Mini 1578: Lord of the Rings!! - GaME OVeR

[Freja]

please dont use yellow text, its horrendous to read.

I'm not going to try to convince you why you are scummy, I've said my piece for now and your response isn't going to allow for any discussion that doesn't end up being a tunnel fest.

I'll leave it to my other head to respond if he sees fit.

[Aronis]

Not to be a jerk here, but how many games have you played? Asking cause you have a recent join date and you aren't listed as a hydra.

Even under pressure scum doesn't fake claim until they have to, it locks them into a set role which can be counter-claimed. Yes yes I know that its possible scum has a safe claim, but even so they wouldn't use until they have to, because they'd only be able to use it once.

Even if scum "leaves town in disarray" having 1 scum gone day 1 and a confused town is infinitely better than 1 town gone.

Idk. 10 or so?

In my experience, in theme games, mafia generally have a fake claim and the fact that it could be counter claimed would then defeat the purpose of it. And still, why would such an important town power role like he claimed to be claim that early anyways? So maybe there isn't any reason for scum to do that, but I don't really see any reason for town to do that.

True and while I don't believe he was doomed to die, I don't know what the idiot was thinking, even now I have no damn clue, maybe he panicked? But that is rather irrelevant, isn't it? Considering the flip and all.

Fixed.

[shos]

Votecount 2.1

ThreetoMango (0).
Protogonos (2) - guyett, snscompt1.
Bulbazak (1) - Freja
Fail Hydra (0).
snscompt1 (0).
Drew-Sta (0).
Freja (0).
RachMarie (1) - Toogeloo.
Aronis (2) - Protogonos, Drew-Sta.
Toogeloo (0).
Guyett (0).

No Lynch(0).

Not voting(5) - Aronis, RachMarie, Fail Hydra, Bulbazak, ThreetoMango.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes for a lynch/nolynch.
Deadline is in (expired on 2014-06-18 14:06:58)

Nobody is due prods.

Fun Fact #4:
Lord of the Rings is the most-grossing film series in all times, reaching almost 3

BILLION

dollars. that's fuckin' massive.

[Drew-Sta]

Drew any reason why you only voted now? Not with 185

I try not to go off half cocked. Got stuck on a tunnel in a game SNS will know about and ended up being wildly wrong.

A little more caution was my take away, and a more collaborative approach rather than being a typical gung ho Aussie.

I said as much here.

[snscompt1]

Drew is town. Thats all for now.

[Toogeloo]

case?

A little bit of speculation and gut for the most part. The Night Kill struck me as odd, so my guess was that it was a fear kill, as in someone believed that they would be easy to read against ProHawk. But I will also add, my vote feels in the right spot even more so after posts like this:

And people wonder why I hate quickwagons and quickhammers, I did not even get a chance to respond to the game because when I came back expecting more discussion I found the game was locked up tight.

I want to see some real discussion today we are behind the 8 ball here, and scum will win if we do not get our act together. I was so looking forward to the theme here because I have been an LOTR fan since I was 9 years old. So yeah I am rather annoyed with what happened yesterday which should NOT have happened.

...which I find come from scum more often than town because they want to emulate annoyance and leadership.

[RachMarie]

Nope it was genuine annoyance.

[Bulbazak]

What the bloody fuckin hell happened.

Reinoe went pants on head stupid.

FTFY

Both heads feel this strongly. The vote on Reinoe was unwarranted even as a pressure vote, with 4 votes on him and him claiming there were plenty of ways to pressure the claim without running the risk of voting out someone who claimed a role that helps scum if they get lynched. Plus, both Bulba and Aronis can't say there votes were for anything other than voting out Reinoe since they ran him to L-1 and L-2 respectively, since he already claimed a quickhammer was something they knew was a possibility.

Reinoe claimed at L-4 under little pressure, claimed unkillable (a claim so fake that it should always be lynched), yelled "Don't kill me guys! It would be really bad for town if I died!" (A mantra screamed by every dying scum ever. Not to mention that there is no evidence that this claim is real, meaning it was a genuinely scummy AtF.), and then he proceeded to hide behind his flavor claim. 9 times out of 10 that is scum, and I will proceed to lynch that crap all day every day. Instead of looking at those who recognized that as a scum move, I'd be more concerned over who strongly defended town acting that scummy, as there is definitely scum doing so for towncred. And the only reason why I'm not going to throw you in that category is because you actually towntold extremely hard during twilight, otherwise I'd be wanting your head on a pike for misrepping me as hard as you did before the thread closed.

you are responsible for putting a PRish claim to L-1 knowing a quickhammer was a definite possibility. Don't hide under the fact that Reinoe was derpy and quickhammered.

His claim was fake

and while a quickhammer may have been possible, he likely wouldn't have been quickhammered if he hadn't quickhammered himself.

How did you know at the time?

Seriously? That claim had "fake" written all over it. The only claim I have ever seen more fake than that was Yates's claim of Secret Nurse in a normal game.

Even under pressure scum doesn't fake claim until they have to, it locks them into a set role which can be counter-claimed.

You obviously have never seen newbie scum collapse under the pressure, which looks exactly like Reinoe did yesterday.

Vote Protogonos

Obvious WK was obvious.

[Freja]

counter argument for you:

as scum, a player you know to be town claims early for god knows what reason and says they're lynch gives scum an advantage. If you were already voting this player, you'd keep your vote their and let them get run out of town. If your vote was elsewhere, you'd vote for that person and hope that they got lynched.

In essence, poor town play by Reinoe gives scum a cover for getting him run out so quickly. Yeah town might bite as well since its bad play, but scum would be jumping at the bit to get on a wagon like that.

With this in mind, it seems the best place to start looking for scum is on the wagon. Why are you suspicious of people who defended Reinoe? Do you really think his wagon was all town and the scum were all white-knighting?

Also, what do you think of Aronis's answers today? Same situation as you, but he hasn't articulated his rational anywhere near as well.

[Freja]

lol how many times can i misuse instances of there/their/they're in a post : P

[Aronis]

I've got a better idea. Instead of pestering the hell out of that stupid wagon. We pretend we're restarting the game without that idiotic fool?

[Bulbazak]

counter argument for you:

as scum, a player you know to be town claims early for god knows what reason and says they're lynch gives scum an advantage. If you were already voting this player, you'd keep your vote their and let them get run out of town. If your vote was elsewhere, you'd vote for that person and hope that they got lynched.

In essence, poor town play by Reinoe gives scum a cover for getting him run out so quickly. Yeah town might bite as well since its bad play, but scum would be jumping at the bit to get on a wagon like that.

That sounds good in theory, but it rarely works in practice. Scum could also recognize the wagon as a sure thing and have allowed town to push it through, which has a high chance of happening given the way he claimed.

Why are you suspicious of people who defended Reinoe?

Because they only came forward to defend him AFTER the fact. And they were defending him HARD, which doesn't make sense given the nature of his claim and actions. Town at this point would either be berating Reinoe, or anxiously waiting the flip. Some of them would maybe even be trying to get some discussion in twilight. Defending Reinoe as town at that point, especially given his strong anti-town actions, comes across as an attempt to gain towncred after a town flip.

Do you really think his wagon was all town and the scum were all white-knighting?

I think his wagon was mostly town. If there was any scum on the wagon, I would say there was no more than one. Again, that's a wagon that scum would want to avoid once it started rolling, as town would do the work for them. I do think that at least one of Reinoe's heavy defenders are scum, and since I have a townread on you, that leaves Proto. It should be noted that scum rarely all do a certain action.

Also, what do you think of Aronis's answers today? Same situation as you, but he hasn't articulated his rational anywhere near as well.

I think they're mostly born from frustration, similar to what we saw in twilight yesterday. Actually, it's because of that reaction that I'm leaning town.

[Toogeloo]

I think Reinoe really wanted to give town the finger. His early claim was fake and I'm betting he hammed it up to continue pushing for his lynch. He flipped Frodo, but Ringbearer is obviously not unkillable considering he stated constantly that he would be coming back and questioning the host on whether the scum could night kill him the same night. Ringbearer could be anything... worse case being Cop, and if this is the case, I am automatically out of any game Reinoe is in for his poor sportsmanship play style to purposely fuck over town.

I'd like to open another avenue of discussion, which is what prompted my vote for Rach earlier. The Night Kill.

ProHawk's kill almost certainly seems ambiguous enough to assume that he was killed out of fear. Opinions?

[Aronis]

I've never played with ProHawk before, so I don't know what he's capable of, etc.

[Freja]

I think Reinoe really wanted to give town the finger. His early claim was fake and I'm betting he hammed it up to continue pushing for his lynch. He flipped Frodo, but Ringbearer is obviously not unkillable considering he stated constantly that he would be coming back and questioning the host on whether the scum could night kill him the same night. Ringbearer could be anything... worse case being Cop, and if this is the case, I am automatically out of any game Reinoe is in for his poor sportsmanship play style to purposely fuck over town.

I'd like to open another avenue of discussion, which is what prompted my vote for Rach earlier. The Night Kill.

ProHawk's kill almost certainly seems ambiguous enough to assume that he was killed out of fear. Opinions?

He only had 3 posts, so it could just as easily be a lack of info kill as well. I do think that its a little odd that scum killed someone who was on the Reinoe wagon, but it could be misdirection or something. Too much speculation = too much wifom

[Protogonos]

VOTE: Aronis for reasons I posted yesterday.

I also vehemently support a Bulb wagon. Dayvigs, act now!

So I am responsible for reinoe idiotically hammering himself?

No, q.v. my post about why that line of reasoning makes no sense.

I've got a better idea. Instead of pestering the hell out of that stupid wagon. We pretend we're restarting the game without that idiotic fool?

So, you are advocating a course of action that just happens to make a discussion of how scummy you are obsolete? Forgive me for not complying.


And Bulb, your argument against me is really, really bad. For one, I only checked this game and posted after the hammer, so it is not as if I stayed off the wagon. Second, the reinoe wagon was TERRIBLE and any competent player could see that. I was hardly WKing him because his behavior was so obviously irreconcilable with scum alignment that the possibility was not even worth considering in the first place. Abject horror gave way to an Arya Stark-esque cackling as I witnessed his self-hammer.


As I said yesterday, Aronis and Bulb should both get lynched ASAP.

[ThreetoMango]

Hi.

I know I am not mastina either
But I think I can say that the line of thinking on reinoe's scumminess is pretty much the same as ours.
I do agree with Freja that scum wouldn't let this opportunity for a mislynch go amiss so it will probs be worthwhile to look on the wagon for scum.

~MTD

[ThreetoMango]

But I think I can say that the line of thinking on reinoe's scumminess is pretty much the same as ours.

*Bulba's

[Drew-Sta]

@ Bulba

Because they only came forward to defend him AFTER the fact. And they were defending him HARD, which doesn't make sense given the nature of his claim and actions. Town at this point would either be berating Reinoe, or anxiously waiting the flip. Some of them would maybe even be trying to get some discussion in twilight. Defending Reinoe as town at that point, especially given his strong anti-town actions, comes across as an attempt to gain towncred after a town flip.

This makes a lot of sense.

If there is a correlating poster who stuck off Rein

and

defended him after the fact, then I would support a lynch on that basis.

Of course, this is if the theory holds. If I were mafia, and town had just lynched someone I knew was town, I would keep my mouth shut. There were a few people who behaved in this manner too.

[Freja]

I'm hella tired so if something doesn't make sense gramatically let me know and I'll rewrite it tomorrow.

That sounds good in theory, but it rarely works in practice. Scum could also recognize the wagon as a sure thing and have allowed town to push it through, which has a high chance of happening given the way he claimed.

It wasn't a sure thing. Wagons never are that early in the first day. Obviously Reinoe panicked and self-voted, but that doesn't mean any of the votes up to that point weren't scum motivated. I don't find the impulse to drive up Reinoe after his claim to L-1 to be particularly town motivated,

especially

given that not many people even had a chance to comment on what happened after this was done. Reinoe had enough pressure on him already.

Because they only came forward to defend him AFTER the fact. And they were defending him HARD, which doesn't make sense given the nature of his claim and actions. Town at this point would either be berating Reinoe, or anxiously waiting the flip. Some of them would maybe even be trying to get some discussion in twilight. Defending Reinoe as town at that point, especially given his strong anti-town actions, comes across as an attempt to gain towncred after a town flip.

um....
1) as said above, not many people had the chance to comment before the events to occur. A few hadn't even posted yet.
2) I'm sorry, but when someone claims FRODO w/ a potential "I give scum power if killed" thing (something pretty typical in LOTR games--ordinarily you would be right that this is someone flailing,

but not in a LOTR game

), you stop and think about the options.
3) anti-town does not equal scum
4) You seem to be making the case that Reinoe was sooooo obvscum that any town would be voting him. That is a subjective belief. As far as I'm concerned, not even a scum claim should result in a quicklynch on like...page 5.
5) Both of us have played with Reinoe before and derpiness is something you come to expect from his town game.
6) Bottom line, you and Aronis, just like Reinoe, reacted on impulse. He'd be an easy lynch. You can say "how scummy" Reinoe was as much as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that scum tend to be pretty greedy. They'll jump on as soon as they have the opportunity on a wagon like Reinoe's. Why? They can claim he was "so scummy lolz" and that we should just "forget about D1 entirely because of him!!!!" (thanks for that one, Aronis. +10 more scumpoints for you).

I think his wagon was mostly town. If there was any scum on the wagon, I would say there was no more than one. Again, that's a wagon that scum would want to avoid once it started rolling, as town would do the work for them. I do think that at least one of Reinoe's heavy defenders are scum, and since I have a townread on you, that leaves Proto. It should be noted that scum rarely all do a certain action.

I'll have to work it out with Dr Pants in terms of the 1 scum on thing. The fact that not many people had the chance to say much on this complicates my ability to read it on that particular note. I agree that scum rarely all do one action--and they also rarely play the same game approach (how many games have you seen when the scum were all lurkers or all hyper-active posters?). Disagree that it would be a wagon scum would want to avoid because, as you've said whilst defended yourself, they can just say "omgggg is so scummy how'd you not think so? Oh you must be SCUM!!!!"

What distinguishes our defense of Reinoe from Proto's?

I think they're mostly born from frustration, similar to what we saw in twilight yesterday. Actually, it's because of that reaction that I'm leaning town.

I've got a better idea. Instead of pestering the hell out of that stupid wagon. We pretend we're restarting the game without that idiotic fool?

you really think load of horse manure is simply "born from frustration?"

On Reinoe's claim: Again, there have been LOTR games with ring mechanics before. I think I even played a game when the Ring won by itself somehow. I do not think town Reinoe would lie about the fact that he had a ring that could potentially give power to the scum team. I don't think it be such a far stretch that the Ring could be something a player can possess. meh, I'll stop with the flavour theorizing.

ProHawk's kill almost certainly seems ambiguous enough to assume that he was killed out of fear. Opinions?

Do you mean killed out of fear as in "this guy is going to come after me" fear or "omg this guy's good lets get him out early" fear.

PEDIT:
@mango: number wise, do you think more scum are on or off the wagon?

-ToastyToast

[ThreetoMango]

@mango: number wise, do you think more scum are on or off the wagon?

I am unsure. As I said I would expect at least one scum on the wagon, but I wouldn't expect the whole scumteamto pile onto it, so more off I guess?

~MTD

[Bulbazak]

I'd like to open another avenue of discussion, which is what prompted my vote for Rach earlier. The Night Kill.

ProHawk's kill almost certainly seems ambiguous enough to assume that he was killed out of fear. Opinions?

Given the shortened day phase, it's hard to tell. I'd rather not speculate until we have more information that could lead to a pattern.

And Bulb, your argument against me is really, really bad. For one, I only checked this game and posted after the hammer, so it is not as if I stayed off the wagon.

That was never my argument for you being scum.

Second, the reinoe wagon was TERRIBLE and any competent player could see that.

It really was not, and I outlined why several times.

I was hardly WKing him because his behavior was so obviously irreconcilable with scum alignment that the possibility was not even worth considering in the first place.

Again, I outlined exactly why his behavior seemed indicative of scum, and 9 times out of 10 I'd have been right. You could have disagreed with the quicklynch, but then you'd have to assign blame to Reinoe, but that didn't gel with your agenda to venerate him.

Abject horror gave way to an Arya Stark-esque cackling as I witnessed his self-hammer.

This is not a town reaction.

If there is a correlating poster who stuck off Rein

and

defended him after the fact, then I would support a lynch on that basis.

Look at Proto.

I don't find the impulse to drive up Reinoe after his claim to L-1 to be particularly town motivated,

especially

given that not many people even had a chance to comment on what happened after this was done. Reinoe had enough pressure on him already.

Except it was

because

of his claim that he got those votes. As I've said multiple times, the claim was scummy on multiple levels and looked like caught scum. And L-1 would have been perfectly fine pressure-wise if Reinoe hadn't self-hammered and cut the day short.

2) I'm sorry, but when someone claims FRODO w/ a potential "I give scum power if killed" thing (something pretty typical in LOTR games--ordinarily you would be right that this is someone flailing,

but not in a LOTR game

), you stop and think about the options.

Except he didn't just say that non-chalantly. He first claimed that he was unkillable, and then he gave the classic "Don't lynch me guys or bad things will happen and the scums will win!", which is more an appeal to fear to keep from being lynched. Both of those things together meant "lynch with fire".

3) anti-town does not equal scum

I understand that. I was using the knowledge I have now to refer to Reinoe's actions. At the time they looked incredibly scummy.

4) You seem to be making the case that Reinoe was sooooo obvscum that any town would be voting him. That is a subjective belief. As far as I'm concerned, not even a scum claim should result in a quicklynch on like...page 5.

Again, the quicklynch was the fault of Reinoe and Reinoe only. If he didn't self-vote, he wouldn't have been lynched any time soon. And look at the build up of the wagon and note how many experienced players pointed to the claim as the reason. That claim really was that scummy.

5) Both of us have played with Reinoe before and derpiness is something you come to expect from his town game.

Good for you. I'm not you.

6) Bottom line, you and Aronis, just like Reinoe, reacted on impulse. He'd be an easy lynch. You can say "how scummy" Reinoe was as much as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that scum tend to be pretty greedy. They'll jump on as soon as they have the opportunity on a wagon like Reinoe's. Why? They can claim he was "so scummy lolz" and that we should just "forget about D1 entirely because of him!!!!" (thanks for that one, Aronis. +10 more scumpoints for you).

Here's a secret: When somebody makes a conf. scum claim, you lynch it. Otherwise you end up with this.

What distinguishes our defense of Reinoe from Proto's?

Proto's was stronger and only came after the hammer. You also towntold when you genuinely didn't know that scum tend to get fake claims in theme games.

I think they're mostly born from frustration, similar to what we saw in twilight yesterday. Actually, it's because of that reaction that I'm leaning town.

I've got a better idea. Instead of pestering the hell out of that stupid wagon. We pretend we're restarting the game without that idiotic fool?

you really think load of horse manure is simply "born from frustration?"

Yes.

On Reinoe's claim: Again, there have been LOTR games with ring mechanics before. I think I even played a game when the Ring won by itself somehow. I do not think town Reinoe would lie about the fact that he had a ring that could potentially give power to the scum team. I don't think it be such a far stretch that the Ring could be something a player can possess. meh, I'll stop with the flavour theorizing.

Reinoe lied about many things. Until the mod says otherwise, I'm just going to assume that he was talking out of his rectum.

[snscompt1]

Havent read any of this page yet but dear lord, I will kill the next person to post a wall of text.

[Drew-Sta]

Havent read any of this page yet but dear lord, I will kill the next person to post a wall of text.

[shos]

Lolololololol (and bump)