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Post Post #1000 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 3:11 am

Post by Not_Mafia »

In post 999, Thor665 wrote:
In post 997, Aquanim wrote:Not_Mafia hadn't said anything about your day 2 play before #830. Why not go look yourself?
:neutral:
I did.
I found post 824.
Your move?
In post 824, Not_Mafia wrote:I'm phone posting but my reads are pretty much the same as yesterday. Aquanim and BBT are townreads, elk is a lesser townread, mostly residual townvibes from Tynn, my read on Knell himself is null, the only thing I haven't liked by him specifically is him saying "Purpose of this?" In regards to what I said about Hemp's potential slip, but my scumread on Hemp has that slot tainted in my mind. Thor looks worse to me for his disappearance late day 1 and my read on you is... paranoid, is the best word I can think of. As in, I have no idea what to think of that townslip

One thing I find noteworthy about the final VC however, is that for BBT to be town, both scum were on the Beli wagon, scum will generally not have both people on the lynch wagon d1. That's not a hard and fast rule however and I do still think that BBT is town, it's just something that caught my attention
I don't see any comment on your d2 play
Also, what is NM doing? Worst play I’ve ever seen.
I can't remember the last N_M post that wasn't bland, unimaginative and lame. Some shitposters are at least somewhat funny. You are the epitomy of the type of poster that nobody would miss if you were to suddenly disappear. You never add anything of value.
I'm guessing you haven't read the game and probably never will? Why even sign up to play?
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Post Post #1001 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 3:34 am

Post by Aquanim »

In post 999, Thor665 wrote: Let me get this straight, you, as, whatever silly game count title you have, fail to understand that *prior* to this I had aggressively and wholeheartedly been pushing the BBT wagon, and had failed to acheive it - then, I was supposed to, while BBT was lurking and doing nothing new, create, somehow, a better case out of wholecloth and present that to people, and failure to do so makes me a bad player and says nothing about how people were ignoring a perfectly already functional case or that people, for reasons beyond me, prefered to try to lynch Madonna or Belli - nd *on top of that* you're not going to wonder why scum bothered to shift gears if BBT was town? Maybe you should read some more to see if I have a point? Or tell me which wagon was the less bad one on offer? Because as far as I can tell the other offer was Madonna, who I called town and was correct on, so...?
I'm not saying you're a bad player. I'm saying that fading into the background while the wagon you were responsible for fades away, meaning that you looked dynamic day 1 but didn't have to wear the consequences of a mislynch (if BBT is such), would fit a scum agenda very nicely. I'm still thinking over whether I believe that you as a townie would drop the ball on the BBT wagon as completely as you did on the grounds that "I've done all I can". I also think you could have argued against the Madonna wagon more effectively than:
In post 567, Thor665 wrote: Yes, I could easily go into a post by post and dismiss your case - I just don't see a value to it and the idea of the conversation bores me. I have things I'd rather do than set myself up as a defender of a slot I'm not actually town reading. Let's just leave it at "I am still unimpressed by the Madonna case", okay?
In fact, here you said you weren't actually town-reading the Madonna slot. How is this "Madonna, who I called town and was correct on"?

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by "scum bothering to shift gears if BBT was town". Can you explain this? Who do you think the scum are if BBT is town?
It very much matters if he takes notes, because unless he takes notes there was nothing to get confused over between the two theory sets of notes. And if no theory set of notes were mixed up then he is a proven liar which would (wait for it) confirm him as scum. Therefore, the question of if he has actual notes matters a great deal. Why are you so obstructionist on this point for no apparent reason? (that is an invitation to explain the reasoning more)
Like I said, I find it hard to believe that Tr1ckster would not take notes of some kind as scum, if he does as town. His reluctance to post them has multiple possible explanations, some town and some scum.

I am dubious (or "obstructionist", as you put it) on this point because I've seen townies get caught on not-reads-related "scumslips" like this before. It's more of a "on general principles" thing.
In post 997, Aquanim wrote:Not_Mafia hadn't said anything about your day 2 play before #830. Why not go look yourself?
:neutral:
I did.
I found post 824.
Your move?
Post 824 was only talking about your day 1 play, not your day 2 play. Your move?


Next question: If you want my vote for BBT today, start by convincing me that Elk is likely enough town that he's not worth my vote. In particular I'd like to see an argument that isn't based on BBT's alignment.
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Post Post #1002 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 3:52 am

Post by Zaicon »

Vote Count 2.7


Tr1ckster (2):
Not_Mafia, theelkspeaks
theelkspeaks (2):
Aquanim, BlueBloodedToffee
BlueBloodedToffee (2):
Tr1ckster, Thor665
Not_Mafia (1):
Knell

No Vote (0):


With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

Deadline is Monday, May 19 at 8:30 AM CDT, which is in (expired on 2014-05-19 08:30:00).
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Post Post #1003 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 4:04 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1000, Not_Mafia wrote:I don't see any comment on your d2 play
:neutral:
In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:I'm saying that fading into the background while the wagon you were responsible for fades away, meaning that you looked dynamic day 1 but didn't have to wear the consequences of a mislynch (if BBT is such), would fit a scum agenda very nicely.
How does that make any sense if my goal Day 2 is to...y'know, lynch BBT? Almost as though I feel it's the right choice and maybe a new day will help make it happen? I don't even understand where you're coming from here - look at all of the play, you're taking miniscule slices and then applying weird paranoia to them and then asking me to respond. It's weird.
In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by "scum bothering to shift gears if BBT was town". Can you explain this? Who do you think the scum are if BBT is town?
Okay, let's just go with something;

BlueBloodedToffee (3): Thor665, Knell, Aquanim
Madonna (3): Not_Mafia, BlueBloodedToffee, Tr1ckster

Competing wagons.
Elk eventually does the tiebreaker by voting Madonna (who is town) Knell seals it away by voting Trick and leaving the BBT wagon.
How many scum do you think are on the BBT wagon? I've got it at 0, personally.
With Elk in the mix, what's your take on the Madonna (confirmed town) wagon? I've got BBT, Not_Mafia, and Trickster all as questionable.
Why do I have one wagon with a lot of scumspects on it and one with none?
Hint: I think there's a reason one of them grew and stayed in activity and the other died.
In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:Like I said, I find it hard to believe that Tr1ckster would not take notes of some kind as scum, if he does as town. His reluctance to post them has multiple possible explanations, some town and some scum.
:neutral:
In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:I am dubious (or "obstructionist", as you put it) on this point because I've seen townies get caught on not-reads-related "scumslips" like this before. It's more of a "on general principles" thing.
Nice.
So just stay quiet and stop defending him so strongly then. At least wait to see if he can produce gak and if a wagon forms before random defending a guy because "once upon a time I've seen this" Because, y'know "once upon a time scum have lied and been caught" so we have equal value at the moment and that he's gone so long without showing the notes is rather skeevy - he hasn't even managed his paraphrase. I don't get this defense and I am not a fan of it.
In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:Post 824 was only talking about your day 1 play, not your day 2 play. Your move?
Are you serious? I said two people had attacked me and that he had held off doing so until after that fact - you even agree this is happening but are debating as to whether I need to show it's about my Day 2 play or not. This is an amazing hair-splitting quibble. Please justify its purpose.
In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:Next question: If you want my vote for BBT today, start by convincing me that Elk is likely enough town that he's not worth my vote. In particular I'd like to see an argument that isn't based on BBT's alignment.
I'd like to see the Elk case suggesting he's scum - give me something to disprove, don't ask me to prove a negative.
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Post Post #1004 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 10:27 am

Post by Tr1ckster »

@N_M why have your recent posts been more commenting then legitimately asking questions?

Why do you expect us to meta you? Why don't you think you should just show us why you're town in this game?

@Elk why do you never ask questions?

@BBT

I don't believe permareads are a good idea. Do you believe scum incapable of playing as N_M did?

Thor, I'm pretty sure, is town.

Knell, too, is town, I think.

I'm sorry I haven't posted much recently. I got back from the hospital last night and was too tired to catch up.
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Post Post #1005 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 10:34 am

Post by Not_Mafia »

The topic of discussion was my meta so I provided my meta. That last question is just a ridiculously loaded question
Also, what is NM doing? Worst play I’ve ever seen.
I can't remember the last N_M post that wasn't bland, unimaginative and lame. Some shitposters are at least somewhat funny. You are the epitomy of the type of poster that nobody would miss if you were to suddenly disappear. You never add anything of value.
I'm guessing you haven't read the game and probably never will? Why even sign up to play?
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Post Post #1006 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 10:38 am

Post by theelkspeaks »

In post 1004, Tr1ckster wrote:@N_M why have your recent posts been more commenting then legitimately asking questions?

Why do you expect us to meta you? Why don't you think you should just show us why you're town in this game?

@Elk why do you never ask questions?

@BBT

I don't believe permareads are a good idea. Do you believe scum incapable of playing as N_M did?

Thor, I'm pretty sure, is town.

Knell, too, is town, I think.

I'm sorry I haven't posted much recently. I got back from the hospital last night and was too tired to catch up.
Because the assumed answer to "Are you scum?" is "no" regardless of the truth.

On a more relevant note, I ask questions to probe people about particular facets of the current game, but if people are already giving the opinions I'm trying to make them take a stance on in response to both others' and my statements, there's not currently a need for questions like the previous masterpost of questions.
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Post Post #1007 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 11:48 am

Post by Aquanim »

In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by "scum bothering to shift gears if BBT was town". Can you explain this? Who do you think the scum are if BBT is town?
Okay, let's just go with something;

BlueBloodedToffee (3): Thor665, Knell, Aquanim
Madonna (3): Not_Mafia, BlueBloodedToffee, Tr1ckster

Competing wagons.
Elk eventually does the tiebreaker by voting Madonna (who is town) Knell seals it away by voting Trick and leaving the BBT wagon.
How many scum do you think are on the BBT wagon? I've got it at 0, personally.
With Elk in the mix, what's your take on the Madonna (confirmed town) wagon? I've got BBT, Not_Mafia, and Trickster all as questionable.
Why do I have one wagon with a lot of scumspects on it and one with none?
Hint: I think there's a reason one of them grew and stayed in activity and the other died.
Well, that's a fair point. From the perspective of you being a townie, anyway. In the hypothetical case where you are scum, it is understandable that other people I view as possible scum would not get on the same wagon as you. Which is obviously a possibility there's no point in you considering, but it is one I'm obliged to.
In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:Post 824 was only talking about your day 1 play, not your day 2 play. Your move?
Are you serious? I said two people had attacked me and that he had held off doing so until after that fact - you even agree this is happening but are debating as to whether I need to show it's about my Day 2 play or not. This is an amazing hair-splitting quibble. Please justify its purpose.
Actually, your original statement was:
note that BBT says nothing about me until two other players have attacked me over the same issue
Which is incorrect, since Not_Mafia attacked you over a different issue. Why am I making such a hair-splitting quibble? well, you started it.
In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:Next question: If you want my vote for BBT today, start by convincing me that Elk is likely enough town that he's not worth my vote. In particular I'd like to see an argument that isn't based on BBT's alignment.
I'd like to see the Elk case suggesting he's scum - give me something to disprove, don't ask me to prove a negative.
...
In post 870, Aquanim wrote:VOTE: theelkspeaks

Too much handwringing about finding everyone scummy (and thus no accountability for any changes in vote he fees like making), not enough effort towards actually doing something about it.
In post 914, Aquanim wrote: I find it hard to believe that he sheeped [Knell] and me, his scum reads, onto the Belisarius wagon. If his actual leading hypothesis was that Madonna and I were a scumteam, why would he get off the Madonna wagon and onto a counterwagon I had started? Lack of confidence in his reads is a possibility... but not one I find convincing at this point. He basically threw all his reads out the window. As for his possible motivation for doing it as scum... a possibility is that when Tr1ckster got off the Madonna wagon, if Elk and his partner were both on the Madonna wagon he might have felt uncomfortable with that state of affairs. Obviously, without knowing the identity of the other scum this is conjecture. Or maybe he wasn't comfortable on the Madonna wagon for some other reason.
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Post Post #1008 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 12:14 pm

Post by Aquanim »

In post 1003, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:I'm saying that fading into the background while the wagon you were responsible for fades away, meaning that you looked dynamic day 1 but didn't have to wear the consequences of a mislynch (if BBT is such), would fit a scum agenda very nicely.
How does that make any sense if my goal Day 2 is to...y'know, lynch BBT? Almost as though I feel it's the right choice and maybe a new day will help make it happen?
That's certainly a possibility. But then again, returning to a BBT lynch would be your logical play as scum, too.
I don't even understand where you're coming from here - look at all of the play, you're taking miniscule slices and then applying weird paranoia to them and then asking me to respond. It's weird.
My problem here is that I view those last 24-48 hours as the critical part of the day - given that no lynch had been accomplished up to that point, that "miniscule slice" is where the outcome of the entire day is determined. It's the point in the day when maybe you could convince people to vote for BBT as a compromise lynch, for instance - Knell, Madonna and Belisarius might have been receptive to a "not Madonna" lynch if they couldn't get a Tr1ckster one. I just don't get the "well my lynch isn't happening so I'll just sit around and wait" mentality at such a critical time.
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Post Post #1009 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 12:17 pm

Post by Aquanim »

In post 1006, theelkspeaks wrote: Because the assumed answer to "Are you scum?" is "no" regardless of the truth.

On a more relevant note, I ask questions to probe people about particular facets of the current game, but if people are already giving the opinions I'm trying to make them take a stance on in response to both others' and my statements, there's not currently a need for questions like the previous masterpost of questions.
How are your reads altering as a result of my conversation with Thor over the last couple of days?
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Post Post #1010 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 2:01 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1007, Aquanim wrote:
In post 1001, Aquanim wrote:Post 824 was only talking about your day 1 play, not your day 2 play. Your move?
Are you serious?
I said two people had attacked me
and that he had held off doing so until after that fact - you even agree this is happening but are debating as to whether I need to show it's about my Day 2 play or not. This is an amazing hair-splitting quibble. Please justify its purpose.
Actually, your original statement was:
note that BBT says nothing about me until
two other players have attacked me
over the same issue
Which is incorrect, since Not_Mafia attacked you over a different issue. Why am I making such a hair-splitting quibble? well, you started it.[/quote]
I started nothing.
I'll agree I was wrong that both of the two players had attacked me for the same reason - change it to "he waited till two other players ahd attacked me for different reasons" and then my issue remains intact with nothing else needing to be changed and it still remains confusing why you're splitting this hair. Is this going somewhere other than pointing out that the two people who attacked me did so for different reasons? How does that change my take on what BBT is doing?
In post 1007, Aquanim wrote:
In post 914, Aquanim wrote: I find it hard to believe that he sheeped [Knell] and me, his scum reads, onto the Belisarius wagon. If his actual leading hypothesis was that Madonna and I were a scumteam, why would he get off the Madonna wagon and onto a counterwagon I had started? Lack of confidence in his reads is a possibility... but not one I find convincing at this point. He basically threw all his reads out the window. As for his possible motivation for doing it as scum... a possibility is that when Tr1ckster got off the Madonna wagon, if Elk and his partner were both on the Madonna wagon he might have felt uncomfortable with that state of affairs. Obviously, without knowing the identity of the other scum this is conjecture. Or maybe he wasn't comfortable on the Madonna wagon for some other reason.
This is the only part of your case that looks remotely like a thing. It's not bad, it's not brilliant.
I like the BBT case better and think there's more evidence there.
In post 1008, Aquanim wrote:That's certainly a possibility. But then again, returning to a BBT lynch would be your logical play as scum, too.
If I would do the same actions regardless of alignment then all you've established is that your case is based on a null tell and doesn't show scum motivation for me.
In post 1008, Aquanim wrote:My problem here is that I view those last 24-48 hours as the critical part of the day - given that no lynch had been accomplished up to that point, that "miniscule slice" is where the outcome of the entire day is determined. It's the point in the day when maybe you could convince people to vote for BBT as a compromise lynch, for instance - Knell, Madonna and Belisarius might have been receptive to a "not Madonna" lynch if they couldn't get a Tr1ckster one. I just don't get the "well my lynch isn't happening so I'll just sit around and wait" mentality at such a critical time.
Ah, so basically you expect me to play like you do, and i I don't I'm scummy? Because that's what I get here.
You know what I did in that "critical part of the day"?

I didn't chase a vanity wagon that had already failed (At L-2...it's not like it even got to L-1) and I got town a lynch and a flip. Personally I think that was more productive of me - apparently you disagree. But the facts are the facts, and here's my defense of my actions "Yes, I did exactly what you're saying I did" I, personally, think what I did is pro-town. i personally think what you're saying I should have done would have been immensely anti-town.
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Post Post #1011 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 2:25 pm

Post by Aquanim »

In post 1010, Thor665 wrote: I started nothing.
I'll agree I was wrong that both of the two players had attacked me for the same reason - change it to "he waited till two other players ahd attacked me for different reasons" and then my issue remains intact with nothing else needing to be changed and it still remains confusing why you're splitting this hair. Is this going somewhere other than pointing out that the two people who attacked me did so for different reasons? How does that change my take on what BBT is doing?
It makes your point on BBT considerably weaker. Of the two people who'd attacked you on Day 2 at that point, one of them was talking about something completely different. Neither of them went into as much depth, or committed as hard to their point of view, as BBT had at that point in time.
In post 1007, Aquanim wrote:
In post 914, Aquanim wrote: I find it hard to believe that he sheeped [Knell] and me, his scum reads, onto the Belisarius wagon. If his actual leading hypothesis was that Madonna and I were a scumteam, why would he get off the Madonna wagon and onto a counterwagon I had started? Lack of confidence in his reads is a possibility... but not one I find convincing at this point. He basically threw all his reads out the window. As for his possible motivation for doing it as scum... a possibility is that when Tr1ckster got off the Madonna wagon, if Elk and his partner were both on the Madonna wagon he might have felt uncomfortable with that state of affairs. Obviously, without knowing the identity of the other scum this is conjecture. Or maybe he wasn't comfortable on the Madonna wagon for some other reason.
This is the only part of your case that looks remotely like a thing. It's not bad, it's not brilliant.
I like the BBT case better and think there's more evidence there.
I'm not asking you for your unsubstantiated opinion on how good the case is, I'm asking you to tell me
why
.
In post 1008, Aquanim wrote:That's certainly a possibility. But then again, returning to a BBT lynch would be your logical play as scum, too.
If I would do the same actions regardless of alignment then all you've established is that your case is based on a null tell and doesn't show scum motivation for me.
No, I've established that there is both a possible town motivation and a possible scum motivation. If I decide that the scum motivation is significantly more likely, then I'll try to convince other people of that with a view to lynching you. Having now heard your alternative explanation for your actions I don't need anything more from you on this point for now.
In post 1008, Aquanim wrote:My problem here is that I view those last 24-48 hours as the critical part of the day - given that no lynch had been accomplished up to that point, that "miniscule slice" is where the outcome of the entire day is determined. It's the point in the day when maybe you could convince people to vote for BBT as a compromise lynch, for instance - Knell, Madonna and Belisarius might have been receptive to a "not Madonna" lynch if they couldn't get a Tr1ckster one. I just don't get the "well my lynch isn't happening so I'll just sit around and wait" mentality at such a critical time.
Ah, so basically you expect me to play like you do, and i I don't I'm scummy? Because that's what I get here.
I expect you to play towards achieving the best lynch you can, yes. Which is the standard I hold myself to.
You know what I did in that "critical part of the day"?

I didn't chase a vanity wagon that had already failed (At L-2...it's not like it even got to L-1) and I got town a lynch and a flip. Personally I think that was more productive of me - apparently you disagree. But the facts are the facts, and here's my defense of my actions "Yes, I did exactly what you're saying I did" I, personally, think what I did is pro-town. i personally think what you're saying I should have done would have been immensely anti-town.
Uh... the BBT wagon did get to L-1, if only briefly. Madonna put it there.

And no, you didn't get town a lynch and a flip. I got town a lynch and a flip, on someone I was happy to lynch, by pushing the Belisarius wagon. You didn't contribute to that wagon, you came in and hammered it at the end having put no work into it and not even being accountable for it, since it was Beli or a no-lynch at that point.
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Post Post #1012 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 2:48 pm

Post by Aquanim »

I also still want you to reconcile these two statements:
In post 999, Thor665 wrote:Because as far as I can tell the other offer was Madonna, who I called town and was correct on, so...?
In post 567, Thor665 wrote: I have things I'd rather do than set myself up as a defender of a [Madonna] slot I'm not actually town reading. Let's just leave it at "I am still unimpressed by the Madonna case", okay?
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Post Post #1013 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 2:56 pm

Post by Knell »

N_M do you still have nothing to go on? There are problems with the day ending with ambiguities in regards to your slot. How can I help you latch unto something? What do you usually need?

@Tr1ckster, sorry to hear that. Why do you think Thor is town?

@Aquanim, why did you wait until now to start providing your doubts and problems with Thor? Why don't you need anything more from him?

@BBT, sup?
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Post Post #1014 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 3:52 pm

Post by Aquanim »

In post 1013, Knell wrote: @Aquanim, why did you wait until now to start providing your doubts and problems with Thor?

I didn't think he'd been questioned sufficiently or accurately enough by other people earlier, I wanted a decent read on him by the end of day 2 and I'd hoped until then that it would happen without my doing this, and I didn't have sufficient thread access until a couple of days ago to do it properly.
Why don't you need anything more from him?
He's supplied an explanation for his actions at the end of day 1; having him repeat it for me won't accomplish anything, I just have to decide whether I believe it. There are other things that I still need answered though.
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Post Post #1015 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 3:57 pm

Post by Aquanim »

@Knell
: What, if anything, from Elk's posts today do you feel reflects a town mentality?
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Post Post #1016 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 6:18 pm

Post by Knell »

Well, let's go through them.

Things that could point to town.
1. Requested an extension when he didn't have to and got to playing as fast as possible.
2. Some of the questions he made were specific when he got in here, for example he was interested in your interaction with Thor, another goodish question was asked to N_M.
3. Indecisiveness, , so this didn't just pop up. It could be as you say, but it also seems like it's possible he really was just lost.
4. , gives a pretty good response to Tr1ckster's question. He might have been stalling though.
5. His bigger posts tend to give the impression he's trying to figure people out.
6. Sort of contradicting myself here, but while he's explaining himself/anticipating questions he also has pretty believable explanations. Which I think is usually a sign they might be legitimate.

Things that could point to scum.
1. Verboseness on irrelevant details
2. His case on N_M when I asked him about it lacked flavor(bland).
3. Some of his questions seemed to lack direction and seemingly had no point and I have a slight suspicion it was more to gauge, then it was to read.
4. He's anticipating certain questions and answering them ahead of time. which I feel is a pretty solid way of avoiding engagement.
5. I agree with you. If I'm remembering correctly. His read on Madonna and his reasons for putting her at L-1 were much stronger than our's were. you didn't even have a case, I wrote a one liner, and Tr1ckster was like, "surprise, I'm actually scum reading Belisarius!"<- he then backed it up though. It was pretty weird, that he wasn't weirded out by it, unlike BBT, who rightly called "what the fuck" on us.
6. is fine until the end, where he narrows it to 3, and unlike the "I'm reading everyone as scum" thing and keeping his options open, this is legitimately narrowing the field in a way that I find somewhat scummy. However, he did make a relatively good justification for why he voted Tr1ckster over both of us. But, if I were I'd have done the same. /:

Things that point neither way that are sort of interesting.
1. Has a good track of the game, seems to want to know where everyone is going. But not WHY they're going there. At least conventionally (he's not doing much footwork/asking questions).
2. Madonna case was interesting. Still percolating on it.
3. His justification for his interpretation of his wagon analysis is very backwards from what I understand about mafia. In general, I think scum either want to follow people who make arguments and take responsibility for them, then not. Off the wagon but furthering their death, is something I can agree with some.
He then actually goes more along my line of reasoning by voting Tr1ckster, (though, in fact, Tr1ckster gave the most reasons between the 3 of us).
4. Seems to have a good track on what he says and does. Might be reading his own posts to refresh his memory.
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Post Post #1017 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 9:27 pm

Post by Aquanim »

In post 1016, Knell wrote:Well, let's go through them.
Things that could point to town.
1. Requested an extension when he didn't have to and got to playing as fast as possible.
It was kind of assumed by the thread at large that he would request that extension, it would have looked really sketchy if he didn't. If he's scum I imagine he would have known that.
2. Some of the questions he made were specific when he got in here, for example he was interested in your interaction with Thor, another goodish question was asked to N_M.
My interaction day 1 with Thor was pretty clearly odd I think, and it's not like he asked a particularly specific question or followed it up much. Question to N_M is OK, I agree.
3. Indecisiveness, , so this didn't just pop up. It could be as you say, but it also seems like it's possible he really was just lost.
He was indecisive about his Belisarius read, but he seemed pretty decisive about the Madonna read up until he threw it out the window. I certainly didn't think he was going to change his mind at the time. I agree though that it's not like he flipped 180 degrees on the Beli read.
4. , gives a pretty good response to Tr1ckster's question. He might have been stalling though.
Eh. I can imagine a scum plotting out "I'm going to pretend to be confused by the nightkill for a while, since we've made a confusing nightkill, and then I'll come to conclusion X". That's not the only explanation but I'm not really convinced by that answer's towniness.
5. His bigger posts tend to give the impression he's trying to figure people out.
I don't think there's anyone in the game I wouldn't describe like that to at least some extent. BBT (and maybe Not_Mafia) are low on that list, and maybe BBT's lower than Elk - but I don't put much stock in long lists of "X happened, then Y happened, then..." followed by a short amount of actual reasoning. That's the kind of work which scum like to do because they look like they're doing work but don't have to actually pretend to analyse like a townie much. That being said, just because scum like to do it doesn't mean a townie couldn't do it.
6. Sort of contradicting myself here, but while he's explaining himself/anticipating questions he also has pretty believable explanations. Which I think is usually a sign they might be legitimate.
That's a pretty general observation. Which doesn't necessarily make it wrong, I admit.
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Post Post #1018 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 9:29 pm

Post by Aquanim »

@Elk
: Yesterday you said that Knell would be your greatest scumread if Madonna flipped town. What is your read on him now and why?
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Post Post #1019 (ISO) » Thu May 15, 2014 9:55 pm

Post by Aquanim »

These three are related so I'll comment on them together.
In post 1016, Knell wrote:.
5. I agree with you. If I'm remembering correctly. His read on Madonna and his reasons for putting her at L-1 were much stronger than our's were. you didn't even have a case, I wrote a one liner, and Tr1ckster was like, "surprise, I'm actually scum reading Belisarius!"<- he then backed it up though. It was pretty weird, that he wasn't weirded out by it, unlike BBT, who rightly called "what the fuck" on us.
In fairness I'd given reasons for voting Belisarius the first time; my inclination to lynch him wasn't a suprise to anyone.
6. is fine until the end, where he narrows it to 3, and unlike the "I'm reading everyone as scum" thing and keeping his options open, this is legitimately narrowing the field in a way that I find somewhat scummy. However, he did make a relatively good justification for why he voted Tr1ckster over both of us. But, if I were I'd have done the same. /:
Unfortunately I think this boils down to null for me, mostly: of the three of us I think Tr1ckster is pretty obviously both more likely to be scum (hence why Elk would vote him if Elk is town) and less dangerous to vote (hence why Elk would vote him if Elk is scum).

The fact that he's narrowing his gaze to only three people is kinda scummy, though diluted somewhat by the fact that he's not saying he's sure both scum are in that category.
...
Things that point neither way that are sort of interesting.
...
3. His justification for his interpretation of his wagon analysis is very backwards from what I understand about mafia. In general, I think scum either want to follow people who make arguments and take responsibility for them, then not. Off the wagon but furthering their death, is something I can agree with some.
He then actually goes more along my line of reasoning by voting Tr1ckster, (though, in fact, Tr1ckster gave the most reasons between the 3 of us).
While it's true that Tr1ckster did give some reasons I do still feel like he stuck his neck out less than either of us, we'd already taken the plunge and started a wagon from scratch (then again, getting off the Madonna wagon he'd been pushing most of the day took some guts).

I don't really agree with Elk's specific arguments here, but townies say things I don't agree with all the time. So whatever. They're not "only scum could be this daft" level of bad by any means.
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Post Post #1020 (ISO) » Fri May 16, 2014 3:51 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1011, Aquanim wrote:It makes your point on BBT considerably weaker. Of the two people who'd attacked you on Day 2 at that point, one of them was talking about something completely different. Neither of them went into as much depth, or committed as hard to their point of view, as BBT had at that point in time.
I disagree with your point and think you're being obtuse in understanding that there was a flow of attack on me that BBT hopped on - the only reason he got into it (as you seem to believe) is I demanded he back up his stance. His back up of his stance was, if you'll note, to defend NM's point...a point I even got NM to agree was not really correct...but somehow BBT is still all about it. You are apparently blind to this, and I'm not sure what I need to do to make you understand it. If his actions come across to you as a paragon of scumhunting brilliance than that is that, but I think you should get better reading skills.
In post 1011, Aquanim wrote:I'm not asking you for your unsubstantiated opinion on how good the case is, I'm asking you to tell me
why
.
Are you kidding me?

Okay, let's try to do this. For the first part, your case has two points - I'm going to make them simple and discuss each. For the record, I don't give a hang of your reply to these.

1. He is hand wringing and overplaying his inability to develop town reads/has too many scumreads.
2. He followed a case of scum reads onto another scum read.

1. This point is ....dumb. You are kinda weird for being excited about it. New players literally do this all the time right along with the ol' "I don't know how to scumhunt" tell. There is no evidence to suggest that Elk should be some sort of town hunter. Also, besides the very generic "has options left open" there is no particular gain to bother doing this as scum. It's not even that important of a strategy. He could have four scumspects only and probably have enough for the entire game.

2. Well...first off, if he has nothing but scumreads, as noted in #1, well...by definition he's always going to be voting along with scumreads. Now, don't get me too wrong, this point isn't as dumb as the first one. In fact, as I said, I kinda liked it. That said, I've seen town do this quite a lot. I agree it's bad logic and I agree that town who do it are bad. That's probably why I indicated I was oka with this as a case on him. That said, since I've seen town do that I am not going to scream "omigawd, bezt case evah!" either. At that point, you can kind of whine about wanting me to break down the case for you....but, the case is paper thin anyway and is based on an action I know town do - but that is the extent of me being able to address it. I might as well challenge you to find scum doing the same, I'm sure they have, it makes sense they would, but it's simply an awkward reference that will be hard to find to prove your case right. Also, I'm not sure what you want me to discuss about it - I was actually pretty clear in my thoughts already.

In post 1011, Aquanim wrote:No, I've established that there is both a possible town motivation and a possible scum motivation. If I decide that the scum motivation is significantly more likely, then I'll try to convince other people of that with a view to lynching you. Having now heard your alternative explanation for your actions I don't need anything more from you on this point for now.
:neutral:
In post 1011, Aquanim wrote:I expect you to play towards achieving the best lynch
I believe was theoretically possible, even though I am ignoring that all the support for the wagon, myself included, was chasing other targets, making it an incredibly difficult wagon to acheive, and then I'll whine that you didn't try anyway with no actual backing to suggest town Thor would see that as a good play, and then I'll demand that Thor needs to defend himself for not doing a play that Thor doesn't think is that good
, yes. Which is the standard I hold myself to.
I fixed this for you.
In post 1011, Aquanim wrote:Uh... the BBT wagon did get to L-1, if only briefly. Madonna put it there.
Do you think she was coming back? Were you? This is a silly conversation.
In post 1011, Aquanim wrote:And no, you didn't get town a lynch and a flip. I got town a lynch and a flip, on someone I was happy to lynch, by pushing the Belisarius wagon. You didn't contribute to that wagon, you came in and hammered it at the end having put no work into it and not even being accountable for it, since it was Beli or a no-lynch at that point.
:neutral:
Ah, right, so at the stage it was Belli or no lynch...what are you saying I should have done? And who do you think was going to make the Belli thing happen if not I? ANd which is preferable, Belli or no lynch?
In post 1012, Aquanim wrote:I also still want you to reconcile these two statements:
I did call Madonna town and was correct.
I did go through multiple shifts with her wherein I noted that she was becoming less town or that I supported a lynch on her.
I did express a "not calling her town" which you are apparently deciding equates to "calling her scum" which is the only way this has any issue at that stage of the game.
I am aware that I chose supporting Belli ovr her at the final hour.
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Post Post #1021 (ISO) » Fri May 16, 2014 3:59 am

Post by Thor665 »

@Aquanim - I think what's really frustrating me about my interactions with you at the moment is basically you're fact checking my memories...and then being pissy about my wording as opposed to my intent. You have caught me, like, 2-4 times saying things that, when you go back and fact check you are able to point out minor issues with it (stuff like, did I outright claim a townish read on Madonna, or were the two attackers I noted specifically doing the same attack or different ones) and you then get excited and hop around and demand that I defend myself...all while ignoring that the point I was making (that BBT attacked me only after two people had attacked me, that I didn't particularly support a Madonna lynch and, indeed, was defending her from the case on her) all specifically and fully are backed up.

You then waste my and town's time, with these debates...that aren't even calling into question the meaning and intent of my actions, but simply how specifically I recall them.

You have shown, and proven, that Thor is not fact checking himself.
That proves that all my answers are coming off the top of my head without fear.
You have shown I have gotten facts skewed.
You have not shown any issue with what I'm saying vs. what I was and am doing - indeed, those all line up perfectly.
And yet...you're still doing it.

What is going on here, what is the point of this, and what is your actual issue here?
As far as I can tell you've found evidence for me being town and are too silly to notice it.
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Post Post #1022 (ISO) » Fri May 16, 2014 4:01 am

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I mean, like, say I was scum, and wanted to misrepresent BBT's attack on me, because I'm scum and evil.

Okay, so two people attacked me first - I'll claim that.
They attacked me for different reasons - I''ll lie and claim the reasons are identical...because...y'know, that will look better somehow for me.
BBT will then sheep and attack me for one of their reasons.

Huzzah, brilliant scum lie!

I don't get it.
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Post Post #1023 (ISO) » Fri May 16, 2014 5:10 am

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In post 1022, Thor665 wrote:I mean, like, say I was scum, and wanted to misrepresent BBT's attack on me, because I'm scum and evil.

Okay, so two people attacked me first - I'll claim that.
They attacked me for different reasons - I''ll lie and claim the reasons are identical...because...y'know, that will look better somehow for me.
BBT will then sheep and attack me for one of their reasons.

Huzzah, brilliant scum lie!

I don't get it.
It actually does look better for you though if I have sheeped two people's reasoning for attacking you. When in fact, only one person had mentioned it and that's all it actually was, a mention. So instead of 3 people attacking you over one issue (which is what you tried to claim), it actually boils down to one person attacking you over one issue (which is actually the truth). Big difference.
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Post Post #1024 (ISO) » Fri May 16, 2014 5:17 am

Post by Thor665 »

Except that my point was that you clung to the back of issues. Not that you lacked reasoning. Sheeping multiple identical cases supports one of those more than the other, and it doesn't support the one that I'm making the case on you over. Now, if my case was that you lacked original thought - then me lying about that might make some sense. My point of you clinging to the back of cases is supported by you not coming at me until 2 other people had done so first - it doesn't matter what their reasoning, or yours was, it matters that you didn't express an issue with me today till after two others did the same. If I'd lied and said 3, that would, again, be in support of my case - but I didn't do that either.

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