i just do another day alignment scan.

Oh yeah and in case you didn't realize, my spellcard only lasted 1 day phase so im voteless again.

I actually have a tinfoil theory that they are- GIF's flavor actually fits that role according to pie.

[VictorDeAngelo]

ATTENTION

Today is now a 1v1 of Me and GIF.

VOTE: GuyInFreezer

Works for me.

VOTE: Notscience

If he flips town then I'm fine with vigging/lynching GiF.

[zMuffinMan]

so scum are probably in leftovers

so gaiden, RB, victor, axxle? purely poe or do you have scum read/s on anyone here?

Do you really think that town has 2 roles that can determine flavor like that? Pie's passive let him see what cards are used during a night. For someone who knows flavor, he can equate cards to characters. GIF's role tells him all the characters.

You think town has 2 roles like that?

i wanna put an end to this now, because i'm pretty sick of seeing this stuff and i have a feeling it could happen a bit in this game

you're asking whether it's possible for two roles that don't necessarily conflict to be town here. there's a flipped cop who claimed two investigative abilities and a claimed day cop. obviously some shit is going on in this game, and fakegod loves doing this sort of role overlap stuff

last viscon game i played, town spent a majority of the game in-fighting because there were so many role overlaps and people couldn't see them as all being town (4 roleblockers who shared a QT and a passive-reflexive-roleblocker, 2 lover pairs who shared a QT, 2 docs - one a doc/vig/lover and the other a regular doc... all of these were town and most of these roles were red herrings because both scum were strongman). i spent the entire last part of the game trying to mediate fights about overlapping roles. i'm not particularly interested in having to do this again. GIF could be scum, but try not to get too bogged down in "omg role overlaps"

(side note: iirc it almost happened in the first upick, too, because sakura - i think? - mentioned paranoia about me when both nati and i had claimed investigation immunity roles - i died before it became an issue but *shrug*)

this is a fakegod role madness game. overlaps are not uncommon. not all of the overlaps are necessarily going to be town-town, but overlaps don't mean shit here

as for the case on gif,

1) He hadn't taken a strong stance on anyone for like the last third of D1. He has expressed townreads on pretty much everyone while the last time he expressed scumreads or even a PoE list was early D1. When lynches were being organized on BM and TNE, he didn't really take firm stances. He'd comment here or there but there was never really that pursuit that should come.

this is part of the reason why i had a scum read on gif for a while D1. i felt like he wasn't trying to make any waves and was kinda just drifting with the flow. not making enemies of anyone, not carrying any sort of controversial opinions, just sort of being there. it reminded me of something someone said about my own scum play in NY169 where it apparently looked like i was trying to be everyone's friend and coast.

i started thinking gif-town after the emotional reaction he had to people continually pushing for more information about his spellcard. i could see him possibly getting upset about it in maybe a similar way as scum, but it felt like it was more of a "fuck you guys, i was doing it with the best intentions and you had to go ruin it" sort of thing. i am aware he never followed up on the whole "scum were pushing it" thing but i chalked that up mostly to the fact he was V/LA for the majority of D1 (tl;dr i disagree with point 1.b)

point 1.a i'm kind of meh on. a lot of the time when i ask questions, i'm not looking to follow up on it immediately. often i make a mental note of things and come back to it at a later point if i deem it necessary.

point 3 i'm also kind of meh on. i'm not sure whether fakegod would include a role like gif's as a town role, but the stuff about scum fake-claims i have my own theory on. the tl;dr of it is i can see scum having role names which won't implicate them in any way, and the fact that there are also town role names which don't accurately describe roles (i.e. my own, but others have claimed it's the same for them) makes me think that, if gif is town, role cop is essentially a red herring

rest of the points i actually think are decent. i wanna see what gif says here

[zMuffinMan]

also i really don't like 1632

[notscience]

pie did some VCA too, he found convincing arguments for either Varsoon or VDA buddies. I really see the VDA trend better so I'll hit on it later in the day.

I am starting to doubt myself with regards to varsoon however, because I'm really starting to see a correlation in how Victor's playing that I'll hit on again. Btw, jic people are stupid- We aren ot hammering without both role and card claims anymore. Doing so is a scumclaim. Bringing someone to a quickhammer state is too.

1) Coo

1.a) It just doesn't seem like he cared about the answers or really pursued it. Even if you follow up later it's still following up, whereas there isn't a follow up here. Fair enough on 1b.

3) I defeinately think that's the way the cards work. I don't particularly agree regarding roles however. Meh, splitting hairs.

What do you think of Gaiden's claiming to have lost all his spell cards?

[notscience]

Also

We had come to a general consensus (myself and pie) of a gaiden/GIF/(Ice neighbor) scumteam overnight. I had mine presented first and he said that's what he was thinking too.

[zMuffinMan]

What do you think of Gaiden's claiming to have lost all his spell cards?

i dunno. it's either a scum role (though i doubt scum would target gaiden with an ability like that), or a town role who's keeping it hidden for some reason (and really, they should claim that) or he's lying through his teeth.

the latter two seem far more likely than the first.

[notscience]

I'm thinking along the lines of the last two also.

I'm trying to figure out if it's scum or town.

[GuyInFreezer]

This is gonna be ironic since 1 is apparently the strongest reason but
re:1 - I was busy and got detached.
Same goes for A-C.
D is because it's not quite a direct counterclaim and I didn't wanted to out my rolecop yet.
You saw me not trying to push nati much after the counterclaim in street racers.

2. It got stale. Hence compromise.

3. Are you sure that's pie's reasoning? Because I heard him whining about how he will not form s read based on a setup spec ever again. Anyway, spellcard cop is only effective as flavor cop if one actually knows the flavor. So that's a bias.

4. First point I backed off right after because there was a misunderstanding.
Second point doesn't hold because I never tried to lynch you.

[GuyInFreezer]

oh also "gif why didnt you push pie"
Because I was gonna investigate him

[GuyInFreezer]

@muffin: purely PoE. I had townread on all of them at some point.

[GuyInFreezer]

Also in the last touhou upick fake flavor were never given to scum.

[notscience]

1) So being detached means you ask questions that you don't actually care to pursue?

Being detached means you have time to potshot, but not time to commit to a stance on the people you're potshotting?

C makes sense kinda.

2) What made it stale?

3) Nah, I just made it up in y head and didn't check the QT where he put his case. I also get the feeling that roles weren't distributed solely on flavor, but also bbased on who got them. Pie did know flavor, soooooo.

4) never tried to lynch me yet*

5) And you think investigating someone with a rolecop is better than an inthread read? really?

pedit-

Who needs fake flavor

The way the flavor is worded is done so it's ambiguous.

[GuyInFreezer]

1. Could've been worse.
2. Can't tell you.
3. I doubt that's the case.
4.
5. It's an investigation after all

[notscience]

1) Excuses
2) Excuses
3) meh
4) lol
5) Yes, because your definitive investigation of a role with no alignment included can tell you why he was acting "strange"

[GuyInFreezer]

1. .
2. .
3. .
4. .
5. By that logic I should never track whoever I have uneasy feeling on as a tracker.

[zMuffinMan]

i think the logic is actually you should be pushing whoever you're suspicious of rather than hoping a somewhat ambiguous night action is going to make things black and white

[zMuffinMan]

2) What made it stale?

also would like to see an answer to this unless you literally cannot talk about it in which case

[GuyInFreezer]