Mini 1578: Lord of the Rings!! - GaME OVeR

[Aronis]

If you flip town, then Fail Hydra, Proto, and sns. But the vig still hasn't claimed, so idk about that.

[ThreetoMango]

I am double voter, discuss

Why weren't you a double-voter D1, Guyett?

[ThreetoMango]

I didn't use it at all d1 and spwnt most of day 2 using that vote wherever Drew voted to make it look like he was double voter.

Okay, nevermind the first question.

Why were you trying to effectively pin Drew-sta as the double-voter?

[ThreetoMango]

So you think protos and FH are scum and you think I am scum How many scum do you think are this game?

No, I quite explicitly think Proto is town and that you and FailHydra are both scum.

Normally, when you're town, Rach, I can feel it.
This game, I'm not feeling it.
And am feeling the opposite, even.

FailHydra's posting seems like scum, as do interactions.
Your interactions haven't been the best either.

[ThreetoMango]

there are still too many PRs around. if we mislynch today we are guaranteed to have multiple claimed PRs at lylo. If theres a fake claim we dont have time to figure it out.

Thing is, each and every one of the claims looks town.

It's possible they're balanced by town negative utility (Frodo might be, Smeagol would be) and strong scum PRs.

But we're not faking.
Guyett's power is confirmed and I derped in not remembering Aronis's result confirms his alignment, too.
Your alignment's confirmed as well.
Aronis looks town.

I mean, if there's a scum in the PR claims, it's going to be Aronis, but I don't think there is.

[ThreetoMango]

And when I flip town as Pippin, who will you look at then?

sns. Everyone else looks quite solidly town.

I do think it's FailHydra and yourself, though.

Makes sense off of D2.

Probably makes sense off of D1, though I haven't reread that.

[Aronis]

Because I am clueless, who should I investigate tonight? A pool of players will work, I just don't want to get griped at.

[Freja]

Alright, people. Here are a few thoughts:

1) Stop assuming that all these claimed roles MUST be town. Obviously at least one is fake. Else this game would be unbalanced.
2) Stop assuming that flavor=allignment. Flavor cops are essentially weaker because they

don't

give alignment. A mod who gives one to town isn't going to be like "lawl I'll just make orcs scum and everyone else will be easy!" I'd say at least one scum can trick the rolecop in some way. Think scum godfather but where the name revealed when checked is Merry or Pippin.
3) At this point, everyone should just claim. Names included. If we have names then flavor cop can do his work.

Also I'd like to address this piece of crap:

there are still too many PRs around. if we mislynch today we are guaranteed to have multiple claimed PRs at lylo. If theres a fake claim we dont have time to figure it out.

Thing is, each and every one of the claims looks town.

It's possible they're balanced by town negative utility (Frodo might be, Smeagol would be) and strong scum PRs.

But we're not faking.
Guyett's power is confirmed and I derped in not remembering Aronis's result confirms his alignment, too.
Your alignment's confirmed as well.
Aronis looks town.

I mean, if there's a scum in the PR claims, it's going to be Aronis, but I don't think there is.

Not only are you whining, but do you seriously think a scum PR would claim VT? Do you realize how risky that is?

There are scum among the claimed PR's. Why are you trying to create the false belief that scum wouldn't hide among a wealth of PR claims? WHy do you think the mod wouldn't give scum fake PR claims?

JUST BECAUSE A POWER IS CONFIRMED DOES NOT MAKE THAT PERSON AUTO-TOWN.

I have played games with scum bodyguards, scum flavor cops, and scum double voters. In fact, these are some of the scummiest PR's available. Like, whats worse? Role blocker and maybe hider.

So the question is, why is a 3-slotted head trying to put doubt in what should be a clear fact? A 3-headed slot with people I

know

have played with such roles as scum. Oh, that's because it helps keep a target off their back. Mango has one of the worst interactions with Bulba--which is what town

should

be looking at rather than getting overwhelmed by PR claims and default easy-lyncing Rach Marie.

Not sure if we're voting him already, so...

unvote:vote:ThreetoMango

Give me one good reason why this shouldn't be the lynch today.

[Freja]

Seriously, we didn't even point out mango in that last post but they responded with "but we're Not faking!!!! See im so town wheeee! whinewhinewhinewhine."

Go throw a pity party for yourself in the dead thread plz.

[ThreetoMango]

Because I am clueless, who should I investigate tonight? A pool of players will work, I just don't want to get griped at.

{sns, Rach, FailHydra} should be the pool, though really it should be whichever of Rach/FailHydra we don't lynch.

1) Stop assuming that all these claimed roles MUST be town.

Nobody is, they're just all town 'cuz the players are playing town.

Obviously at least one is fake.

Except not since this is a good way to get every town PR mislynched one after another by thinking that the only way the setup makes sense is with lying when there are multiple alternative explanations. Among them being negative utility (which we have proven the existence of in Smeagol's claim) and scum power. (Especially if scum got more powerful from the ring.)

It's not the claims which make me think any of the players are town.

It's the play behind 'em.

2) Stop assuming that flavor=allignment.

Hmm. Let's see. The bartender example town PM was a minor force for good. Frodo was a force for good. Aragorn was a source for good. Smeagol (not Gollumn) was a source for good. Samwise Gamgee was a source for good. Lurtz was a source of evil. Elrond, Galadriel, and Treebeard are all sources of good. Boromir was ultimately one, too.

Evidence is pretty damn strong that flavor = alignment.

But do you seriously think a scum PR would claim VT?

Hello, 2014 join date!
"Uhh...I'm a hydra. Of course I have a 2014 joindate."
No, your main is a newb; I can tell because an experienced player wouldn't be making this argument. (Thus, 2014 joindate for the main.)

This is my way of saying, yes.

You have a thing or two or twenty to learn if you think you're going to win an argument against me which involves theory.
Theory is...kinda my thing on the site.

JUST BECAUSE A POWER IS CONFIRMED DOES NOT MAKE THAT PERSON AUTO-TOWN.

Yeah, but my reads on them are explicitly not from the role but from their play. Guyett's a townread outside of his claim, with the claim augmenting it. You're a townread outside your claim. Aronis is a townread outside his claim.

And five town PRs is not at all unreasonable in a mini given that all of them except the vig and flavor cop are fairly weak.

Give me one good reason why this shouldn't be the lynch today.

You're not playing to MS meta, for a start.

If you're willing to listen, I can dissect basically every single assumption you're making that's utterly wrong about site meta, but again, that's mainly mafia theory stuff. Needless to say, I'm right and if you think I'm wrong, you will lose the game as a result 'specially since we're the only thing that stands a chance at keeping town players alive during the night and can (aside from select circumstances) prove it via getting our target correct and ending up nightkilled as a result.

[RachMarie]

Flavor cop could mean there is a GF role because a regular cop would get an inno read a flavor cop would come back with not vanilla So if the GF claimed VT then you would know he or she is lying.

Adding more credence to the fact that not all the PRs are likely to be town.

[ThreetoMango]

Seriously, we didn't even point out mango in that last post but they responded with "but we're Not faking!!!! See im so town wheeee! whinewhinewhinewhine."

Actually, you did.

You said "there must be a faker in the PR claims!"

So I responded.

And while it's true my response involved, "We're not faking"...
...I also explained why I didn't think anyone else was faking, either.

(If you were scum, I'd call that kind of thing a misrep on your part. Not sure what a town equivalent term would be, though. Yet that's what you're doing. You were saying something quite specific. I was responding to that specific thing and saying why I thought it not true. Now you're taking a single aspect of that thing and applying it to a different context to make me look worse. Which is basically what misrepping is.)

[ThreetoMango]

there are still too many PRs around. if we mislynch today we are guaranteed to have multiple claimed PRs at lylo.

If theres a

fake claim

we dont have time to figure it out.

Thing is, each and every one of the claims looks town.
It's possible they're balanced by town negative utility (Frodo might be, Smeagol would be) and strong scum PRs.

But we're not faking.

(Word choice because Freja specifically used the word fakeclaim.)

Guyett's power is confirmed and I derped in not remembering Aronis's result confirms his alignment, too.

(And this is not faking.)

Your alignment's confirmed as well.

(And thus, could not be faked.)

Aronis looks town.

(And thus, I don't think he is faking.)

I mean, if there's a scum in the PR claims, it's going to be Aronis, but I don't think there is.

The post in question, with additional annotations and some emphasis to help illustrate.

Five PRs is explicitly

not

overpowering for the town.

You're new to MS.net.
And bluntly, I've got over 150 games of experience here.
You don't know my alignment, but you can trust me to know what I'm talking about.
I'm literally THE person writing the book on MD theory.
I know my numbers.
And even if you don't trust me to be speaking the truth. (I wouldn't lie about this even as scum, because as scum, I NEVER lie about theory; it goes against my fundamental beliefs.) You could talk to literally any veteran player on the site, and they'd tell you the same thing.

Six would be, yes.
But five isn't.

Two weaker miscellaneous roles.
A vig that can be powerful, weak, detrimental, or beneficial, circumstances depending.
A flavor cop that may have limitations to counterbalance its strengths.
A weak protective PR that dies when successful.

With a minimum of one negative-utility VT-turning-into-neutral-survivor.

All of this against a scumteam of unknown (but presumably fairly strong) strength.

Doesn't take a numbers genius to realize that's not imbalanced. Towns NEED roles to win games. There's a reason why most mountainous games are SOUNDINGLY scum wins; it's for that factor. Thus, 5 roles of moderate strength, countered by scum of decent strength with a little town drawback here and there...isn't bad setup design; it's

standard

setup design.

I'm a fucking reviewer for normal games. Yeah, this is a theme, but I still review balance for minis, which means that these numbers are part of my fucking job. So bluntly, I know what I'm talking about and you...don't.

That doesn't mean I'm right about all the claims being from town and you're wrong about there being one scum.
It's possible.
I just think it improbable, off of the circumstances behind each of those claims and the players behind them with their interactions.

[RachMarie]

Mango

seriously chill a tad, we still have not gotten all the claims. And it is clear ya all are gonna lynch another hobbit anyways.

Let me spend some time tomorrow with ISOs and give reads before we lynch eh. I want to make sure to have all the ducks in a row before you lynch me so ya all can get scum the following day.

[Freja]

actually that argument was from toast, who is plenty experienced. he says that your mastin head should know better than to assume what you are assuming.

don't pull "I'm experienced" bullshit arguments. Your thoughts are bad and you should feel bad. scum!

[Freja]

lol and you called the head with a 2010 join date "new" and "inexperienced". Ha. you need to work on reading people I guess.

[Freja]

@Rach: that is exactly what I was thinking, pretty much

oh, mango. You sound so much like Bulba did.

I don't have time for your incorrect opinions. There is no reason to think not a single PR claim is faked, as I explained in my post. Me pointing out that you sound unnecessarily whiny, and that you, as an experienced player, should know that many of these claims can be full of shit.

PArt of my game has always been to put in quotes what a player sounds like from my perspective. In this instance, you sound desperate to get away from the idea that the claimed PR's shouldn't be lynched today. When they should be.

Oh, and as far as the whole "MS meta" thing, do you you really think I care?

I've been playing on this website for four years

I think I can establish for myself what the "meta" is.

Again, your responses to me sound like Bulba. Was site meta why you thought Reinoe was a good quicklynch, and why Bulbazak was town. Town needs to get away from those inauthentic environments because scum

thrive

in it.

oh I could go

on

with you. Using experience as a way to discredit my points. Just like Bulba. That's a few more scum points for you.

This is ToastyToast you are talking to, by the way. People have been trying to get me to get into this "MS meta" bullcrap for a long time, but I resist and still manage to string up scum. Even your average-only-played-two-games-as-scum player can recognize the expected trends as scum and do their utmost to manipulate and/or defy those trends. If you are going to try to discredit me about experience and overall "site outlook," then I assure you that it is not the right fight to pick.

OMG this stuff you are writing is getting even better! Trying to use your power as a reason why you cant be lynched? "i'm the only person who can protect the town!" How fucking convenient of you.

I love watching scum dig themselves sooo deep into a hole filled with the scumtells I adhere to. Oh, but I guess those scumtells aren't "MS meta" so go ahead, my friends! Call this fight town on town, keep on valuing a claimed role over scummy behavior, and do whatever it else it is you guys like to do when you are losing a game.
Oh, and Mastin wants to play the "if you go after me, town loses game?" Okay, I'll bite. If you guys keep this shit up, we will lose. But regardless of the decision ultimately decided upon for a lynch today, if I

happen

to be right at the moment, then I will laugh and gloat and watch as all you allegedly "experienced" players cry. And

maybe

a few of you will even take the time to reflect about how maybe your script of how a mafia game usually goes down isn't actually all that accurate.

Do you expect me to bow down to your all-knowing greatness, motherfucker? Is that what you want? I am very aware of who you are. And YOU. DON'T. SCARE. ME.

[Freja]

pants head likes this very much.

we called it on Bulba guys. we aren't wrong here either.

[shos]

keep it civil! Ill br making a VC when I can, sorry.

[Guyett]

VOTE: 3-2-mango

[shos]

Votecount 3.1

ThreetoMango (4) - Aronis, Freja, guyett.
Protogonos (0).
Fail Hydra (0).
snscompt1 (0).
Freja (0).
RachMarie (1) - ThreetoMango.
Aronis (0).
Guyett (0).

No Lynch(0).

Not voting(4) - RachMarie, Protogonos, Fail Hydra, snscompt1.

With 8 alive it takes 5 votes for a lynch/nolynch.
Deadline is in (expired on 2014-06-26 14:03:58).

Nobody has been prodded yet.

Fun Fact #11:

Durin's Bane, the Balrog who fought with gandalf and stuff - had wings. So in the movies - well - he could just fly back up if he wanted.

[Freja]

My apologies for the cussing, Mango

[ThreetoMango]

I have a question for you Freja.

If we were scum, why would we claim to have bodyguarded bulba?

I'm going to be a pretty inactive head due to other games and IRL, but I'll try to make a post every once in awhile and when other things clear up hopefully get back to this.

- Dice

[snscompt1]

Hey guys, sorry, but just got ALL caught up. Feel free to ask me anything.

Top two scum reads are FailHydra and ThreetoMango.

[Guyett]

Why did you protect bulba?