NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[chamber]

The memories.

[chamber]

random my ass! you edited those dice you dog.

[chamber]

Vote tigris

[chamber]

Two third votes? I think we have to lynch you now!

[chamber]

Yeaaah. I'm going to be less confident this game just because people have old styles, but that screams scum to me.

[chamber]

Her words weren't actually meaningfully responding to the context of the question.

[chamber]

Not really feeling it, petroleumjelly.

[chamber]

That post is approximately 100% rhetoric.

[chamber]

As in: the response was in the abstract rather than talking about what the vote was concretely supposed to do in this game? Meh.

Mostly? Responding in abstracts rather than specifics is a classic tell. (abstracts are unchanging and can be your actual town thoughts, after all)

Unvote Vote seol

[chamber]

No.

[chamber]

Discussing things with you seems like it would just annoy me, so I'm not going to, hence my first response being dismissive.

[chamber]

Your Chamber vote is pretty good though. The only thing I have agreed with so far with him was his criticisms of post #54.

I've made like 3 points this game, and I'm pretty sure you've agreed with 2 of them, not 1.

[chamber]

You can make links to specific posts using the

Code: Select all

[post]

tag.

Post 117
This is an example
117

Code: Select all

[post=117][/post]
[post=117]This is an example[/post]
[post]117[/post]

[chamber]

You've become a senile old man, time to switch to grey splinter.

[chamber]

I wont construct a list for him, but there are a couple obvious standouts for me, and there is also an obvious divide between those that were actively recruited because they were respected in their day, and those that were simply still around (which isn't to say that actively playing for 6-10 years isn't it's own selection pressure, but then most of that class wasn't active the whole time~).

[chamber]

I still have tigris as a scum suspect, but I have no experience with tigris, and it easily could be a matter of style clouding my reasoning, as I myself pointed out and as you acknowledged. It -could- have been me laying the ground work to back off the wagon if it didn't come together, but it did come together and I backed off anyway. I actually know and respect Seol's play, and its because of that respect that I'm more comfortable voting for him when I see him do something that stands out.

[chamber]

It's incredibly severe in its wording for page 2 ("screams scum")

This is also odd. What does it being page 2 have to do with anything?

[chamber]

Like, individual points giving me different gut scummieness reads are going to give me the same feelings independent of when they are said (Not to be confused with independent of context~).

It would be odd to claim that I had an extremely strong scum read on her that early, but I think that's the opposite of what I actually said.

[chamber]

VitR challenged him on this and he defended his position on two occasions,

How is the frequency with which I stand by my statements a viable metric for the strength of my read? The only thing that measures is how often I'm questioned on them.

[chamber]

How often does something posted on Page 2 give that strong of scum feeling to you?

Fairly often? I find scum are most prone to making mistakes when there is no set statusquo for how they should be acting or reacting to things. The beginning of day 1 is such a time.

But if we're being honest about things, I'd venture that a majority of players here are prone to (over)use of rhetoric.

Rhetoric, as a tool for discovering peoples alignments, its of very limited value. They should be making a conscious effort to lay off it.

[chamber]

Not only does he keep his tunnel, but just look at that first sentence. "Chamber's alignment is farily obvious". So why not vote him if you agree with him?

This was a joke by him, he was being selective. He meant that I'm obvious town, not obvious scum.

[chamber]

Back in Post 47, why did you feel the need to state that your style could be unorthodox as a response to CTD's query about what you wanted to learn from your not-main-bandwagon vote on MafiaSSK? It seems to be a strange non sequitur in light of what CTD was asking.

... really?

[chamber]

This VitR stuff is getting dragged out way too long. I hate when people snipe my questions to other players, so make a conscious effort not to do so myself, but I agreed with VitRs stated thoughts that you are getting so bent over (at least in the general, it lead me to Seol instead of LML) and I suspected many others did too, including most of those with me on Seol.

[chamber]

VitR, you should come over to Seol.

[chamber]

Who here has/remembers experience with Green Crayons? He's doing this thing where hes active and rereading but only reading things at a superficial level and that just seems contradictory to me.

[chamber]

VitR

Nat, you should come over to Seol.

[chamber]

Incidentally, I am SUPER DUPER AMUSED that people are crying foul at MafiaSSK's "big wagons good" theory, when

at the time he referred to my wagon as "almighty" he jumped AWAY from it, thereby creating a greater spread of votes.

Like, this wagon is legit based on nothing SSK did to actually hurt the game, and just on his theory crafting.

It's the beginning of the game, voting based on "theory crafting" is superior to randomly. We will gain more insight into the game with long bandwagons, determined very arbitrarily for the most part, and the quality of which will shape the outcome of the rest of the game.

This is a scum post.

[chamber]

This is insulting. If you don't want to read the game, please replace out. There are others who would be happy to take your slot.

Things are only insulting if you want them to be. There are perfectly harmless ways to interpret what he said. The most likely being that he didn't have the drive to catch up in that moment and intended to focus more on interactions going forward.

FoS: Albert B. Rampage. May switch my vote soon.

Why did you feel the need to telegraph a potential vote change?

[chamber]

I feel like I've gotten a lot better since I last played with most of you (perhaps untrue~) and because of that I'm trying not to hold MafiaSSK to my memory of him. With that said, if I were going only off my memory of his play, he would be the weakest player in this game. Beyond that, if he had done anything I found remarkable, I would have remarked on it.

[chamber]

Can you explain your motivation behind breaking down the wagons as you chose to?

[chamber]

@chamber: Still expecting an answer to my question about ABR.

And that's rather silly of you.

[chamber]

Expecting an answer that's not coming doesn't seem -not- silly?

[chamber]

chamber, how do you read LML's recent posts? I need a second opinion.

I'm not really sure how I feel. There have certainly been some things that bothered me. I've refrained from speaking about them because I'm hoping town LML will self correct when/if he stops being pressured so much.

[chamber]

I was starting to get worried about mbl, but I like his tigris comment enough.

[chamber]

Even assuming I did believe there are a few "weak" players in the game, then if a "weak" player is scum, pretty much the only way they are going to get lynched is if they are attacked by the other "strong" players.

Its unfair to give this possibility inherently even weight. Its true that in the case of the weak player being scum the strong player would need to attack them to get them lynched, but its also true that when town the weak player is going to make an attractive target for attack. Its more likely that any given player is town than scum, so its still completely fair to treat this as a scum tell, especially when he (and I) don't really see the same scummieness that you did.

[chamber]

Meanwhile, I just wanted to note for the record that CES has implied he thinks chamber is scum, and chamber has implied he thinks ABR is scum, but both appear to be reluctant to elaborate on those suspicions.

I already told you plainly that CES was saying that I was town with that statement. It was more said for comedic effect more than anything else. Stop being so damn boring.

[chamber]

chamber, how do you read LML's recent posts? I need a second opinion.

I'm not really sure how I feel. There have certainly been some things that bothered me. I've refrained from speaking about them because I'm hoping town LML will self correct when/if he stops being pressured so much.

What did you think of his comment about me?

[chamber]

Assuming this game is 6 feet under.

[chamber]

There is an obvious, though weak, answer to that question, are you just hoping he has a better answer?

[chamber]

Where your notes bad before you replaced in? Were they made with the primary intention for your personal use or for display to the thread?

[chamber]

Where your notes bad before you replaced in? Were they made with the primary intention for your personal use or for display to the thread?

made* not bad. <_<.

[chamber]

You keep calling Nat the VI wagon this game, but he wasn't. Nat was never going to get lynched for those votes, they were just forcing him to participate or replace out. The VI wagon this game has been an is on MafiaSSK.

[chamber]

his mirrored my thinking exactly. I'm currently a fan of chamber's play, and have him pro-town.

[chamber]

Consistency is totally a scum tell.

I think saying this, unqualified, when someone is disagreeing isn't likely to help alleviate the confusion. I agree with the meaning of the statement, but its specific types of consistency that are scummy, and those types of consistency are, in ways, a lack of other types of consistency.

Everyone's actions should be reasonably consistent from their POV. So when you say consistency is a scum tell I think you mean one of the following two things:

They generate reads early, and stick with them for too long/ the whole game. Reads should naturally be changing with new info, and humans are biased towards putting more weight on recent events, so reads not changing is weird.

There is always a trail of bread crumbs explaining all of their changes of thought. This trail of thought breadcrumbs should exist for townies, but townies don't always state everyone of their thoughts, it wont be explicit. This is what I think you and yos meant.

[chamber]

I didn't really like the way she suggested chamber might be "TOO chipper".

I'm not going to pretend to be able to read DGB for shit, cause I can't, but she always starts off thinking I'm town then finds reasons to suspect me. This is nothing new.

[chamber]

Bookitty hi! Are you scum?

Hey, Glork! And thank goodness, no.

I think vote count analyses are mostly useful later in the game. However, they are great tools for town because they are based on facts, not theory. While you and I might look at the same VCA and derive different conclusions, we're going to have the same facts. So while I don't agree with LML's vote on Untrod Tripod (try saying that fast, yikes) I don't think LML is scummy for having provided information, arriving at some conclusions and placing a vote based on those conclusions.

@PetroleumJelly

: In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum? I think it would be pretty easy to blend in with the pack and not make too many waves. VCA data is verifiable by town and can be used throughout the game to catch scum, though I think it's really not that useful until later. Why would scum make an effort to tell the truth to town when they could generally just coast? This line of argument seems fabricated and could be used against anyone, town or scum, who put in effort to provide data. To paraphrase chamber's tagline, it's as if you're saying "content is scummy."

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PetroleumJelly

You know my tagline isn't sarcastic right?

[chamber]

I didn't realize boo replaced seol. This is excellent, I don't feel guilty at all over still voting the slot.

[chamber]

Choo choo on the Boo Boo.

[chamber]

I was voting the slot she replaced into, though 466 isn't exactly good.

[chamber]

how is voting a player who "hadn't had any attention whatsoever" mutually exclusive with scum play?

Did you actually think through this question before asking it?

[chamber]

how is voting a player who "hadn't had any attention whatsoever" mutually exclusive with scum play?

It's a stupid question because, short of single-handedly getting multiple scum lynched, no actions are mutually exclusive with scum play. Looking at the game from that perspective is just dumb.

[chamber]

I've been coasting since the week break ended, so my thoughts on him haven't developed much. I found his vote analysis odd in its lack of context, like most of you. But unlike most of you, it seemed very deliberate to me. I assumed it was a play quirk and intend to check his VCA history but have yet to do so.


preview edit: No, it doesn't. You aren't considering the implications of the way you are negating it, which is why I asked what I asked initially.

[chamber]

To phrase it in a way you'll understand, glork basically said 'This isn't evidence that he is scum', and you turned it into 'This is evidence that he is town'.

[chamber]

So we disagree about what Glork basically said.

I think it's clear that Glork basically said that LML's vote of UT is an exception to the general rule that "no actions are mutually exclusive with scum play" -- that is, that Glork basically said that LML's vote of UT is town because scum would not have motivation for taking such action.

If Glork was saying "that isn't evidence that LML is scum," then he would have addressed the aspect of LML's play that people had highlighted as suspicious: using voting patterns out of context. That would be challenging the evidence of whether LML is scum. That is not what Glork did in Post 428.

On the other hand, if Glork was saying "this action is mutually exclusive with scum play," he would have set aside the suspicious aspect of the action particular to the circumstances (Glork did this by setting aside PJ's notation of LML's use of voting patterns without context), and he would have challenged there being any type of scum motivation for the action in the abstract (Glork did this). This would be defining the action, in and of itself, as town.

This is what I don't get about you. You recognize the fact that 'no actions are mutually exclusive with scum play', yet instead of assuming glork isn't a moron, you assume he is one. You've done that multiple times. You did it with me once, only to make the same point I was (the non stupid form of it, unlike you assumed of me) when you reread.

This is an oldy game, for the most part everyone in it is pretty competent, give them the benefit of the doubt when interpreting what they are saying.

[chamber]

chamber, what is your issue with Bookitty? I feel like she's been pretty on the money with her posts about PJ (especially Post 495 is basically exactly why I'm voting PJ).

Confirmation bias. I found her posts weird prior to realizing she replaced seol, and after learning that was just like, eh weird probably means scum then.

[chamber]

I think vote count analyses are mostly useful later in the game. However, they are great tools for town because they are based on facts, not theory. While you and I might look at the same VCA and derive different conclusions, we're going to have the same facts. So while I don't agree with LML's vote on Untrod Tripod (try saying that fast, yikes) I don't think LML is scummy for having provided information, arriving at some conclusions and placing a vote based on those conclusions.

@PetroleumJelly: In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum? I think it would be pretty easy to blend in with the pack and not make too many waves. VCA data is verifiable by town and can be used throughout the game to catch scum, though I think it's really not that useful until later. Why would scum make an effort to tell the truth to town when they could generally just coast? This line of argument seems fabricated and could be used against anyone, town or scum, who put in effort to provide data. To paraphrase chamber's tagline, it's as if you're saying "content is scummy."

She repeats herself a little too much, which I always find suggests nervousness (but town can be intimidated too), but also she's talking about the objective facts in VCA like they matter somehow? Or that it matters that LML was the one to gather the data at least? But the entire game is just disagreeing interpretations about facts. PJ doesn't think 'content is scummy', he thinks this specific implementation of the content is scummy. Its just -odd-.

[chamber]

the whole exchange...made me uncomfortable. If he actually thought Tigris's initial posting was scummy, even if it was only slightly so, then it's weird for him to make basically excuses for keep his vote on Tigris like that. Is there really some line on page 5 where "X is scummy enough for a FOS, but you have to do Y to be scummy enough for a vote?

Isn't this counter to your 'consistency is scummy' theory?

[chamber]

Chamber looks bad for Post 130. It’s like he’s about to approach an actual position on Tigris

The very first sentence is literally an unqualified position on Tigris.

[chamber]

Depends on what you mean by making sense. I can believe it's something he actually thinks.

[chamber]

chamber - this is weak for me. I go back and forth on it; I haven't played with chamber that I remember and I can't get any handle on his playstyle. Some things looked really scummy to me but I can't actually recall them now (I'm sure it's in my PBPA, though, for later.)

This is a pretty big scumtell for me, but at this point I'm so wrapped in confirmation bias, can someone else confirm that they see it?

[chamber]

chamber - this is weak for me. I go back and forth on it; I haven't played with chamber that I remember and I can't get any handle on his playstyle. Some things looked really scummy to me but I can't actually recall them now (I'm sure it's in my PBPA, though, for later.)

This is a pretty big scumtell for me, but at this point I'm so wrapped in confirmation bias, can someone else confirm that they see it?

My first impression, reading that, was "townie trying to get their last words down in writing before they get lynched, without enough time to do a re-reading first". Why, what did you see?

Not remembering the reason you suspect someone. In my experience you are significantly more likely to forget reasons you had to make up than reasons you actually felt and reached yourself.

[chamber]

It's mafiaSSK. I could have told you he wasn't going to finish this game before it started. I think calling his replacement anything but null is simply incorrect.

[chamber]

@Rest of you -> Have you heard of this encryptor before?

Not only have I heard of it, it's been around so long that I couldn't have told you when it was introduced.

Your entire line about what kind of roles/mechanics to expect being based in your memory is flawed though. You wouldn't have seen many day start games, or games with 3week/2week deadlines in 2005/6. There are reasons those things were adopted as common, and there are reasons day talk become common too (It allows an expedited night phase which is when the most down time happens). There is no reason to think it, or other new roles/mechanics couldn't also be included, outside of perhaps patrick's mod meta.

[chamber]

I also pointed out that MafiaSSK has both played and moderated games with Mafia Daytalk very recently

Was he scum in said games? As town you don't always notice things like that post game.

[chamber]

I'm willing to do KK instead of bookitty if it comes to it, but shes still my preferred lynch.

[chamber]

He meant Petroleumjelly.

[chamber]

I'm not going to lynch LML

[chamber]

Vote bookitty

[chamber]

I also think Glork needs a closer look. He's not impressed me so far and he stayed from LML almost all of the day, including with some really bad votes on CES and KK towards the end of the day.

Willing to look at glork too, the entire way the Freudian slip played out didn't ring true to me at all. Everyone's seen town make that (or very similar) mistakes.

Bookitty's looks the worst, and LML seemed hesitant to pursue that wagon all of day 1.

[chamber]

I'm also worried that confirmation bias is a large factor in my suspicion of bookitty, but it's hard to internally audit for that.

Glrok's handling of the 'slip' feels most natural of those that posted around that time and seemed to switch because of it, to me anyway.

[chamber]

Which is why they were killing from that pool too?

[chamber]

I also think Glork needs a closer look. He's not impressed me so far and he stayed from LML almost all of the day, including with some really bad votes on CES and KK towards the end of the day.

Willing to look at glork too, the entire way the Freudian slip played out didn't ring true to me at all. Everyone's seen town make that (or very similar) mistakes.

Bookitty's looks the worst, and LML seemed hesitant to pursue that wagon all of day 1.

The funny thing is, Chamber, I usually am the first person to say "scumslips rarely exist; town say the wrong word all the time," but this one felt different. I'm not sure if that makes me look better or worse by comparison, but I'd like to think that if I were going to tip the scales against LML as his scumbuddy, I'd have done so in a manner that allowed me to gain at least a little town cred. I wasn't a fan of the lynch at any point, and even put LML tentatively in my "won't lynch" category in the last 24-36 hours before deadline.


On another note, Chamber, I'm curious to know how you feel Bookitty/LmL's interactions make them scum together.



VitR should be our lynch today.

In retrospect my post may not have been as coherent as I intended. I meant that I was looking at everyone involved in the Freudian slip votes with more scrutiny, including yourself. I think your specific involvement was probably the least offensive, at least on the surface level. Its bookitty's involvement that bothers me the most, as I attempted to say, but it may not have been clear.

[chamber]

For this to have real force, you would have to compare LML/bookitty interactions with how often LML spoke about every other single player.

(I don't want to do this, because effort, but if you would like to do so I would be interested in what you find.)

This isn't really at all true. Different people should be expected to have different levels of presence in players ISOs. Bookitty was a major discussion point for a lot of yesterday, so the relative absence of her does mean -something-. (Them being scum together isn't the only explanation, but I do think its the cleanest, I'm willing to listen to other proposals).

[chamber]

KK is not scum. I think LML saw him pick up a few votes and just jumped on the opportunity to hopefully swing the direction in someone-not-him.

And that someone wasn't bookitty because?

[chamber]

Please never answer a question I direct towards someone else.

[chamber]

eeeeh.

Vote mathcam

It does explain why LML failed to see that as the VI wagon it was imo.

[chamber]

Also also also, before I forget I want to mention that when I asked UT who he's vote for, he answered "either LML or VitR." UT is absolutely someone I could see naming two buddies in that answer.

I can see him doing that too, but I can also see him just busing 1, and it seems like you are getting a bit ahead of yourself before either VitR or UT flip?

[chamber]

I'm also worried that confirmation bias is a large factor in my suspicion of bookitty, but it's hard to internally audit for that.

Glrok's handling of the 'slip' feels most natural of those that posted around that time and seemed to switch because of it, to me anyway.

How incomprehensible was this post for others?

[chamber]

You aren't being very proactive.

[chamber]

I also think Glork needs a closer look. He's not impressed me so far and he stayed from LML almost all of the day, including with some really bad votes on CES and KK towards the end of the day.

Willing to look at glork too, the entire way the Freudian slip played out didn't ring true to me at all. Everyone's seen town make that (or very similar) mistakes.

Bookitty's looks the worst, and LML seemed hesitant to pursue that wagon all of day 1.

I meant this post *sweat*.

[chamber]

You have nothing to be sorry for, entirely my fault.

I'm no better at reading DGB than she is at reading me (which is to say not well at all). We just use completely opposite ways of interacting.

[chamber]

There was like 0 chance of a no-lynch actually happening though? I can't remember the last time I've seen a deadline caused no-lynch.

[chamber]

How did you get roleblocker from hickory dickory dock?

[chamber]

@Mathcam

: Could you possibly make cases in the normal way, rather than using some arbitrary method that I suspect only makes sense to you? Right now, it looks like you're moving people around randomly with +1s and -1s but you don't connect those to any specific events. If you're awarding me a shiny gold star, I want to know what I'm getting it for. I'm not just talking about the long series of numbers recently posted; I'm talking about the lack of reason given for most of your reads so far.

Right now it looks like your figures can mean just about anything you want them to. Saying your figures are based on gut is the opposite of logic and reason. Just using numbers doesn't make it logical. I could give ABR a +1 because I like his avatar, or DGB a -1 because she didn't bring me cookies. If you don't put any reasons down (and I really don't see specific reasons in your posting) then it looks like you're keeping all your options open.

Can you give more detailed reads or support for your up-and-down votes, please?

And you don't think this is a scum post glork?

[chamber]

But not really, right?

[chamber]

@Mathcam

: Could you possibly make cases in the normal way, rather than using some arbitrary method that I suspect only makes sense to you? Right now, it looks like you're moving people around randomly with +1s and -1s but you don't connect those to any specific events. If you're awarding me a shiny gold star, I want to know what I'm getting it for. I'm not just talking about the long series of numbers recently posted; I'm talking about the lack of reason given for most of your reads so far.

Right now it looks like your figures can mean just about anything you want them to. Saying your figures are based on gut is the opposite of logic and reason. Just using numbers doesn't make it logical. I could give ABR a +1 because I like his avatar, or DGB a -1 because she didn't bring me cookies. If you don't put any reasons down (and I really don't see specific reasons in your posting) then it looks like you're keeping all your options open.

Can you give more detailed reads or support for your up-and-down votes, please?

And you don't think this is a scum post glork?

She's calling mathcam out right after he called her townish in his points system. That doesn't really make sense if she's scum trying to stay alive.

Her making the post as either alignment requires a lack of attention, so I don't find that remotely convincing.

[chamber]

inHim's entry into the game doesn't inspire any confidence.

Do you think that makes him scum?

[chamber]

Full disclosure; I was only isoing LmL, I really do need to do a full reread.

Are you trying to get a reaction out of me here? Trying to fish for my role? This is the scummiest post of the match thus far. FoS: GC The only reason my vote isn't changing is because I'm nearly positive that PJ will flip red. I'm not nearly as sure about you yet.

This stood out to me at a gut level, something just feels off about it

Here's who I have null on: Porochaz, CTD, CES, VitR, GC, Yos2, BooKitty (I feel like that wagon is incredibly manufactured... similar to mine), Kublai Khan

and then I noticed that this is pretty inconsistent with his early statement. I need to look at why he'd change that strategically, or if he perhaps just forgot.

[chamber]

inHim's entry into the game doesn't inspire any confidence.

Do you think that makes him scum?

I'm not sure I've had the pleasure of playing much with VitaminR.

Can people

please

stop answering question I direct at other people.

[chamber]

how has undos post not gotten more criticism?

[chamber]

how has undos post not gotten more criticism?

Same reasons you didn't criticize it?

But my post was criticizing it?

[chamber]

how has undos post not gotten more criticism?

Same reasons you didn't criticize it?

But my post was criticizing it?

Was it? You're just sorta announcing that it deserves it. Not actually bringing any criticism forward. It's like you're criticizing everyone except for undo.

I was criticizing everyone that posted in that interim as well as undo, yes, I'm efficient like that.

[chamber]

how has undos post not gotten more criticism?

I don't see how it's that bad. It's a lot of work to do and he's got to know no one's necessarily going to think him any more town for it.

Its busy work that is independent of alignment, LML did some of that too with his VCA, but my real issue is that any analysis based on that is going to just be based on an arbitrary abstraction of the actual facts.

[chamber]

I really wish the leading wagon was on someone other than DGB, not because I think shes town, but because I find her so hard to read that I don't find it useful in figuring out the rest of the game ._.

[chamber]

What about chamber?

I really don't get why you keep bringing this up as an option. I think you're town primarily because we've agreed on most points this game. You've even used that as a reason to not suspect CES, so your continued half attacks very much confuse me.

[chamber]

By "last days of health" I mean RELATIVE health because I'll never be as "healthy" as I am now ever again.

I hate to bring this stuff into a GAME but this is not the first time players are puzzled at my change in demeanor.

If it's no longer fun, then it's a waste of my time, I should be doing something that is fun instead. Like the Dead QT.

Before this post I thought the previous one was just a metaphor for this game. I'm sorry to hear you aren't doing so well. I hope it all works out.

[chamber]

vote undo

[chamber]

CES's vote for undo was completely alignment neutral, I could have told you he would do that before he did.

[chamber]

townish I guess? I don't have a particularly well developed opinion on him.

[chamber]

I know its the 2007 style, but you guys know that quote striping is extremely hard to read right?

[chamber]

I really dislike that post.

[chamber]

The one right above mine.

[chamber]

Detracting from the undo wagon would likely just end in DGB getting lynched, but he's a serious consideration for a later date now, I want to review his older play.

[chamber]

I want my analysis to be glorified.

I'm sure you do. I'm sure everyone wants their own analysis to be glorified. Its not for the best of the whole town though.

[chamber]

With that definition of a case I hope he lists everyone. What a terrible way to play.

[chamber]

7.) chamber, what do you think of Porochaz's Post #1212?

Very little.

[chamber]

I just never find posts like that very useful or convincing, I just gloss over when reading them a lot of the time unless there is something particularly egregious in them.

[chamber]

I need to do my due diligence before I vote for PJ.

[chamber]

I am a Mason and I am partnered with undo.

Yeaaaah. Did you bread crumb that anywhere?

[chamber]

I'm going to look back at you guys to see if this makes sense, you understand why I'd be incredulous I hope.

[chamber]

Do you have day talk?

[chamber]

In patrick games one group having or not having day talk doesn't necessarily effect other groups (I've been in a game of his that had both a day and night neighborhood sets).

At a glance I see 0 interactions between you and undo. If this is untrue can you point me to one you remember? If this is true, why haven't you been treating a known protown entity as more of a sounding board for your theories?

[chamber]

Why do you think someone would possibly counterclaim?

[chamber]

Unvote, vote Untrod Tripod

This is where my mind immediately went if I'm to assume the claim is true. I'm curious why Glork went to MBL.

[chamber]

And then there was this post, where CES's scum list was basically Seol+the 3 most townie-looking people in the game at the time, which was just bizzare:

You've misinterpreted both of those posts from CES if you think he was talking about scum reads in either.

[chamber]

Both chamber and mathcam wanting a UT lynch now makes me think that UT is town. Mathcam/everyone else, what are your thoughts on Porochaz? He has received very little attention in this entire game.

I didn't say that I wanted a UT lynch. I'm fairly sure I don't actually. All I said was that it was first instinct to go to UT if both Undo and PJ are town. His votes on both those wagons were fairly questionable.

[chamber]

And then there was this post, where CES's scum list was basically Seol+the 3 most townie-looking people in the game at the time, which was just bizzare:

You've misinterpreted both of those posts from CES if you think he was talking about scum reads in either.

Those first two posts, I assumed he was saying they were town reads, in a fairly confusing way. The scum list I quoted there, though, looked really weird.

I don't think he was saying tigris was town. I think he was saying that pursing someone that's easy to read prematurely is silly because they'll make their alignment known with time.

[chamber]

chamber and VitaminR, explain why you think that CES saying scum team: DGB/Sotty/ABR/Green Crayons is his confusing way of giving a town read.

Neither of us think that. We were both talking about the two quotes above that. I missread what yos had said.

[chamber]

Glork what do you currently think of UT?

[chamber]

I believe it was you who said that reading concise players was about reading them in context, not in isolation, did you do so when rereading CES?

[chamber]

My question was about you, not him.

[chamber]

I wasn't calling LML town there? I did have a pretty null read on him. I was just stating that I expected an LML that was town to correct his mistakes given time (or rather given a lack of pressure). A variant of the point I thought CES was making about Tigris.

CES and me can be buddy buddy. He can follow my votes and he can not, I can follow his and I can not. It depends. This is on the higher end of what I'd expect though.

[chamber]

CES, what do you think of your brother?

[chamber]

Glork what do you currently think of UT?

[chamber]

My main issue with the mathcam wagon is that our claimed masons are on the counter wagon.

[chamber]

@chamber, I can't really tell how you currently feel about cam and Glork. You're still voting undo, which I guess means you're not drawn to either wagon?

I think both wagons have positives and negatives. I'm still leaning cam over glork. I haven't voted yet partly because I feel like I largely caused the swings to undo and PJ and wanted to see how things developed without my input and partly because I don't definitively know which I'd choose, and any votes at this point make one much more likely than the other.

[chamber]

Vote mathcam

[chamber]

Are we sure Patrick didn't pull a fast one on us and use Masons from circa 2005?

[chamber]

I don't seriously think you aren't mason's at this point. I just thought your last post was awful.

Because you claiming masons with another scum suspect of mine made me wonder if I wasn't just right about both of you and if it was a gambit, both of you seemed to be in terrible shape before hand if scum so it wasn't risking much.

Despite MBL's analysis leading to him concluding that cam was town, it reinforced my opinion that LML acted differently towards SSK on multiple occasions.

[chamber]

Because you claiming masons with another scum suspect of mine

made me wonder if I wasn't just right about both of you

and if it was a gambit, both of you seemed to be in terrible shape before hand if scum so it wasn't risking much.

Given that you never expressed any suspicion of me whatsoever, this is not looking particularly honest. The only suspicion you came close to was your "dislike" of me "detracting" from the undo wagon in favor of DrippingGoofball.

Why did you think I was scum?

What about my last post (or posts) is "awful"?

Unfortunately I can't instantly update all of my past conclusions and knowledge based on knew knowledge. That process takes time.

Do you honestly think I'm scum trying to setup a mislynch on masons?

[chamber]

Do you honestly think I'm scum trying to setup a mislynch on masons?

I'm

trying to decide if you're scum, which involves actually trying to extract opinions and reasoning from you. So again:

Why was my post (or posts) awful?

When you said you "wondered if you were just right about me," I assume this meant

you

thought I was scum before I claimed Mason. Why?

I'm not interested in convincing you that I'm town. You or me will get nightkilled before it matters.

[chamber]

I'm putting my energy into keeping up with the thread and rereading the players that I can actually effect the lynch of. Its looking like I'm going to have to choose one of glork and DGB and that's not a choice I'm happy that I have to make, as you pointed out earlier.

You want me to explain that, I'll do so tomorrow if we are both alive, which I think will be unlikely anyway.

[chamber]

Glad we are finally on the same page.

[chamber]

Just found out my fathers in the hospital so I wont be around for deadline.

uh

Vote glork?

[chamber]

Do both kills feel remarkably odd to anyone else? They are very very safe.

[chamber]

I mean CTD and shanba not CTD and UT, I'm also assuming UT got viged.

[chamber]

Vote sotty

[chamber]

Isn't safe good for them?

I wouldn't expect them to be making kills that are -bad- for them, so yes? I expect them to be making the kills that are best for them though, and them making safe kills suggest they don't feel very threatened by the more vocal players, either because they are wrong, or because they are the scum themselves.

[chamber]

Yos putting Poro in the obv town slot reminds me:

@Poro

Yesterday at deadline you weren't active in thread, but invited me to play skype mafia. Why weren't you active in thread?

[chamber]

I was easily on more than 2 wagons, I don't know which you are using.

[chamber]

Is your scumputer crap?

Yes. You can see me tearing it a part in oldy1, though she seems to have incorporated some of my criticisms from then.

[chamber]

If you really are town and I'm caught then I would be astonished.

What?

[chamber]

They aren't, but I expect you to be annoying about it, especially now. So no? I don't really care if you think I'm scum or not.

[chamber]

It would help if I knew what my stances were.

[chamber]

pj is just being petty

In his defense I'm being as petty, his just comes with greater consequences.

[chamber]

My biggest problem with chamber is that his list of suspicions is too short.

I'm sorry that 2 of them turned out to be masons and I haven't put in the time since to figure things out properly?

[chamber]

My biggest problem with chamber is that his list of suspicions is too short.

I'm sorry that 2 of them turned out to be masons and I haven't put in the time since to figure things out properly?

Do you know why you're voting for Sotty at least? When do you plan on putting in the work?

Of course I know why I'm voting for sotty.

[chamber]

My biggest problem with chamber is that his list of suspicions is too short.

I'm sorry that 2 of them turned out to be masons and I haven't put in the time since to figure things out properly?

Do you know why you're voting for Sotty at least? When do you plan on putting in the work?

Of course I know why I'm voting for sotty.

Why? And why aren't you asking my other question?

I was hoping to implicitly answer it by coming to the thread with some conclusions because I was actively working on figuring things out, but the game is still a mess to me.

[chamber]

You're in LYLO with CES and VitaminR. Who do you vote and why?

3 player lylo?

[chamber]

VitR. Though I think it's more likely that I get lynched in that case.

[chamber]

VitR. Though I think it's more likely that I get lynched in that case.

Why VitaminR?

Mostly constraints of your scenario. Though again, if I make it to lylo with those 2 I suspect its because they are both scum.

[chamber]

The play of the masons there is just objectively bad though?

[chamber]

What did you think of his comment about me?

I remember I never replied to this. What were you referring to?

I wish I had followed up on this :/

[chamber]

I don't have time to metadive yos right now and seem to remember my gut being unreliable at reading him. Does anyone else have a bad taste from some of his recent posts?

[chamber]

VitaminR is using a lot of AtE that I'm obliged to disregard.

No hes not? I don't think hes actually used any?

[chamber]

False.

I'm willing to believe he's used some. It didn't stand out though. He absolutely can't be characterized as using a lot of it though. That's just an outright lie.

[chamber]

Go ahead and quote them.

[chamber]

If you don't want to that's fine, just don't expect your assertion to mean anything to me.

[chamber]

I don't have time to metadive yos right now and seem to remember my gut being unreliable at reading him. Does anyone else have a bad taste from some of his recent posts?

...because I'm trying to figure out VitR's alignment?

It doesn't look like you are trying to figure out his alignment, it looks like you are trying to smear him.

[chamber]

I've said quite clearly why I'm not voting for Yos yet. Piss off.

[chamber]

I wont apologize for being abrasive in general (piss off is hardly foul language) but I will apologize for being abrasive in this instant because I misread your intent. Sorry.

[chamber]

instance*

[chamber]

just because of his repeated appeals to emotion.

I still don't see it, can you quote what responses of his you felt were ate?

[chamber]

I'm going to keep making my case against him until he starts to make sense

I think this is my issue. You aren't really asking questions. It doesn't seem like you are seeking to learn more about him. You are just continuously throwing your case against him until he or it(in your opinion) breaks. He's explained himself. Do you expect his explanation to change? Presumably it wont, so all you are doing by constantly restating your case is attempting to make him look bad, to get others to vote for him, but its really not presented like that, and you didn't admit to that either with your 'because I'm trying to figure out his alignment' remark.

[chamber]

There is no way that LML didn't include a buddy in his list

I think having 100% confidence in that is likely wrong, I'd put it somewhere around 90%. Which certainly means auto lynch from that pool when its down to 2 names, but at 3 it's not all that much better than random.

[chamber]

ok, I'm sold.

Vote STD

[chamber]

a) lynching people gives us valuable information
b) I can only vote for one person.

Of course the posts on their own hold up to this, but its the pattern of activity that looks bad, debunk that pattern, don't explain the individual posts.

[chamber]

Vote prozac

[chamber]

Vote prozac

Not that I don't totally agree with this, but reasons?

I didn't like that he was willing to play skype mafia rather than fret about the deadline yesterDay, as I already brought up.

This one is harder to explain but his recent posts don't sound like they are scumhunting as much as that hes looking for things he can critique or comment about?

[chamber]

@Chamber: Basically same question, but I want to expand it to include CES too. I'm really tired and I might be misremembering the exact reply, but I remember asking you about CES and you saying that he was basically in line with what you know as his town play and that maybe he was a little more sheepy.

Is that still true for you? Do you feel you have a solid read on CES or VitaminR? If so, what is your read on them at this point?

I don't think I'm very good at reading vitamin. I'm perpetually paranoid about him because his scum game is very good. He was right when he said that his buddying of me did him no favors.

I'm historically nearly perfect at reading CES. I was wrong in the last game we were in together though so I haven't been throwing that around this game.

I think both him and CES have a tendency to be mislynched as town though. The town being sure they are scum just makes me think the town is more clueless not less.

[chamber]

The town being sure they are scum just makes me think the town is more clueless not less.

In short, I don't think -I- suck at reading vitamin, I think everyone including me does.

[chamber]

Unvote Vote sotty

[chamber]

If she's scum, she's done an amazing job of faking evolving suspicions.

Which read progressions in particular make you say this?

[chamber]

We're lynching Sotty today and VitaminR tomorrow.

Much as I like mathcam's reasoning, I'm going to sheep PJ on this and hold off on voting Sotty, at least for now.

PJ's reasoning is what in your opinion?

[chamber]

In fact, we should probably just do the exact opposite of what PJ wants, seeing how his reads have turned out this game.

??

He was right about LML and all his other reads are untested, unless I'm missing something?

[chamber]

I knew where it was. I was confirming that you thought a single point of meta was a sufficient reason to call someone town.

[chamber]

Which problems specifically are those?

[chamber]

Somehow Yos magically becomes SUPER SCUM if Sotty flips scum, but I'm still middle of the pack?

You think she's lying about her updated scumputer results? they are objective, you can go check.

[chamber]

What? It's most certainly objective. I don't think anyone has argued otherwise. Useful? I don't think so, but undeniably objective.

[chamber]

Yes, but thats irrelevant to whether -those- numbers could be reached by you. The wagons she's working from and her methods are public knowledge.

[chamber]

nobody actually thinks I'm scum

You are probably somewhere around number 3 on my list?

[chamber]

My reservation with voting yos over sotty is that I feel that will just make both wagons less viable than DGB's.

[chamber]

The only way I can see PJ being sure for reasons more than a read is if he's not actually a mason, and spotted sotty and undo breadcrumbing their masonry. If that's what happened, feel free to claim it and point to the crumb? Otherwise I don't give your opinion more weight than I do my own.

[chamber]

If she's scum, she's done an amazing job of faking evolving suspicions.

Which read progressions in particular make you say this?

I don't think MBL's been around since I asked this but I don't want to forget about it regardless.

[chamber]

My question to MrBuddyLee on Sotty7 was to see if I could get reasoning from MrBuddyLee (I remember him being tight-lipped in the past which makes him difficult for me to read) on a player I would normally have trouble getting a read on.

[chamber]

That's certainly 2/3rds of the people already voting Sotty that are also willing to vote Yos. We need to get more than that to lynch someone though, creating another wagon of 4 and 2 instead of 1 of 6 isn't helping anything.

[chamber]

Ok bud. I think I was one of the first people to bring up Yos as a serious scum consideration. And if I see the votes on him instead of her, I will move to him. But sotty is higher than number 3, at least until PJ explicitly claims masons with her or my reading of their isos sufficiently points to that fact, AND the one with the more viable wagon. I think I've even used the same reasoning earlier in the game.

[chamber]

I don't think me voting for Yos is going to do anything to persuade PJ or Undo, heh.

[chamber]

Ok? Do I seem like the kind of person to give into pressure like that? I'll vote on my timeline, not yours.

[chamber]

VitR isn't getting lynched, pick a real wagon.

[chamber]

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if he was scum, I just kind of gave up on trying to read him at some point because it was painful and there were other options. >_>.

[chamber]

I think I can read demotivated Albert fairly effectively because me and him get demotivated over the same things, I can tell when its honest. Invested Albert is an enigma though.

[chamber]

Here's who I am leaning scum on: UT, Mathcam, STD, Sotty

This part of the list has been discussed a fair bit today, mostly by DGB, and is a key reason to suspect sotty.

[chamber]

Unvote Vote Yos

[chamber]

end of D1 start of D2 how on Earth did chamber and dgb not catch SO MUCH FLAK for preferring a no lynch to an LML lynch?

That's not what I said? If it were closer to deadline I would have voted LML. I knew that was the last time I'd be online though, and at that point so much pressure over a Freudian slip, which I've seen go both ways, felt off. I was leaving it to the rest of the town to figure it out and making it clear that I wouldn't be around to vote.

[chamber]

The only person with a rcok-solid townread on CES is vitR I think?

[chamber]

MBL, the question of the hour, do you want to vote for Yosarian, or do you want to vote for DGB?

@Porochaz

Notice how my approach involved 1) defusing the Sotty bandwagon, 2) actively moving players on Sotty’s bandwagon to a new player that hasn’t seen pressure and 3) keeping Sotty in a suspicious position that would decrease her likelihood of being NK’d.

Let’s compare that with your approach of sitting on your hand and see who is more effective.

At least it was better than me. I honestly thought PJ was just being an egotistical dick. Which makes me the egotistical dick .

[chamber]

I knew where it was. I was confirming that you thought a single point of meta was a sufficient reason to call someone town.

If PJ thinks he has a read on Sotty, and PJ is confirmed town, then, yeah, that's good enough for me to at least not want to lynch Sotty today. Obviously I'd still lynch her if it was that or no-lynch, but I'd rather not.

This is a pretty big component of my Yos suspicion. He took the sotty read for clearly weak reasons at face value way too easily. So the question is did he realize PJ was softclaiming masons with her all the way back there. Or did he just assume PJ had good reasons because he knew sotty was town.

[chamber]

I knew where it was. I was confirming that you thought a single point of meta was a sufficient reason to call someone town.

If PJ thinks he has a read on Sotty, and PJ is confirmed town, then, yeah, that's good enough for me to at least not want to lynch Sotty today. Obviously I'd still lynch her if it was that or no-lynch, but I'd rather not.

This is a pretty big component of my Yos suspicion. He took the sotty read for clearly weak reasons at face value way too easily. So the question is did he realize PJ was softclaiming masons with her all the way back there. Or did he just assume PJ had good reasons because he knew sotty was town.

I seriously want outside input. I realized the reason PJ was giving was horseshit but I thought it was PJ just being bad because I was biased by prior interactions today. Is Yos reaching the conclusion at that point believable? Had anyone else?

[chamber]

I didn't really like the way she suggested chamber might be "TOO chipper".

I'm not going to pretend to be able to read DGB for shit, cause I can't, but she always starts off thinking I'm town then finds reasons to suspect me. This is nothing new.

You have nothing to be sorry for, entirely my fault.

I'm no better at reading DGB than she is at reading me (which is to say not well at all). We just use completely opposite ways of interacting.

I really wish the leading wagon was on someone other than DGB, not because I think shes town, but because I find her so hard to read that I don't find it useful in figuring out the rest of the game ._.

My reservation with voting yos over sotty is that I feel that will just make both wagons less viable than DGB's.

This guy literally refuses to give a read on DGB all game and then uses that as a reason to oppose lynching her

I'm not actually all the opposed to a lynch on her. I think a vig on her would be excellent. I'd just rather people I actively suspect get lynched?