Mini 1578: Lord of the Rings!! - GaME OVeR

[Drew-Sta]

Also:

UNVOTE: Drew
VOTE: Proto

I genuinely believe he is a dud.

[Fail Hydra]

I'm thinking the doublevote comes from a mechanic whose name escapes me. Basically the ring is an object being passed on to a new person each night and whoever has the ring during the day gets their vote to count for two.

Freya, Bulba and Aronis are all town. I think Proto is also town, my other head believes he's scum.

Rach is my biggest scum read, for this:

I want to see some real discussion today we are behind the 8 ball here, and scum will win if we do not get our act together. I was so looking forward to the theme here because I have been an LOTR fan since I was 9 years old. So yeah I am rather annoyed with what happened yesterday which should NOT have happened.

And then saying this:

Ok if the mod says its accurate, it is accurate, let's move on peeps.

Telling people to move on isn't how you get discussion.

And also the only things she's commented on is the vote against her which she seems to be overreacting to.

VOTE: RachMarie

Rach, who are your biggest scum reads right now?

--Piggy--

[Protogonos]

if this was your thought, how come you didn't say so in the first place?

Why would I share that off the bat? It would have defeated the purpose of asking whether there was a doublevoter or something.

[RachMarie]

Discussion yes, outing another PR No. It is not in our best interest to out any more PRs if we have them.

How can you compare that with wanting more discussion that actually HELPS town?

[RachMarie]

Actually I was amused not outraged. Dude is going for the low hanging fruit and totally ignoring my meta.

[Bulbazak]

Everything about what you are saying sounds rotten. You have such certainty in your cases. The game is black and white for you.

I've learned it's best to have certainty in my pushes, otherwise no pressure is exerted, and I lose any ability I have to sort things. I'll take certainty in my reads over being wishy-washy any day.

Players who didn't fuck up are the only scum candidates?

I didn't say that. This is a massive misrep of my points.

It was reasonable for Reinoe's wagon to be entirely town driven?

Yes. See this game for why.

I'll make this point again since you've conveniently forgotten it: a town claims PR and acts all kinds of stupid. As scum, how do you not go for that?

By realizing that town are going to look at that wagon the next day. If town is going to do your job for you, why join?

For you to suggest that the wagon was town driven is absurdly stupid, and convenient for you.

It's not convenient, just based off experience.

Even if you thought Reinoe's play was bad enough to get town on his wagon, knowing that he claimed a PR why would you assume scum stayed away?

Because scum don't like to lynch PR claims. They like to NK them. PR claims scare scum away from wagons, because they know that person is town and know how much scrutiny that wagon is going to be under. It'd be way easier to use that wagon to line up mislynches, rather than to be on it themselves.

That's a strong statement to make and you have no evidence to back it up.

Read Indie Game and pay attention to the Who wagon.

Because not only did you WK Reinoe hard, but you did so at a time when that action would have zero effect on the Reinoe wagon.

There was no other point

to the action than to come back later and go "See! See! I called him town!" and get towncred.

This argument is total bollocks. You are simply asserting that my motivation was X and then saying I am scummy because X is scummy. My point in posting was to point out a bad wagon. You are mixing up necessary and sufficient conditions here. You can read scum intent into most things; that does not mean it is actually there.

A lot of good it did if that person was already a dead man walking...

You don't have the same knowledge I have, because all the evidence indicated that Reinoe was scum.

This is simply not true.

Really? Let's ignore hindsight. What evidence was there that showed Reinoe being town that couldn't also be explained by him being panicky newb scum?

And if I really am scum, like you say, how could you be calling me incompetent in regards to my Reinoe read? Wouldn't I have been pushing him purposely if I was scum as you claim?

Yes, and your push was blatantly horrible. For either alignment, your actions betrayed incompetence.

Again, there's a massive amount of cognitive dissonance here. If I was scum, then I was doing my job by pushing that wagon. The only way I could be incompetent was if I was town, and even then, I'm having a hard time seeing it, as in most cases, those actions are more likely to come from scum than town.

All the more reason to lynch you. You should know better than to be spouting what you are.

Actually, it should be no surprise that I'm spouting what I am, and any experienced player in my place would be saying the same. That's part of why I'm thinking you're scum: The WKing and ignoring of why Reinoe looked so scummy to begin with. You want to make excuses for him and absolve him of any responsibility he had in his own lynch and push it elsewhere, all so you can score some mislynches.

I've seen enough scum quickhammer to know that this is not the case.

See, our experiences differ yet again! I have never, ever seen scum do what reinoe did. At least out of panic.

Fuzzybutternut.

I never said I opposed the lynch. I just didn't want it to happen so fast.

Now you know not to increase the speed of a wagon after a claim until others have at least posted if you do not actually want to take the risk of your vote contributing to a fast lynch.

I thought you were saying I was scum? How then are you rebuking me as if I was town?

To put a number on it, half of my games current games have had quickhammers or even hammers without claims.

Stop playing in Newbies.

Blame =/= responsibility. I blame reinoe for his self-hammer. Anyone who voted after his claim is partially responsible for his lynch.

Maybe, but that still doesn't mean that they didn't have good reason for voting Reinoe or that they wanted the day to end that quickly.

I'll start from page 12 onward when I have more time later tonight.

[Fail Hydra]

Actually I was amused not outraged. Dude is going for the low hanging fruit and totally ignoring my meta.

Why are you so focused on your own meta? If everyone used their meta as a sole reason why they're scum or not, there wouldn't be a game.

Also, you didn't answer my question. Noted.

--Piggy--

[RachMarie]

because I am still catching up, duh

[RachMarie]

ThreetoMango (1) - Drew-Sta.
Protogonos (0).
Bulbazak (0).
Fail Hydra (0).
snscompt1 (0).
Drew-Sta (0).
Freja (0).
RachMarie (0).
reinoe (7) - ThreetoMango, Guyett, ProHawk, Toogeloo, Bulbazak, Aronis, reinoe - LYNCH.
ProHawk (1) - RachMarie.
Aronis (0).
Toogeloo (0).
Guyett (1) - Freja.

No Lynch(0).

Not voting(3) - snscompt1, Fail Hydra, Protogonos.

There was probably at least one on and at least one off the wagon

On the wagon

ThreetoMango,
Guyett,
Toogeloo,
Bulbazak,
Aronis,


Off the wagon

Not voting at all

snscompt1,
Fail Hydra,
Protogonos

Voting RVS and not changing over to serious due to speed of lynch
Rach

Voting for others.
Drew
Freja

I feel especially after his silly stunt with the voting thingy that most likely Drew is town, even though the stunt was anti-town, I do not see the motivation for scum to do that and draw such attention this early in the game.

I have a good feeling that Mango is town, and I think that even though he is barking up the wrong tree, that toog is most likely town as well. So I am going to ISO the others and figure out which one is scum.

I know I am town.

I will also ISO the three who were not voting at all, not even their RVS vote.

Will ISO Freja to make sure it was not a situation like mine just not time to get back on to change their vote.

BTW had I been on I would have NOT voted for Reinoe because I seriously doubt any of the hobbits would be a fake claim nor likely to be a real scum. I think it is more likely the scum have real scum names and have been provided with fake claims most likely of minor characters, that has been my experience with theme games.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulbazak: I think one of the scummiest things you have done after the wagon is your attempts to discredit people who disagreed with the Reinoe lynch. For example, you go after Proto for his "lack of experience" and insist he listen to the "more experienced" players who know how obvscum Reinoe's claim was.

So, I have 3 statements/questions for you:
1) I have WAY more experience than most of this playerlist, and yet I see the wagon as incredibly shitty. Additionally, I think town would admit that they fucked up, and try to move on from it, rather than do their utmost to prove to people that "you were in the right," so to speak. Anyone who was actually right about Reinoe becomes suspicious (which is idiotic for numerous reasons), and anyone who was wrong is "justified."

2) Who the hell are you to dictate what a player ought to think? Who the hell is Guyett to try to get me to move onto a vote I disagree with? Trying to convince someone of the value of a lynch through case work is fine, but not when it becomes a

demand.

3) Since when has just listening to people with "experience" been a good strategy? Seriously, its like newbie game 101 to challenge people and their beliefs regardless of their alleged skill.

All I see is you being butt hurt. But I also have to admit that I got carried away in my zeal of pursuing Proto. When I have an intense scumread on a slot, like I do now, I sometimes go for the jugular. It's an aspect of my play I'm trying to change, but there are times when I slip right back into it, as Mastin can attest.

I sware to god this town is so fucking stupid. So is the goal to get as many mislynches as possible as fast as possible? Because I must say, you're doing pretty good.

Why are you referring to town in the third person, somewhat indicating you aren't part of them?

Why the face palm?

I'll explain after Aronis responds.

I haven't yet felt that Proto is scummy. His behavior about WKing Reinoe seems fine enough given the time frame at which it happened, after Reinoe self hammered,
I also haven't yet seen the case on Bulba being scum. I feel like it's basically town v. town here, especially considering how stale the rest of the content seems to be.

How was his WKing of Reinoe fine?

Instead of trying to prove your reads, you and Bulba are both being manipulative.

I'm sorry that you find evidence and logic to be manipulative.

Ok if the mod says its accurate, it is accurate, let's move on peeps.

Uh...no. I have no desire to move on. I think it is worth investigating why I have four votes. There is no reason for a town doublevoter or hidden voter not to disclose that fact.

Why is it that both you and Sns are so concerned over a double voter?

none of you is a double voter. quick vca from yesterday confirms this.
one option Toast mentioned to me was we might have a motivator. this would explain the extra vote, if someone was actually a dv they'd have to be stupid to put themselves in such a small wagon so early in the game.

A motivator will only allow a player to perform an extra night action, not vote twice the next day.

[Freja]

And so Bulba continues to be dismissive.

"evidence" and "logic." rofl. I don't even know if you're even worth my time anymore.

The same role exists where a player can give another an extra vote, I've played with one before, so what's your point?

[Bulbazak]

And so Bulba continues to be dismissive.

I don't see how it's being dismissive. I've explained things thoroughly several times. You're just so far into conf. bias territory that you're not listening.

The same role exists where a player can give another an extra vote, I've played with one before, so what's your point?

It was probably a custom role then. I'm just saying what Motivators tend to do. I doubt Shos would be using a custom version of that role in this game.

[Toogeloo]

How was his WKing of Reinoe fine?

Because it came off more like "hurr durr this is funny" rather than "you guys are morons, he was obvious town."

[Aronis]

I'm here and might try to catch up.

[Aronis]

I sware to god this town is so fucking stupid. So is the goal to get as many mislynches as possible as fast as possible? Because I must say, you're doing pretty good.

Why are you referring to town in the third person, somewhat indicating you aren't part of them?

Well, I was catching up, but then I saw this and was reminded why I didn't want to mess with this. So maybe tomorrow. If you need anything super important just use bolded, underlined, huge, bright red letters and I might see it.

[Drew-Sta]

I sware to god this town is so fucking stupid. So is the goal to get as many mislynches as possible as fast as possible? Because I must say, you're doing pretty good.

Why are you referring to town in the third person, somewhat indicating you aren't part of them?

Well, I was catching up, but then I saw this and was reminded why I didn't want to mess with this. So maybe tomorrow. If you need anything super important just use bolded, underlined, huge, bright red letters and I might see it.

Errr, whut?

Its a simple question, mate. Why are you referring to town in the third person.

[Bulbazak]

How was his WKing of Reinoe fine?

Because it came off more like "hurr durr this is funny" rather than "you guys are morons, he was obvious town."

We're obviously reading different games, because that's exactly what he did, only in this case he tried to venerate Reinoe and started lining up lynches based on the wagon before the flip even went through.

[Protogonos]

Wall:

Spoiler:

A lot of good it did if that person was already a dead man walking...

I enjoyed posting it. That is good enough for me. I would suggest it had other utility as well.

Really? Let's ignore hindsight. What evidence was there that showed Reinoe being town that couldn't also be explained by him being panicky newb scum?

Again, just because he could be explained by his being newb scum does not mean that it is equally plausible that he was scum. My unequivocal impression was that he was town.

Again, there's a massive amount of cognitive dissonance here. If I was scum, then I was doing my job by pushing that wagon.

Competent scum generally do not push terrible wagons that will lead to suspicion of its members.

Actually, it should be no surprise that I'm spouting what I am, and any experienced player in my place would be saying the same.

You are obviously grossly unqualified to state that there is some objectively correct interpretation of reinoe's actions.

That's part of why I'm thinking you're scum: The WKing and ignoring of why Reinoe looked so scummy to begin with.

At no point did he look scummy to me, even as I read through the game the very first time.

You want to make excuses for him and absolve him of any responsibility he had in his own lynch and push it elsewhere, all so you can score some mislynches.

I never excused him of any responsibility. I simply acknowledged that the responsibility was not solely his.

And given that your track record in this game is a clusterfuck mislynch of an obvtown player, maybe you should be more reserved in your predictions of what my actions will produce.

I thought you were saying I was scum? How then are you rebuking me as if I was town?

Insert the conditional yourself.

Why is it that both you and Sns are so concerned over a double voter?

I want to know whether that vote is controlled by scum (likely through the Ring) or town. That seems like useful info to me.

How was his WKing of Reinoe fine?

Because it came off more like "hurr durr this is funny" rather than "you guys are morons, he was obvious town."

We're obviously reading different games, because that's exactly what he did, only in this case he tried to venerate Reinoe and started lining up lynches based on the wagon before the flip even went through.

You are both correct; the amusement dimension that Toogeloo mentions was certainly there.

[shos]

Votecount 2.5

ThreetoMango (0).
Protogonos (4) - guyett, Bulbazak, Drew-Sta.
Bulbazak (1) - Freja.
Fail Hydra (0).
snscompt1 (0).
Drew-Sta (0).
Freja (0).
RachMarie (2) - Toogeloo, Fail Hydra.
Aronis (2) - Protogonos, snscompt1.
Toogeloo (0).
Guyett (0).

No Lynch(0).

Not voting(3) - Aronis, RachMarie, ThreetoMango.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes for a lynch/nolynch.
Deadline is in (expired on 2014-06-18 14:06:58)

Nobody has been prodded yet, since Aronis was V/LA.

Mod note: PLEASE keep your walls inside spoilers like 342.

Fun Fact #9:
One of the effects the One Ring had on its wearers was that their hearing was sharpened.

[Bulbazak]

Really? Let's ignore hindsight. What evidence was there that showed Reinoe being town that couldn't also be explained by him being panicky newb scum?

Again, just because he could be explained by his being newb scum does not mean that it is equally plausible that he was scum. My unequivocal impression was that he was town.

Not going to answer. Just like I thought.

Again, there's a massive amount of cognitive dissonance here. If I was scum, then I was doing my job by pushing that wagon.

Competent scum generally do not push terrible wagons that will lead to suspicion of its members.

A point that I've already made. So are you calling me incompetent scum? Or are you just floundering because you ended up backing yourself into a corner with that original statement?

You are obviously grossly unqualified to state that there is some objectively correct interpretation of reinoe's actions.

Maybe, but I know what it looked like at the time, and I have no idea how you magically got the opposite impression but yet can't be bothered to explain. Heck, I spelled out point for point why I thought he was scum. The only answer you could be bothered to give for your oh so strong townread was gut.

I never excused him of any responsibility. I simply acknowledged that the responsibility was not solely his.

For someone who is not excusing him of any responsibility, you sure do like to talk about how it's not his fault and everyone else's.

And given that your track record in this game is a clusterfuck mislynch of an

obvtown player

, maybe you should be more reserved in your predictions of what my actions will produce.

Please do go on about how Reinoe was obv. town.

I want to know whether that vote is controlled by scum (likely through the Ring) or town. That seems like useful info to me.

Double voters tend to be town, so that seems like rolefishing to me.

[Toogeloo]

Could just as easily be a Vote Thief or Vote Buyer.

It could be a scum team of two members and one of them is a Double Voter.

It could be a hidden mechanic dealing with yesterday's lynch or last night's targeting mechanics.

Suffice to say, unless someone comes forward to claim they know what it is, speculating on what it could be is rather pointless. Just assume that L-1 isn't a safe place for someone to be.

[Aronis]

I sware to god this town is so fucking stupid. So is the goal to get as many mislynches as possible as fast as possible? Because I must say, you're doing pretty good.

Why are you referring to town in the third person, somewhat indicating you aren't part of them?

Well, I was catching up, but then I saw this and was reminded why I didn't want to mess with this. So maybe tomorrow. If you need anything super important just use bolded, underlined, huge, bright red letters and I might see it.

Errr, whut?

Its a

simple

stupid question, mate. Why are you referring to town in the third person.

Fixed. Anyways, who really cares?

[Drew-Sta]

I sware to god this town is so fucking stupid. So is the goal to get as many mislynches as possible as fast as possible? Because I must say, you're doing pretty good.

Why are you referring to town in the third person, somewhat indicating you aren't part of them?

Well, I was catching up, but then I saw this and was reminded why I didn't want to mess with this. So maybe tomorrow. If you need anything super important just use bolded, underlined, huge, bright red letters and I might see it.

Errr, whut?

Its a

simple

stupid question, mate. Why are you referring to town in the third person.

Fixed. Anyways, who really cares?

Grade A wanker right here people.

Its important because you slipped up, dickhead. Now you're trying to bully your way out of it.

More than one person cares.

[RachMarie]

It is actually a great question. Because it is unusual for townies not to say us or in some other way show thought patterns that indicate they are part of town.

That my friend, is what we call a scum slip you thinking of town as THEM and not US.

VOTE: Aronis

[Toogeloo]

Aronis never said "THEM."

It's obvious he's using town as the collective group of players, including the Mafia. Please can we kill Rach now?