NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The next ~4 posts should contain votes for Bookitty.

[LoudmouthLee]

1.)

MafiaSSK, why do you believe the scum in this game do not have daytalk?

3.)

LoudmouthLee, what do you think of MafiaSSK?

4.)

LoudmouthLee, is there scum on my wagon?

5.)

LoudmouthLee, for the record, I actually spent a fair deal of time just now skimming over some of your latest games (admittedly several years old). I have indeed noted a fairly consistent pattern of you deciding that "X scum are on Y wagon" without really bothering to look at what other players are doing with their votes. While I don't agree with the concept, I will no longer consider it a point against you.

So now the question focuses on whether you are actually doing this:

It is of my opinion that content matters much less than analyzing voting patterns.

When the voting patterns lead you to choices, that's when you compare content.

I have not seen you put your own Vote Count Analysis into context (or "comparing the content"). I realize you are not currently voting for Untrod Tripod, but could you explain whether (and if so, how) you actually compared Untrod Tripod's (or Save the Dragons') voting patterns to their content?

6.)

LoudmouthLee, why do you believe that Save the Dragons' meta does not involve hopping on bandwagons? Save the Dragons essentially actually asked you this same question in Post 285.

7.)

LoudmouthLee, unfortunately I did not happen to notice any situations where you have similarly argued against a Town voting to get a player to

act

instead of voting to get a player

lynched

(e.g., the Natirasha situation). Can you link me to a game where that has happened before? If you don't believe (or can't remember) if it has come up in a game before, please say so.

Let's begin:

1) Not my question, but I find this very interesting. Perhaps I am VERY old school, but I don't remember EVER playing in a game with a day-talking Mafia. Ever. This may be my memory failing me, but I seriously cannot remember a time. Since this is Oldy Mafia, and I assume that Day Talking mafia is a new construct, what makes anyone think that it would be in this game? It's an odd speculation on everyone's behalf, and when people have too much information, there's generally a good reason (cough, scum)

3) One of the few players who, on the opening list, I never remembered playing with. I never got a very strong read, but felt null to scum based on posts. The replace-out (agreement with DGB) seems like a pro-town replace out than a scum replace out. There really wasn't any more pressure on MafiaSSK. I'm not planning on voting that slot today.

4) Maybe? Possibly? I see people distancing themselves from you quite interestingly, and I have my gut if/when you flip red.

5 and 7) ...or lack thereof? UTs vote on me, at the time, was where I wanted to place my vote for reasons outlined... All of his posts seemed to be bandwagon happy without any push to scumhunt whatsoever. As for 7, I didn't normally "broadcast" what my intentions were (by picking scum off of wagons), but God. Locus Cosecant was a very good player for that reason. He'd vote Internet Stranger without any though process, and you would quickly see the votes pile in on LC. It never failed. It was seemingly orchestrated by the scum each time, and he just dug himself deeper and deeper each time. I can't remember a game, per se. I can tell you, that I've been picking scum from VI wagons since my GL days.

6) StD's pro-town meta showed a stubbornness as town that did not seem to be shown here. I don't have links right now, and unless I get bored and have time, you probably won't get them from me now.

and 8) I'm behind on BooKitty. I'll try to read more today and give a definitive viewpoint on her later.

[undo]

Free at last! Here are my final notes on the last pages:

@Yosarian

, my question still stands: do you think VitR’s play is as weird as Glork’s (refer to my post 517)?

~~~~

Bookitty, a summary

Bookitty enters the game and hops on the biggest wagon (PJ). Then, when questioned about her stance on LML, she writes a vague and neutral post, where she basically says: He may be scum because he unvoted STD to vote UT for the same reason [not entirely true, and not exactly a scumtell]; he may be town because people are voting him without reason [so she doesn’t think he’s town because of his own actions].

Then she proceeds with her analysis of the whole game (posts 560, 566 and 572), where the only open suspicion she states is on PJ. The feeling we get is that she went through the whole game just to gather everything she could to corroborate her vote. Besides that, she almost only talks assertively about her townreads -- like Shanba and SSK, now mathcam -- or the posts she likes.

There’s only one post she openly “HATES”, a post from LML in response to VitaminR. Actually, there’s an interesting coupling going on between Bookitty and VitaminR:

VitaminR starts attracting some votes, I don’t really get why

Okay, I HATE this: Post 279 VitaminR makes some really good points about LML and instead of saying anything relevant back, he says: "To be completely fair again, a LOT of people went alone with two weak wagons. Hell, some of the people you've quite ignored have actually BEEN on 3 or 4 wagons thus far. Why have they earned a pass from you?" To me that's deflection. That's scummy and I didn't notice it before or I forgot it. VitaminR and LML go back and forth and VitaminR wins that.

chamber, what is your issue with Bookitty? I feel like she's been pretty on the money with her posts about PJ (especially Post 495 is basically exactly why I'm voting PJ).

I'm still not really getting what's so scummy about Bookitty's recent posts, perhaps because I mostly agree with her. I guess she seems nervous, but that could just be replacement jitters.

Speaking of “replacement jitters”… There's another thing that draws attention into Bookitty’s posts:

I hadn't thought about it the way Glork did, but

the truth is that Glork is a better scumhunter than I am. (I'm sure those who have played with me before will back me up on this.)

And no, you don't need to worry about being condescending,

I don't have a huge ego about my scumhunting prowess

.

I just got here. Do you truly expect someone who replaced in late on Friday night to have had time to do what you suggest?

Sorry for the delay in responding

.

Yes, I’m nervous

. I haven’t played for several years, I’m rusty and I am playing with people whose opinions I value. It’s an unnerving combination.

I don’t want to make a fool of myself.

I’m not alone in finding this game hard to figure out and hard to remember

.

Is it okay if I continue this? It's really helpful to me in remembering all my reasons for why I thought things, so I'm going to do it anyway.

But if you want me not to post these ungodly long blocks of text, I can stop whenever.

The cherry:

Oh, someone asked me if I hated playing scum (I don’t remember who and my head is too fuzzy to go looking through the thread for it) –

the answer is yeah, I don’t like playing scum. I prefer doing long analysis thingies and trying to pick out connections. It’s mostly something I’m better at after a few flips, though.

I mean, there’s “replacement jitters” and there’s straight appeal to emotion. These are levels of insecurity I don’t expect from a person who has played her fair share of mafia games – unless she is scum, of course.

~~~~

And now for Mathcam

Mathcam’s entrance is another fragile one. Let’s look at his first post (587):

• After rereading the whole thread, he chooses to keep his predecessor’s vote (which is based on a weak reasoning):

  So I'm happy with SSK's vote on CES, even if I disagree with some of how he got there. I'll leave it there with the hope that there's some agreement or discussion on this topic, and we work on moving the bandwagons here.

• He’s afraid to post his town reads on people:

  I have a list of people I think are probably town, but I'm not sure it does anyone any good to reveal them

• And he’s unable to explain his “slight” scumreads:

  I have slight scum reads on both LML and BooKitty […], though I can't say that I can particularly well point to places in the text where either have said anything that really triggered a negative reaction from me

And suddenly, in his following post (594), after a clarification on CES by VitaminR, his slight scumread on Bookitty turns into a vote (on the biggest bandwagon of the game) with no further explanation:

Ahhhhh. Apparently, along with MafiaSSK's role, apparently I also inherited his failed sarcasmometer. Oops.
Unvote: CES, Vote: BooKitty

~~~~

I thought whether I should keep my vote on mathcam or switch it to Bookitty. I still hold mathcam as a top suspect, because MafiaSSK theories+mathcam’s expressed reluctance to assuming his stances is a killer combo. But Bookitty has the most momentum going on, so VOTE: Bookitty. If a matcham wagon forms during the following days, though, I’m there. (Also, if someone was going to ask, I don’t think the fact that he is voting for Bookitty changes anything)

[Glork]

Vote: petroleumjelly

[Bookitty]

I’m feeling much better today. Hi ABR, DGB and Shanba! <3

I sat down to start on my PBPA again (with grim determination) and I suddenly realized something. Short of a scum lynch, my lynch is probably the best single information lynch for the town. I’ve interacted with just about everyone. After my flip you can go back and read everything I posted with certain knowledge of my alignment.

We need a lynch now, in my opinion. The pace of the game is slowing down and people are starting to have Day 1 fatigue. I think mine is the most likely wagon at the moment (I haven’t seen a vote count recently, but at a guess that’s right) and I think you need to push it to its conclusion.

After my lynch, though, I would ask that you actually look at the people I pointed to and reexamine their postings carefully. Think about why PJ would be so reluctant to give any information to town and would react so negatively to suggestions that he should. Look at the votes on my wagon and the reasons given for them; did they make sense?

Anyway, this all to say I’m good with being lynched. I don’t think it’s great that the day drag on and on, so if any of you were swayed by my “appeals to emotion” (end sarcasm) don’t be. We need to move on and I’m willing to be the lynch if it gets that accomplished.

[Glork]

Can you go ahead and claim so we can get to lynching Pj?

[Bookitty]

Sure, I'm VT.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I completely disagree with lynching Bookitty. If she's killed, I will hold those voting her responsible.

PJ needs to eat rope immediately.

[Patrick]

Votecount

LoudmouthLee (2) -- Green Crayons, Yosarian2
Kublai Khan (1) -- MrBuddyLee
mathcam (1) -- CrashTextDummie
Bookitty (9) -- Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber, Untrod Tripod, Save the Dragons, petroleumjelly, mathcam, undo
petroleumjelly (5) -- Albert B. Rampage, VitaminR, LoudmouthLee, Bookitty, Glork
Porochaz (1) -- Zorblag
Untrod Tripod (1) -- DrippingGoofball

Not voting: Kublai Khan, Porochaz
22 alive, 12 to lynch.

[Green Crayons]

Thought about it. Did a bit of reading. I agree with ABR in re: Bookitty.

[Green Crayons]

Seol suspicions don't strike me as compelling, either, since his 4 posts out of 25 pages does not compel me to lynch the slot. Particularly in light of more compelling targets.


I think Yos mentioned that PJ's play in this game is akin to PJ's typical play style. Would like a confirm/deny on that point if anyone else has insight.

[mathcam]

Undo: It strikes me that your last post on me was taking things I said and then claiming as though these were observations you sussed out from my post. The only difference is that you replace charitable ones with uncharitable ones (e.g., "I don't think revealing my town reads would be helpful" vs. "mathcam is afraid to reveal his town reads", and "here is one scumread I can't justify" to "mathcam can't even justify his slight scumreads").

FOS: Undo

for that.

I'm still fine lynching BooKitty -- I agree with her that she's a good information lynch, and that we need to get the game moving. If we lose a VT, we lose a VT.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I don't care that you're still fine lynching Bookitty. She's town and you should feel bad.

[Yosarian2]

I still think that both the Bookitty wagon and the PJ wagon look very weak. I'd be surprised if either one of them flipped scum.

[Yosarian2]

@Yosarian, my question still stands: do you think VitR’s play is as weird as Glork’s (refer to my post 517)?

Meh. VitR's play doesn't look especially weird.

[Yosarian2]

I'm still fine lynching BooKitty -- I agree with her that she's a good information lynch, and that we need to get the game moving. If we lose a VT, we lose a VT.

What information do you think we get if we lynch BooKitty?

Let's say, hypothetically speaking, we lynch her and she flips VT (which I think we both agree is the most likely outcome at this point). In that case, who would you want to lynch tomorrow based on the BooKitty wagon?

[MrBuddyLee]

@PJ

, is this approximately an accurate summary of your expressed opinions of who might be scum (at the time you were voting for them)--

"MafiaSSK says things he doesn't believe and is hyperbolic."

"VitR is wrong about the parity issue and is dancing around discussion, thus somewhat scummish"

"Glork is somewhat superficial, misleading and strawmanny"

"LML's votecount analysis was so bad as to be scummy, and while defending himself uses details he denies those he analyzes."

"Bookitty's posts seem to have an agenda, which is not as neutral as I'd expect from a townie."

Anyone you find significantly scummy missing from that list? How serious are your suspicions of Glork and VitR?

Also, a comment on:

I am sensing that she is writing it with an agenda in mind (and probably an agenda towards more players than simply myself...)

The PJ I know would probably turn that "probably" into short lists of people Bookitty is treating unfairly and people she's treating preferentially (by twist or omission). If you have time, can you please take a stab at that? It would help allay my concerns that your read of Bookitty primarily concerns her comments on you.

@Bookitty

, what's your current stance on LML, and who else do you find scummy besides PJ? It currently appears that you expect we're up against a one man scumteam--townreads seem to be coming awfully easy to you right now. Also, your skepticism seems focused towards those who currently have votes on them.

also, I believe this was re: the LML wagon:

I hadn't thought about it the way Glork did, but the truth is that Glork is a better scumhunter than I am.

Did you discount the possibility that Glork might be scum attempting to mislead you, or did you find his argument in this instance impeccable?

[Save The Dragons]

Bookitty is scum because:

A) Seol was suspicious.
Seol jumped on an easy wagon hiding behind a rhetoric reason that seemed like low-hanging fruit. I've beaten this point to death, and I still feel like some of those people are scum.

Seol then posts next to nothing. It's early enough in the day. He evades detection. The wagon fizzles. whether he just completely crapped out or whether he wanted to lie low, I can't really say.

Stuff like this:

So I'll ask a seemingly useless question right back at you as you did to Tigris: Why is my (mostly theory based) opinion on bandwagons scummy enough to warrant a vote?

Because it favours scum. Either you're wrong or you're scum (with an inclusive or), and in a game full of experienced players, I give less credence to being wrong.

is simply justification to grab that low hanging fruit: "the theory he's spewing is bad, but since he's supposed to be smart, his bad theory is likely due to him being scum."

But to be honest, in the same post he points out the following about MafiaSSK

The arguments against CES are super,

super

stretching: he hasn't said nearly enough to read in that level of intent, and taking what he has said at face value is just disingenuous.

That's bad, but particularly so in that the theme of 156 is "this is why pushing RVS wagons is good: look at all the info we can get from it" - but that info is nonsense. It feels like artificial suspicion, like he's decided he needs to attack the people who were late on the wagon and then, given that, constructed reasons to suspect them.

Which is accurate. At this point I don't agree that MafiaSSK's behavior is scummy, but it is a bit out there and I can see both scum hungry for the easy lynch and townies falling into that trap.

Overall I don't think it's damning but I am leaning towards Seol being scum.

In 466 Bookitty basically defends LML. (This is bad because LML is scum too but I know not everyone agrees with me yet so I won't dwell on that).

Then there's this post.

Is LML a town read for you at this point? I'm getting the real feel of having your cake and eating it too so I would like you to clarify your opinion on him.

LML is a null-leaning-scum read for me. The scum part is:

He pulls his vote off STD and then votes UT for the EXACT SAME thing. His VCA actually shows that. I realize he's only got one vote, but why switch it at the point he does and then blame it on his VCA? That's not reading honest to me. STD ducked my question on that, but I would be interested to know how STD sees that move. To me, it was the scummiest thing LML did all game and it made me look hard at STD as a result.

The town part is:

I've read the game several times over the last few days. I still don't have it down, but I guess that's normal for a large game. But I notice that LML is the target of choice for a lot of people with not a lot of reasoning. I hadn't thought about it the way Glork did, but the truth is that Glork is a better scumhunter than I am. (I'm sure those who have played with me before will back me up on this.) I just gave my reason for thinking he might be scum; so far as I recall, I'm the only one who noted that exact thing. (I could be wrong on that, but I don't remember reading anyone on LML's wagon and saying, AHA, you think what *I* think.) The reasons given aren't as good as that one in my eyes, which makes me think that some of the people on LML's wagon are scum without real motivation except finding a convenient wagon. Which, in turn, makes me think that LML might be town after all.

For me the disconcerning part is that she seems to think I'm suspicious because:

4.)

Why, if LoudmouthLee's switch to Untrod Tripid was scummy, did LoudmouthLee's Vote Count Analysis "make you look hard" at Save the Dragons as a result? Were you looking for potential LoudmouthLee and Save the Dragons connections?

(at this point I don't think she's going to answer so I'm going to stop biting my tongue).

She seems to imply guilt by association, then removes the scumminess off of LML. She then spends some time in her PBPA to build a case against me, even though she no longer thinks LML is scum, so I'm not sure why she thinks I'm scum. The case she builds on me is highly inaccurate to fact.

From my point of view, she seemed to want to decide I was scum and attack me before constructing evidence for it, which makes me quite curious.

Another reason she seems to think that LML and I are scum together is because of the way LML stopped voting for me (which again is weird if she thinks LML is town). The thing about that is it selectively ignores LML's argument about UT jumping on the Nat wagon. Had she outright dismissed it, then maybe I would be less irked, but she mentioned that the reasoning LML voted for me and for UT was exactly the same, when in his post, it's clear that it isn't.

I don't know. To me it seems like she picked a target and then tried to justify it, which I think is pretty much the same reason PJ is voting for her (except for how she did it to PJ).

Honestly, take your pick of reasons to vote for Bookitty.

[Save The Dragons]

I don't care that you're still fine lynching Bookitty. She's town and you should feel bad.

You seem to spend a lot of time protecting the people I think are scum and not a lot of time explaining why they're not. Your argument that everyone else is town because PJ is scum doesn't really do anything for me.

----

6) StD's pro-town meta showed a stubbornness as town that did not seem to be shown here. I don't have links right now, and unless I get bored and have time, you probably won't get them from me now.

The beginnings of a rebuttal are 400 posts overdue.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, a question to whoever: have any of the major wagons in this game felt like they experienced more or less resistance than they should have at the time, given the strength of the case and the strength of the cases on competing wagons? I have my thoughts, will be glad to share but don't want to taint the pool before anyone else has a chance to think about/answer this.

[Albert B. Rampage]

The case against Seol is laughably weak. He put some votes early on and absented himself after that. BIG DEAL. You carry that over to Bookitty and tear her apart for actually trying to contribute to the game. Keep pretending Bookitty is scummy, she's not. She is plainly and clearly what she says she is; a VT. Have you been so long away from this game that intuitive reasoning and you have split paths? Get your act together.

Yosarian, what are you talking about!??!

[Save The Dragons]

This town has had trouble getting it up.

I feel that's pretty much been across the board, except for Bookitty's wagon. I don't recall any above 6 or 7 votes. I'm not sure if that's due to a cautious town or people just not being able to come to a consensus.

[Save The Dragons]

The case against Seol doesn't disappear just because he gets replaced.

Telling me I suck at mafia isn't really going to get your point across any better, it tells me that you don't have a good reason so you have to resort to ad hominem.

Am I wrong?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Sotty, you really don't belong on this bandwagon. Out, please.

The rest of the Bookitty bandwagon looks like the Batman Rogues Gallery. Literally the scummiest players in the game. 2-3 scum right there.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm shocked that you think that Bookitty scum would amiably resign herself to town players lynching her because "it would yield information as she's interacted with everyone". And just claim VT like that. That's nonsensical. Keep scumhunting, keep the day going, and lynch someone else, like PJ.