NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[chamber]

the whole exchange...made me uncomfortable. If he actually thought Tigris's initial posting was scummy, even if it was only slightly so, then it's weird for him to make basically excuses for keep his vote on Tigris like that. Is there really some line on page 5 where "X is scummy enough for a FOS, but you have to do Y to be scummy enough for a vote?

Isn't this counter to your 'consistency is scummy' theory?

[chamber]

Chamber looks bad for Post 130. It’s like he’s about to approach an actual position on Tigris

The very first sentence is literally an unqualified position on Tigris.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty:

I should probably take a read though again now we're back to get my footing and figure out if Seol is still where I want my vote.

I've noticed you've retained a focus on Bookitty, who replaced Seol. I was curious to see what other players have caught your eye, and the reasons why for such suspicions (I assumed such observations would arise from a reread). Should I presume that you've done your reread and are comfortable with your Seol/Bookitty vote?

Very happy at this point. I started a little read though but I would like more input from the replacements before I commit to a more in depth one. Other suspect as of right now is Yos for his stance on VitR/STD I find it pretty contradicting which he explains away with his consistency is a scum tell. As of right now I'm not biting.

Partly skimmed thought Bookitty's Pbpa. I'll take another look when I'm not as tired but I didn't see anything groundbreaking on first glimpse.

CTD

- What do you think of Yos post 568?

[Yosarian2]

What interests me now, is you decided to make a thing out of it...

At this point, I'm mostly trying to get you to explain what you're thinking because I'm trying to get a read on you here.

[Yosarian2]

the whole exchange...made me uncomfortable. If he actually thought Tigris's initial posting was scummy, even if it was only slightly so, then it's weird for him to make basically excuses for keep his vote on Tigris like that. Is there really some line on page 5 where "X is scummy enough for a FOS, but you have to do Y to be scummy enough for a vote?

Isn't this counter to your 'consistency is scummy' theory?

Well, what do you expect from me; consistency?

Seriously, I wouldn't care if he random vote Tigris, and I wouldn't care if he voted Tigris because he thought Tigris was scummy. I also wouldn't care if he changed his mind. The way he's trying to have it both ways, though, feels scummy; it feels like he knew his Tigris vote was bad and was trying to distance himself from it, or else like he's trying to do a lot of tapdancing to make it look like his scumhunting was more honest then it actually was. It's not the contradiction that's the problem so much as what looks like an attempt to dishonestly smoothtalk it under the rug.

Tell me, does his explanation there make much sense to you?

[chamber]

Depends on what you mean by making sense. I can believe it's something he actually thinks.

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: LoudmouthLee

Vote: Bookitty

Bookitty's readthrough looks almost specifically designed to justify her suspicions of me. I am sensing that she is writing it with an agenda in mind (and probably an agenda towards more players than simply myself, but I am obviously a bit more attuned to agendas against myself). It seems like every time she comes across one of my posts she is obliged to mention something about it, but she does not give others' posts a similar treatment. Much of the time she does not even seem to draw conclusions from my posts -- she just mentions them as if they are significant and by implication scummy in some manner.

As for the things she has tried to drum up as being suspicious:

My questions to Tigris were all to see how she would respond, including my second and third questions. My second question ("would you still vote MafiaSSK if Glork's wagon had stopped at three votes?") was to get a feel for her grasp on theory and how strongly she would abide by it. My third question ("last time you did not think three votes on page 1 was suspicious, so why was it enough to justify your vote here?") had an obvious answer (namely, "the last game was a Newbie game and this is a Large game") and I largely wanted to see how she worded her answer and if she would draw further distinctions. Her answers were ho-hum (not great, not bad) and I felt no need to pursue her further.

And I guess there's not much else. For all the times she mentions my name there is actually nothing much to respond to.

As an aside, I'm assuming you meant MafiaSSK's Post 124 when you said this, since Post 107 is my post that MafiaSSK was responding to:

MafiaSSK’s Post 107 is mostly town to me.

~

1.)

LoudmouthLee, what do you think of Bookitty? (And I'm aware I have five pending questions to you, apologies for tossing another on the pile).

2.)

mathcam, I would specifically like your opinions on LoudmouthLee and Bookitty when you have the chance.

3.)

mathcam, why do you think MafiaSSK replaced out?

[Untrod Tripod]

eh I'm totally happy to lynch either LML or Bookitty at this point

[VitaminR]

Still happy with my LML vote. Found his four-point case (Post 451) against PJ flawed and unpersuasive. I'm curious how the other PJ-voters (

Albert, Vitamin, Bookitty

) feel about LML's four-point case.

I've expressed something like point 3 previously (though I think PJ's explanation that he was going for a socratic dialogue makes it look a bit better in hindsight). I kind of agree with point 2, and a bit with point 1.

The way that post is written feels off and overly blustery, though (like the 'kill PJ' bit at the end), and perhaps this is what you're getting at. At the end of the day, I think it makes LML look worse.

[VitaminR]

CES is probably town for Post 564 and Post 565, for the record. There's too much serious-CES in quick succession for him as scum.

[DrippingGoofball]

eh I'm totally happy to lynch either LML or Bookitty at this point

Thanks for being so obvious!

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

[Zorblag]

@DrippingGoofball, I've had issues with Untrod Tripod's play, but that post is absolutely in line with what he's been saying in the game and is coming at an unsurprising time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[mathcam]

Okay, caught up. And by caught up I mean I have now read every page of the game, but don't mean that I have a massive database of notes from which I can instantaneously respond to questions like "What did you think about the debate between X and Y"? As a bit of a meta, my last brief return to the site left me with a bitter aftertaste, being populated with Natirasha-type new-stylers. I'm glad to see that this game looks much more engaging (though in my book, is of a definitively "medium" style (to me, old-style involves a much more rapid pace than this, and a much smaller page-count -- we weren't quite so demanding that everyone weigh in on every little side discussion).

To briefly address MafiaSSK, I think it's clear that he posited some theories that were wrong to the point of sheer lunacy (e.g., post 173, though FOS whoever it was that asked him why he thought there was no daytalk). Whether or not we agree with Yos's perspective that such inconsistencies are pro-town (a perspective I find perfectly justifiable, and not only because it so behooves me in this particular instance), I think it's also clear that he genuinely believed them. I also thing that nestled in his theories he had some valid finds. He was the only person that I noticed that called out CES's obsession with Seol (which was probably in part joke-y/meta-y, but lasted much longer than seemed natural to me), and CES's bizarre quote in post 137 that "I agree with CTD that chamber's alignment is fairly obvious at this point." Of course, SSK's point about CES and CTD being scum together was silly.

So I'm happy with SSK's vote on CES, even if I disagree with some of how he got there. I'll leave it there with the hope that there's some agreement or discussion on this topic, and we work on moving the bandwagons here.

That said, I need to weigh in on some other aspects: I have a list of people I think are probably town, but I'm not sure it does anyone any good to reveal them (except to note that neither of the two leading bandwagon candidates are on that list), but this my be a point of theory where reasonable people can disagree. I have slight scum reads on both LML and BooKitty (mostly inherited from Seol, though I do have an unelaboratable gut feeling that she's working really hard to save a scum role from a losing position), though I can't say that I can particularly well point to places in the text where either have said anything that really triggered a negative reaction from me (one exception -- Seol finding SSK's crazy theories scummy instead of just wrong seems off to me). To be perfectly honest, I'm a little skeptical of a vast majority of such arguments -- I just don't have faith that an information-less Day 1 can provide anything but a marginally-better-than-average probability of hitting scum, especially with experienced players. Finally, I have a slight town read on PJ, just because as opposed to Seol, PJ's arguments against SSK seemed more genuine.

3.) mathcam, why do you think MafiaSSK replaced out?

I'm torn between my options of providing an incredibly sarcastic response to this in which I speculate on the possible life pitfalls into which SSK may have fallen that tore away him from this game, or feeling insulted that you think my obvious lack of actual information on this front would lead me to engage in speculation in such a way that a scum me would accidentally let something slip. I guess I'll just leave it at this.

(Man, I'm ornery! Sorry.)

[Untrod Tripod]

@DrippingGoofball, I've had issues with Untrod Tripod's play, but that post is absolutely in line with what he's been saying in the game and is coming at an unsurprising time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

You know DGB like to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, right?

[mathcam]

p.s. Unnntrrrooooood Trrriiiipppooooood!

[VitaminR]

I also think that nestled in his theories he had some valid finds. He was the only person that I noticed that called out CES's obsession with Seol (which was probably in part joke-y/meta-y, but lasted much longer than seemed natural to me), and CES's bizarre quote in post 137 that "I agree with CTD that chamber's alignment is fairly obvious at this point." Of course, SSK's point about CES and CTD being scum together was silly.

As someone who knows CES very well, I can tell you that there is nothing bizarre about that quote. It was a very CES-y way of pointing out that he thought chamber was obviously town. He likes being clever in his wording and you're on the wrong track if you think there was any obfuscatory intent there. Anyone who knows CES would immediately have picked up on what he meant, like I did (chamber did also).

CES is not the droid you're looking for.

[DrippingGoofball]

@DrippingGoofball, I've had issues with Untrod Tripod's play, but that post is absolutely in line with what he's been saying in the game and is coming at an unsurprising time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

You know DGB like to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, right?

I've been throwing shit at the wall? Everyone is complaining that I have too many town reads, LOL.

"Caught for the wrong reasons" strikes again.

[Untrod Tripod]

Girl please

[Glork]

I'm like 80% sure that I will be voting to lynch Bookitty or PJ today. I just really can't decide which.

[mathcam]

It was a very CES-y way of pointing out that he thought chamber was obviously town.

Ahhhhh. Apparently, along with MafiaSSK's role, apparently I also inherited his failed sarcasmometer. Oops.

Unvote: CES, Vote: BooKitty

[Shanba]

Bookitty's wall is the first post in the slot all game that's given me any better feelings than that creepy one where the hairs on your arms and the back of your neck stand on end.

@DrippingGoofball, I've had issues with Untrod Tripod's play, but that post is absolutely in line with what he's been saying in the game and is coming at an unsurprising time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

You know DGB like to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, right?

I've been throwing shit at the wall? Everyone is complaining that I have too many town reads, LOL.

"Caught for the wrong reasons" strikes again.

I'm going to be charitable and assume there's something here I misunderstood. Caught for the wrong reasons?

[Porochaz]

Phew Pages 11 to 15 done.

251 - 254. This was a weird one, between ABR and VitR. I like both of them, however this exchange was weird for me, like they were collectively deciding who to vote for.

255 Was a interesting yos post. So much so that I actually went and looked up undos iso. He really hasn't posted anything of value.

258 Basically I wanted a proper read off of him of other players, after yos's post and I didn't get it. I don't really have any clue at what he is thinking this game and he isn't making any effort to correct that. (more on this later)

278, I don't mind 278 I think its fair enough, but 280 afterwards was shite. He defends himself by attacking other players for being on weak wagons, but doesn't defend himself. Its very much a "yeah... but these guys did it too!" approach.

291 GC reiterates the question to LML he asked in 179.

297 Petroleumjelly has pushed the strong/weak thing for too long. It's getting nowhere, I mean, his point I get, but its time to move on... I would like a more general picture of his outlook on the game as I am struggling to see past his SSK suspicions (apart from the Glrok point)

298 Undo makes another post with little suspicions, at this point in the game, I'd be happy to vote undo. He needs to start making some reads.

302 I'm really not sure LML answered Green Crayons question. Im interested in his current suspicions of SSK, which is what GC asked in the initial question and I still dont have an answer to what is a relatively simple question!

305 Im not sure what to think anymore. All the votes and FoS's are extremely weak. It feels like pulling teeth trying to get a straight answer out of him.

308/309 ABRs recent posting is making me rethink my stance...

316 was a good post from VitR, has consolidated my townread on him.

319 LML reiterated the weak reasoning, I don't particularly have a problem voting for him at this stage.

332 SSK reappears, he disappeared fairly conveniently

341 undo asks an already answered question to UT, quite clearly already answered as well. In fact all of 341 is as scummy as hell, and whats more there is still no damn reads from him.

371 (and 4) was yet another poor vote from LML, talks about VI wagons (nat, which is total bullshit) and opportunistic early wagons... bleh, it just seems so arbitrary.

That was more productive. 2 clear scumreads in LML and undo.As of page 15, happy to vote either, but will finish reading before casting a vote.

[Untrod Tripod]

Undo is just like that, ime

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry, one more prod dodge. Friday night my main assignment ends and is my main window for being caught up/read up/and full of analysis.

[CrashTextDummie]

Shamefully, I also have to deposit a prod dodge. Underestimated my commitments. I'll get some work done in here tonight.