Newbie 1497 (Game Over)

[Not_Mafia]

I'm still torn on Trickster, however I'd like some more pressure on Madonna aswell

VOTE: madonna

[Aquanim]

I'm still torn on Trickster, however I'd like some more pressure on Madonna aswell

VOTE: madonna

You'd like some more pressure on Madonna? Then make a case why I should be voting Madonna. Considering there's about three days to deadline I'd really like to be seeing a serious case from you at this point.

[Not_Mafia]

Besides the logical inconsistencies other players have touched on. I don't like the walls and walls of IIoA .

Also I forgot to answer your question about BBT. I like his early posting because I lile the inquisitive nature ot had and it felt very genuine. I can quote later when I'm on my laptop.

@mod I can't remember if you've prodded Tynn but she has site flaked so could we get a prod/replacement on her please

[Knell]

Stealing from Belisarius. Hope you don't mind.

Spoiler: Aquanim

Early play: Tentative and inquisitive. Some questions I disagree with. Some questions I'm getting the feeling are trying to disarm people. I think he's a bit on the defensive side.
#43 is reasonable. I still can't seem to get a handle on him.
#91 doesn't lead anywhere as far as I can see. He's been asking questions, some relevant some not. His defense of Tr1ckster because of all his contradictions makes a little more sense now and changes my perception of his play some. but I need to keep reading. I wasn't absorbing the game my first time though.
#153: My slight confusion on him continues. He's asking questions, but he hasn't done much else. I'm not sure if he's drawing conclusions for this and going to act on his information or if he's just trying to look town by asking questions.
#165: TLDR; you were right.
#173: Coincides with my initial view on the matter, and still is to an extent. Overall, I didn't have an impression, on you until this point. I don't think 28# was worth mentioning. There's a lot of analysis here. But also some reaching across the isle that can be a problem. It's difficult to know if a person is side stepping or not. Well, yeah. It could be a safe place to keep his vote. *sigh* I feel sort of sad about this case. I like the perspective for the most part though. slight town read granted. However, the defensive town player who does nothing but defend himself exists. I also was about to point out that he seemed thirsty (and mentioned this elsewhere), from when he starting asking Hemp questions. A problem I'm feeling is that your perceptions of the early point leads to a fixed position on later points.
#176: Get on with what? Not posting?
#179: Well you said you weren't interested in stating your town reads, but when asked you did so. That's not so bad.
#182: Well, you're consistent aren't you?
#229: Sure, I'll take a swing. Based off of initial impressions, I do think he's scum. However, there are some things that bother me. First, I have not seen much rejection of the BBT lynch, usually more than 1 player would not be okay with his lynch, given this means at least one mafia is pretty good with lynching him. You can include me in this as a player of ambiguous alignment from your perspective in accounting for this. Second there are some contradictions in your argument, in so far as he has seemed pretty big on getting reads on inactives. Lastly, he took a swing at Madonna with a large number of leading questions, when he needed allies and not enemies. That said, arguing for "optimal scum play" doesn't usually work. And it turns out, that Not_Mafia was also calling him town, which defeats some of my own arguments, but I feel Not_Mafia is town.
#253: The last part, doesn't really jive with the "I'm, not, not listening to you and I can totally change my mind" Unless you were turning up the heat, which is entirely possible. Were you turning up the heat? Or was it lynch time? TLDR; your TLDR; wasn't really representative of what was in your post man.
#255 Heat's up all the way.
#262: Thirsty, that's good.
#301 perculating maybe? He kind of showed it when he started justifying his vote on me. Though it might have been a canned argument if he needed one. A lot of his arguments feel canned.
#325, I could certainly see you keeping yourself open to the possibility of being wrong if you were town, which is what you implied. First to point out the potential town slip.
#336: Fucking hell. Your reads are identical to mine, except on Tr1ckster.
Ultimately, I read Aquanim as town up to this point, with a little niggling suspicion. Mainly what bothers me is his interpretations are too good except when he's making a case against someone. He's also quick to remind people that he doesn't know who the scum are. If that makes any sense, you are a master at divining my thought process. I thought what makes him HARD town though is that his reads have developed.

Spoiler: Belisarius

#352: Sorry for cluttering up the thread. Disagree with BBT. But understand idea.

Spoiler: BBT

I've not gotten anything from him on the first two pages.
#33: Well, this is hypocrisy. He's speaking strongly.
#83: this is the fence sitty post, but what he's saying isn't without reason and it sounds like his position based on a later post.. His reads on the two players of N_M and Thor seem a little reversed?
#109: Well, can't argue that. I'm not entirely sure if this is a pressure vote to change how he's approaching it, or that he thinks Hemp is scum who doesn't know what he's doing or if it's a little of both. #110: is painfully true though. I always feel like this when I'm town.
#118: I'm not sure what to make of this.
#120: Well, he's explained his reasoning. Even if they are the same thing, how does that make him mafia though? Just that you don't believe his reasoning?
#159: He sounds thirsty to me.
#175: Tuo quoque again. I agree that it was odd that this is the first thing he gave anything resembling reads, but his argument that he got the impression that you were the type to act this way, not that he holds himself to your standard.
#183: You weren't being very subtle actually, well following isn't really scummy. He came up with his own reasons, I'm sure he or someone brought that up a lot. The argument is very incorrect, but Aquanim, could still be scum, sure. I don't really think a sheepy or "having my own reasons" thing is particularly mafia or town.
#217: So Thor caught you up and unbeknowest to you until later, it got rid of a significant amount of what player's thought were your contributions which put you into the red as far as "value" went. His point pretty much stands untouched by your later explanations.
#220: we have more thrist here. Leading questions. I don't really get the interesting thing. However, something bugs me about this. Would scum BBT go after Hemp, Aquanim, and Madonna? Particularly Madonna at this point? It caught my eye, but Madonna seems pretty meticulous, and I'm not entirely sure she didn't expect people to pick up on her own self-consciousness.
#233: This is a "positive change" in that, it's what most player's wanted(minus the scum team if you're town).
#246: More change, I can understand the mentality of town reading the player that votes you for some reason, it's tempting because it's easy.
#251: I feel like this is a pretty townie post, minus asking what Aquanim's own reasons were, where if he had read Aquanim's arguments for why he was scum, he would...See his reasons for thinking he was scum. I do agree though that being concise/not concise is probably not a scum tell.
#308: I don't know if he would trap himself like this as scum, but it really makes me aversive out of instinct.
Read: Slight scum. It never really occurred to me, but BBT seems to have a lot of blind spots.

Spoiler: Madonna

#14 this person is reading the game a lot.
#16 open and opinionated. Willing to explain her views.
#36 accusation of Tr1ckster is true. I just realized she disappeared for a while.
#139, oh hi. What are these reasons? Also, you're fun. And kind of jerked my read of you into town territory.
#205: Well, we're pretty close to lynching Tr1ckster as of present. Thoughts on him as of now?
#292: It really depends on the buddy buddy thing. My group gets along pretty well, sometimes hard buddying happens between town, scum, or a combination of the two (which is pretty hilarious, when it happens) Worry about if it's happening and try to discern which, instead of just trying to break it up? Reverse competency argument is a go, that shows a little paranoia, but it is pretty consistent with how you introduced yourself. Point about Tr1ckster keeping a handle on it. As scum, it would certainly be within his win condition to prioritize seeming town than worrying about keeping a lid on his temper for the newbies. Point, pretty much agree about undisclosed clauses, he has done this before and recently to me. I tend to think it's scummy when they don't show their clauses when it's highly relevant and they've been relatively open up until this point. Reasonable that self-reporting isn't too reliable in this game, however there's a catch. Consistency and breaking consistency with self-reporting what they'll be consistent on can give you a good idea if they're mafia or not depending on how, when and why they break it. That said, why are you okay with Tr1ckster voting you?
#302: Well, the AtE worked. A little? Sorta? I don't know.
#339: You were kind of damned if you did and damned if you didn't here. You're correct that I'm town. But otherwise our perceptions aren't really in sync much. I can see the running Interference on N_M, but I think he's running interference as town.

Null with a townish hue. Sort of just with everyone on this one. Town, degraded slowly to very slight town as the game went on, sort of the opposite of Thor.

Spoiler: Not_Mafia

Self voting, still don't get.
#29, he doesn't like being voted. some 4 posts later he does something about it, he knows what people expect of him, and recognizes how to dismantle early justification from players that have particular standards.
#72: He avoids placing Thor anywhere, which bothers me a little. He appears to have kept to his town read on BBT. His characterization of players is fine given how early it is, you can't have much more than impressions at this point and that's what he gives.
#101: I understand the desire to use Thor as a resource, since he's the I.C. and seems pretty reasonable.
#123: As it turns out, no. Maybe making a town buddy though.
#164: Purpose of this?
#228: Hi again! You're highly responsive to new information aren't you. Read development seems natural. Given the amount of time you seem to have. Luca wasn't a very reliable poster. You missed tr1ckster in there, but I remember you saying you town read him until you read his response to my pressure. Were you town reading him as of this time time? I mean, besides that you had process of elimination in there, and he wasn't in it?
#231: Back bone detected. Information gotten from this. I guess you were the other one that's defending BBT? Why didn't Thor mention you?
#267: Makes sense to me. Given he started to ask Hemp questions pretty shortly after. That said, he might do that regardless.
#272, I kind of got the opposite impression from it. I didn't start seeing him as possible town until he started going after Aquanim. Questions are good. Throwing people under a lot of scrutiny a bone is good.

I really think not_mafia is not mafia. Read rest of posts, and buy that the bone throwing has grown into full grown paranoia that BBT lynch is a scum approved mislynch. I also liked that he ran parallel to me, is responsive and constructive with new information and willing to help a guy out with pressure. While also, coming to conclusions himself about Tr1ckster's response to it. He's really hesitant, but that probably just implies he doesn't know who the scum are.

Spoiler: Thor

Read: Thor. Kidding.
#56: Pressure vote. To get him in gear. It worked. I'd say this is a pretty good start.
#57: No, yours was clearly the best vote, unless of course someone voted Mafia during the early stages, in which case that was the best vote.
#97: Good question. His reaction was slightly scummy, yes.
#119: Did I misinterpret the purpose of putting him Not_Mafia one vote to lynch?
#167. I don't really get it. May I ask why? Is it just that he held a double standard?
#199 It probably does have bearing on his actions more than on his reads.
#203: So in 204# you've got him. Now what?
#215: And so you are.
#226: And so you still are. Agree with Not_maf that he might not really have been pushing for a lynch due to his thirst for asking Hemp questions.
#280: ...? Okay.
#295: You mean BBT, not Hemp I think. You're right and that he hasn't proved it is miniscule though.
#313: Why are you acting outraged here? You seem to have infinite patience.
Read on Thor: Null with a townish hue.
Could you explain your current read of Tr1ckster? I think you've played with him before, but I might be misremembering.

Spoiler: Tr1ckster

#9 I'd like you to remove question #3. I agree with Madonna about this after reading some player's responses. Have you asked this question before?
#30: Most of these questions are relevant, but there are some questions in there that don't help. "do you know what these might be" leads nowhere. His best questions are directed towards Tynn. There's a bit of underestimation here.
#39: A bit tentative with his response to Madonna. He makes some accusations but moves his vote in a different direction, which seems to be avoiding conflict. He wants to get along with people.
#46: How does the discussion flow more from voting Not_mafia than Madonna? The path of least resistance?
#59: The path of most resistance?
#64, What? Okay. Is the frustration here genuine? #70 points to a continuation of a stronger more aggressive tone. But I can get mad at a player's lousy play as mafia too. I got lost here. Opportunistic cheery picking?
#73: I don't get how he keeps going back and forth. My conception so far is that he's looking for people's reasons and seeing if they're good enough. But I have two interpretations of what good enough means from him as a player, a "Good enough excuse to vote someone" or "Good, protown, reason so I don't have to vote you, scum bag. "
#89: This is probably an actual phenomena (the getting someone driven up to one vote before lynch and then having it break down) I didn't peg you as the fence sitty type, why can't you just give reads and change your mind later?
#117: You gave me the impression you were taking a lot with more than 9 tabs open.
#132: huh?
#145: I'm getting the feeling that you respond this way regardless of who votes you, or why for the most part (With the exception of Beli, if I remember recent exchanges correctly)
#162: I...You....
#232: The problem is, is that while you call it pressure it looked like genuine anger to me. Which is a bit different. Are you usually angry and frustrated by bad players?
#258: is pretty consistent with an older post talking about thinking about "possibilities" and so on. It's a pretty decidedly town post. What bugs me mainly is that he's inconsistently aggressive towards those that vote him so far. I think he's pretty good with lynching anyone that goes after him. But it might be his temperament. He's fairly reasonable when he looks at someone who doesn't go after him. I don't think Not_Mafia is a newbie, he's probably more experienced than you are.
#288: I still don't know if this is fake or not. It's principled, but there are plenty of principles he's contradicted in this way. There's a large amount of tonal shifts coming from him. He basically turns up when he wants to turn up to get a certain result. So I suppose the best way to read him is to watch how he turns it up and wait to see something definitive. It's weird because I think I should actually be town reading him like crazy (minus, the thing he did where he "town" slipped, which still genuinely bugs me now that I understand a little more how he thinks). he's part derp. Part anger management problems. Part scum hunter. I've been looking for indications that he thinks there are scum in this game up to this point, but I can't find them. He's showing frustration that he doesn't have much to work with though, (I personally think there is plenty to work with day 1, maybe not to the point of certainty, but that's rarely if ever the case in a game as ambiguous as this one).
#291: ? I think I get you a little more.
#293: If you throw more stuff at him/her it'll stick eventually I guess. Well, for me, I just look at your previous games.
#304: Hello there possible unverifiable town slip. This is the first indication I've seen from him that indicates the idea.
#305: I still can't comprehend this man. Was it that he was tired? It seems really blunt to point out exactly where he made his particular slip in his next post while also simultaneously reminding everyone that "yes, I am very tired and could totally make this town slip! Please notice so I don't have to continue this charade!"
#319: He is carrying 3 people in his head.
#328: Doesn't help me any.
#329: -_-

Read: Conflicted. I'm feeling everything from obvious scum to obvious town. Would like Thor's input on Tr1ckster snowing Madonna.
#

Spoiler: Tynn

#19 first interpretation and asking for clarification.
#24, bothered me a little. I'm not sure if I'm interpreting it wrongly, but I felt like she is waiting with expectation for a shoe to drop. I understand that town "watch" people too though. But I interpreted it in a negative way, of waiting for something bad to happen. Though, outwardly she doesn't seem worried.
#26 felt pretty townie.
#81: tuo quoque.
#82: Is helpful. I missed this.
#113: "Oh boy, here we go" seems to reinforce my "expecting shoe to drop" point. Tr1ckster just seems to be a ??????? kind of guy. I'm sort of weirded out that mafia haven't actually jumped on him yet if he were town though. Mafia love guys like him, because they can tear him a new one and discredit him all day long. it really does seem like someone would've gone for.....*Looks at vote count* Huh. UNVOTE:
#128: I'm conflicted on this post. She's basically telling it how it is, and for what seems a vast majority of the player's on this site and she's also more fair than a lot of other players when it comes to this, because she at least gave fair warning. But I find the opposite. The path of least resistance for survival is usually the one of consistency, scum sometimes slip up in a major way here, but these are a bunch of minor ways.
#188: This line of thought still bugs me, but sure. I can see how not having people participate could be a bigger problem for day 2, than BBT who is. It's also pretty perceptive of you, I didn't notice that.

Read: Slightly scum.

[Knell]

Not completely finished (phone post) almost had a heart attAck because computer slowed down to a crawl. And I didn't save it.

[Tr1ckster]

Read: Conflicted. I'm feeling everything from obvious scum to obvious town. Would like Thor's input on Tr1ckster snowing Madonna.

*blush*

Oh look. I'm a Thor read.

I feel special.

Where is Thor anyways?

[Not_Mafia]

You should repost that unvote. Unvotes in a spoiler tag are easily missed.

[Knell]

UNVOTE: comp still sucks. Back later today.

[Aquanim]

...
Also I forgot to answer your question about BBT. I like his early posting because I lile the inquisitive nature ot had and it felt very genuine. I can quote later when I'm on my laptop.

I'd definitely like to see the particular quotes you have in mind.

In regard to the point that's been raised (iirc by a couple of people) about BBT being unlikely scum because everyone's willing to lynch him... if everyone was in fact willing to lynch BBT I'd have expected to see his wagon grow beyond two votes. Someone sitting on their hands and saying "oh well he might be scum but I don't feel like voting him right now" is hardly unbelievable behaviour from a scumbuddy.

[Zaicon]

Vote Count 1.12

Tr1ckster (2):

tynn, Belisarius

BlueBloodedToffee (2):

Thor665, Aquanim

Madonna (2):

Tr1ckster, Not_Mafia

No Vote (3):

BlueBloodedToffee, Knell, Madonna

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline is Thursday, May 1, at 9:00 AM CDT, which is in (expired on 2014-05-01 09:00:00).

@mod I can't remember if you've prodded Tynn but she has site flaked so could we get a prod/replacement on her please

Tynn will be replaced.

[Thor665]

@Mod - considering the replacement time and game length, could an extension be considered?

@Rest of players - I hate that I'm asking for an extension, so let's kick this into high gear.

No Vote (3): BlueBloodedToffee, Knell, Madonna

The above players are terrible, bad human beings, who are hurting town and shaming the game of Mafia.

Seriously, we're 19 pages in...are you telling me that you STILL haven't figured out who you'd like to see lynched? PICK SOMEONE! Pisck someone NOW, right now, immediately - vote that person. I'd like to at least have two days to discuss a claim.

Ruddy Yynn the lurksack who is being replaced is currently helping the town effort more than you guys.


@Aquanim - I have never played with Trickster to my recollection. His reaction to Madonna was not something I even particularly recall as interesting, do you mean his reaction to Knell? That interaction left me with townish on Knell, but no good read on Trickster. My issue there is I think Trickster considers himself quite clever, so the wordplay felt/feels like he was being coy, yes, but a *lot* of his posting gives me that same feeling. I haven't seen any of his underlying thoughts come up to the surface and do anything pro-town so I fully understand and agree that it can be seen as skeevy. I'm just not sure it's anything more than unoptimal play at this stage. I'd probably be happier lynching Madonna, frankly, though I think BBT is a far superior choice to either.

[Belisarius]

@Aquanim - I have never played with Trickster to my recollection.

Your memory is short, Mr. Goldfish.

[Aquanim]

...
@Aquanim - I have never played with Trickster to my recollection. His reaction to Madonna was not something I even particularly recall as interesting, do you mean his reaction to Knell? That interaction left me with townish on Knell, but no good read on Trickster. My issue there is I think Trickster considers himself quite clever, so the wordplay felt/feels like he was being coy, yes, but a *lot* of his posting gives me that same feeling. I haven't seen any of his underlying thoughts come up to the surface and do anything pro-town so I fully understand and agree that it can be seen as skeevy. I'm just not sure it's anything more than unoptimal play at this stage. I'd probably be happier lynching Madonna, frankly, though I think BBT is a far superior choice to either.

Um... I'm not sure what you're replying to here. I don't recall asking you or anyone about Tr1ckster's reaction to Madonna, even after Ctrl-F'ing "Madonna" in my filter. Are you replying to someone else, or starting from something I said and going further?

I think I'd prefer to lynch Belisarius or the Tynn slot over Madonna but I'm not vehemently against any of those three. BBT is still my first choice, though.

[Not_Mafia]

Why Belisarius? That would give us 0 info

[Aquanim]

Why Belisarius? That would give us 0 info

I think he's slightly more likely to flip scum than Madonna; I wasn't impressed by the quality of his reads in that listpost. My difference in preference between the two is pretty slight, though.

(And while there aren't a huge number of interactions with Belisarius in the thread so far, I'm pretty sure that in the hypothetical case where a successful wagon was built on Belisarius there would be plenty of information to go around.)

[Knell]

VOTE: bbt

[Tr1ckster]

The more I think about it...

The more I think BBT is probably town.

And the less I'm willing to lynch him.

[Not_Mafia]

urgh this BBT wagon is baaaaaaaaaad

Aquanim, what do you think of BBT's most recent post in relation to your "reactive not proactive" scumread?

[Not_Mafia]

Also I'm not ruling out Trickster whiteknighting the BBT slot

[Tr1ckster]

Also I'm not ruling out Trickster whiteknighting the BBT slot

What is whiteknighting?

[Not_Mafia]

When scum defend a slot that they know to be town that's getting lynched in order to gain town cred the following day

[Tr1ckster]

When scum defend a slot that they know to be town that's getting lynched in order to gain town cred the following day

Ah. I see. So ..

Are you saying you think I'm scum?

Or you're just saying it's a possibility I'm scum?

[Thor665]

@Aquanim - I have never played with Trickster to my recollection.

Your memory is short, Mr. Goldfish.

Yeah, I suppose so, though here is part of my commentary about that slot;

I think there wasn't enough of you to see for me to really offer many thoughts on you, plus I was already tunneled on you by the time you showed up so everything you said pretty much sounded scummy to me.

So I'm hardly surprised I don't recall him.

Um... I'm not sure what you're replying to here. I don't recall asking you or anyone about Tr1ckster's reaction to Madonna, even after Ctrl-F'ing "Madonna" in my filter. Are you replying to someone else, or starting from something I said and going further?

Maybe it was Belli? He seems to be responding to it now, so we'll just go with that as the answer.

I think I'd prefer to lynch Belisarius or the Tynn slot over Madonna but I'm not vehemently against any of those three. BBT is still my first choice, though.

I don't feel Belli - and though I guess I could lynch Tynn I'd probably be happier lynching Madonna or something - Tynn is too much of a non-entity to be anything but a 'meh, why not?' lynch at this stage.

urgh this BBT wagon is baaaaaaaaaad

How come?

Also I'm not ruling out Trickster whiteknighting the BBT slot

Naturally.
I'm not ruling you doing it out either though

@Trickster - White Knighting is basically a scum player defending a town player who is about to be lynched. If the lynch goes through then the scum player picks up some nice town points for their effort. If it doesn't, then maybe the scum player gets the town in question to think favorably of them. It's a pretty decent basic scum tactic. Did you really never hear of it before?

[Tr1ckster]

@Trickster - White Knighting is basically a scum player defending a town player who is about to be lynched. If the lynch goes through then the scum player picks up some nice town points for their effort. If it doesn't, then maybe the scum player gets the town in question to think favorably of them. It's a pretty decent basic scum tactic. Did you really never hear of it before?

It sounds familiar...

So I may have heard it... But if I had, I didn't remember what it meant.

[Not_Mafia]

@ Thor, it's largely a gut thing, as in, this is not a "I don't think they're scum but I understand the wagon and can see it from town" this is a "this a scum driven wagon thing" and I'm getting major bad juju from it.

White Knighting is something I think a lot of people have a comprehension of without knowing a name to put to it