Touhou UPick 2 - [Game Over]

[fferyllt]

I didn't troll. Not intentionally. I was pretty freaked about being suspected of being SK and expected getting NK'd would lose the game.

Aside from townreading Zmuffin pretty hard, I think my reads weren't bad. I suspected Varsoon and I wanted to lynch Magua first because Feirei's play had looked town even though Victor's hadn't. But there really wasn't any energy around lynching Magua. :/

This was a really difficult game to replace into at mylo. I would like to think I would have been more effective, and played better if I'd been in the game from the start, but I dunno.

When Victor flipped town, I figured Nacho was probably scum, and if there had been a day 4 I might have gone after him hammer and tongs.

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[zMuffinMan]

The setup may have been favoring them

i actually thought this game was rather town-sided, albeit requiring town to lynch a scum player for that to be the case

if magua-slot had been lynched at any point prior to N2 it would have been an uphill battle all game, or if town had used their roles a bit differently (since the downside to getting double kills each night was magua-slot being completley defenseless to vig/investigations/roleblocks/etc)

roles look cool. i woulda liked to roll town this game.

[FakeGod]

I mean it's true

town had a shitton of power

and then some

[FakeGod]

I feel especially bad for pieguyn and GIF, who were on the losing side of both Touhou UPicks.

[FakeGod]

I thought it was absolutely hilarious that the scum team was Yukari + Team 9

[vezokpiraka]

I still can't get over kagami town.
That buddying to magua was aaaaah.

[Kagami]

You mean magua, who I considered scum more or less throughout the final day? I was sure muffin was scum too, since town muffin would have been railing on the IC all of day 3; and also knew that varsoon was scum. I just thought FG wouldn't make an investigation immune scum, so figured he had to be SK, which left victor as scum and the only scum I had position to lynch.

[Kagami]

I don't think town had a lot of power. Much of what we had was powerful on paper, but wildly anti-town given that the scum had two godfathers (a role that I don't think should ever be seen outside of open setups).

[borkjerfkin]

I caught zmuffin day 1 and none helped me lynch him. Fuck his ability that blocks stuff.

um

[borkjerfkin]

was really frustrating to have everyone handwave my shit on muffin away with armchair meta *cough pie sakura cough*

[Sakura Hana]

my face when Varsoon was godfather orz

[Magua]

Oh god I'm so terrible as scum.

[Magua]

Oh, and zMM, I never even opened the other Quicktopics. (Upon seeing my role, I originally thought I got to trollpost in them, but no, FakeGod clarified it was just reading, so then I asked about the unique visitor count, and he was like, "Um, about that" and zMM and Varsoon are screaming in the scum QT to not open them, so.)

Trollposting QT Spy would be awesome, tho.

[Magua]

Also, I think it's a quantifiable town disadvantage to be in an incredibly uncommon setup (Mafia has two kills) that looks like a very common setup (eg Mafia + SK).

[Feirei]

If you "caught" him, why did you waste your vig on someone who was blatantly obvtown, vezok?

[Kagami]

If you "caught" him, why did you waste your vig on someone who was blatantly obvtown, vezok?

Because she attacked Victor, whom he mysteriously knew to be town.

[zMuffinMan]

I don't think town had a lot of power. Much of what we had was powerful on paper, but wildly anti-town given that the scum had two godfathers (a role that I don't think should ever be seen outside of open setups).

i think this is very wrong

magua's role was a double-edged sword. it could be extremely powerful IF he never drew night actions (which just so happened to be the case this game) but there were multiple ways he could have been caught (apart from the cops, a rolecop on him woulda doomed him, he could have been vig-killed, roleblocked, etc)

my role was very limited in use and only became useful near mylo/lylo, which means i needed to live that long to make it useful

and varsoon was just a glorified godfather with no other real abilities, and it was just pure luck that he was sakura's investigation target, because if sakura had investigated town D1, you woulda had a town player in varsoon's "conftown" position (or if she'd investigated me, she woulda got no result or we'd have been forced to kill her) and him having a relatively useless role (or at least no useful active abilities)

but what makes this town-sided isn't so much that your abilities countered ours or anything... it's the fact that there were so many goddamn ICs (and it took so much mist to counter this) <- you had an actual IC (with pretty powerful abilities), masons (with extremely powerful abilities - and yes, they don't flip masons, but there were so many other ways they could have confirmed themselves as masons if not outright claiming it), sakura was basically an IC (who, lucky for us, got vig killed), not really sure how anyone could think bork was scum after the whole mokou thing (and i really dunno why fakegod included that), bitmap was never going to be lynched after claiming. that's 6 people who could have formed a town block at any point and mowed down the scum team if they played it well. not including stuff like a human-only-vig yuyuko, miller claim, double-voter who gets increasingly powerful with time etc etc stuff which was more likely town than scum to any sane person :/

*shrug*

if roles had been used in a slightly different way, if people had stepped back and thought about things differently, this game could have easily been a town win through sheer setup gaming. i know it can be dangerous to play the setup spec game sometimes, but this one seemed rather obvious and i was surprised so many people didn't see obvious things.

/rant

[zMuffinMan]

also fakegod

if you run this sort of setup again, try to give scum something they could reasonably claim as a town ability. like the mokou thing, or the human-only-vig thing, or something, so that the setup can't be broken through stuff like that. we didn't _really_ have anything like that

it really didn't end up mattering here, but it could in the next game

(if i were town here, i woulda been a lot more forceful about a mass claim, or at least a claim of core abilities, role names, etc)

[Sakura Hana]

I kept at least asking for a flavor claim, then GiF gave us all of our flavor names.
On a side note, i choose Suzuna because i wanted to try something different. and i actually like being voteless because i usually have a tendency to get random 180 flips on reads that get me lynched, without a vote it's harder to be noticed + the public joat thing, helped a lot getting townread this game, and i'm still surprised i was Vig'd.
Next game i'll probably choose yet something different, looking forward for an upick 3!

[Kagami]

You're underestimating the power of getting an investigation on a godfather, which was extremely likely in this setup. Usually that alone means scum wins, unless town has a reason to believe there is a godfather (which we didn't).

[zMuffinMan]

You're underestimating the power of getting an investigation on a godfather

no, i'm not. everyone else was over-valuing that and discarding play because of it. i never treat an inno like it means anything unless there is a reason it should

i mean, what exactly did you expect scum was going to have to counter town's power in this game?

[FakeGod]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

Also, I think it's a quantifiable town disadvantage to be in an incredibly uncommon setup (Mafia has two kills) that looks like a very common setup (eg Mafia + SK).

That is true. If I saw consistent double town kills, first thing I would imagine would be SK + Mafia, not Mafia + Mafia.

Perhaps if it was public knowledge from the beginning that there were only two factions in this game, it would have solve this problem?

if you run this sort of setup again, try to give scum something they could reasonably claim as a town ability. like the mokou thing, or the human-only-vig thing, or something, so that the setup can't be broken through stuff like that. we didn't _really_ have anything like that

I tried somewhat with your "I can use Night Cards during the day" thing, and Varsoon's "I'm the STRONGEST".

But I do see your point. Those abilities are not *really* on the same level as the other ones you've named. I'll make a note.

@Sakura: You weren't *really* voteless. You had two spellcards to give you voting power. >.>

You're underestimating the power of getting an investigation on a godfather, which was extremely likely in this setup. Usually that alone means scum wins, unless town has a reason to believe there is a godfather (which we didn't).

Investigation on Varsoon would be very bad for town, but investigation on zMM would a) not happen if he claims commuter first post, or b) would fail, and force zMM to explain himself.

But I don't think I will ever use godfather that investigates as town again. It punishes good town PR choices. I think godfather on which investigations fail on isn't too imbalanced though.

[FakeGod]

I kept at least asking for a flavor claim, then GiF gave us all of our flavor names.
On a side note, i choose Suzuna because i wanted to try something different. and i actually like being voteless because i usually have a tendency to get random 180 flips on reads that get me lynched, without a vote it's harder to be noticed + the public joat thing, helped a lot getting townread this game, and i'm still surprised i was Vig'd.
Next game i'll probably choose yet something different, looking forward for an upick 3!

Side note, Sanae would have been a full doctor + pick-a-day unlynchable this game.

[FakeGod]

Usually that alone means scum wins, unless town has a reason to believe there is a godfather (which we didn't).

I agree with you on paper, but among all the games I have played, in two games godfather got investigated as town, yet town won both games. (My first Large Normal and Bipolar Mafia)

I don't think there was a game I was in which godfather was investigated as town, and scum team won.

It's small-sample statistic, so I know it doesn't mean much, but I don't think godfather getting investigated as town doesn't necessarily mean it's an auto-win for the scum team.