Mini 1581--The Final Radiant Tales...(Fin)

[morph the cat]

How do you know it's wrong, morph?

I don't

know

it's wrong. You and I disagree on the read. I'm working through whether to value your guyett read over my sns read (and Cabd's as well).

I feel like Bulba, if town, should have a similar thought process about you, and yet he's asking me to vote IA with him.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'm working through whether to value your guyett read over my sns read (and Cabd's as well).

You should. I've never been wrong about him.

Tbf Snork is one of the few people who can read me very well very quickly (along with ETL, Grimgroove and Mastina... as well as a few others)

ETL can be quite good at reading me and prob would have caught me out

Add Red Wine Mafia, Antihero UPick, and a slew of others for evidence. Sthar8 is another one I generally always catch, but with Sthar it's often too late. Guyett is never too late.

[Guyett]

Listem listen I'm home now ao its xool. Will read yomorrow n stuff. Bulba is an opportinistic fuvk

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I feel like Bulba, if town, should have a similar thought process about you, and yet he's asking me to vote IA with him.

yes exactly... ? He's trying to butter you up because you disagree with me, and using AtE and trying to make me feel guilty about wanting to lynch him.

[Bulbazak]

What is your lying scum read?

Town, but annoyed at ETL.

And you think that town-ETL would so emphatically get her Guyett read wrong?

I don't think she got the read wrong. She had it right and then backed down when they got close to being lynched.

Bulba which is mine vote?

The lazy one.

Bulba is an opportinistic fuvk

I proved that wrong. So good luck.

I feel like Bulba, if town, should have a similar thought process about you, and yet he's asking me to vote IA with him.

yes exactly... ? He's trying to butter you up because you disagree with me, and using AtE and trying to make me feel guilty about wanting to lynch him.

Where am I using AtE on you? I've tried explaining my thought process to you and you haven't been listening. I'm content enough to say you're wrong and that I'm annoyed with you and leave it at that. Heck, I used more AtE in Chain of Command than here.

[Guyett]

You provd fuck all

[EspeciallyTheLies]

No you were a stubborn butthead screaming about how you were right and OMGUSing people all over the place.

You're not doing that here. You're trying to be manipulative and it's not working.

My read on Guyett will evolve into the correct read given enough time depending on the game. Is it possible I'm wrong and shos is clouding the read? Yes. I've thought of that. But I've been paying attention. I feel really good about my read on him. The wagon and resistance to his counterwagon all just add to my read. They are not the foundation.

TownBulb should be biting my head off and trying to force your preferred lynch. Instead you're being all reasonable and slyly trying to make me question what I want to do.

We aren't even voting for you. But I think we will as I feel far more strongly about my read on you than my read on ZZZX/Maru/??

p-edit: guyett stop being toxic. go sober up and then come back later.

[Lying Scum]

Spoiler: ETL is a lame-o alt slipping loser

How do you know it's wrong, morph?

I'm working through whether to value your guyett read over my sns read (and Cabd's as well).

You should. I've never been wrong about him.

Tbf Snork is one of the few people who can read me very well very quickly (along with ETL, Grimgroove and Mastina... as well as a few others)

ETL can be quite good at reading me and prob would have caught me out

Add Red Wine Mafia, Antihero UPick, and a slew of others for evidence. Sthar8 is another one I generally always catch, but with Sthar it's often too late. Guyett is never too late.

I feel like Bulba, if town, should have a similar thought process about you, and yet he's asking me to vote IA with him.

yes exactly... ? He's trying to butter you up because you disagree with me, and using AtE and trying to make me feel guilty about wanting to lynch him.

No you were a stubborn butthead screaming about how you were right and OMGUSing people all over the place.

You're not doing that here. You're trying to be manipulative and it's not working.

My read on Guyett will evolve into the correct read given enough time depending on the game. Is it possible I'm wrong and shos is clouding the read? Yes. I've thought of that. But I've been paying attention. I feel really good about my read on him. The wagon and resistance to his counterwagon all just add to my read. They are not the foundation.

TownBulb should be biting my head off and trying to force your preferred lynch. Instead you're being all reasonable and slyly trying to make me question what I want to do.

We aren't even voting for you. But I think we will as I feel far more strongly about my read on you than my read on ZZZX/Maru/??

p-edit: guyett stop being toxic. go sober up and then come back later.

quoting alt slips

ETL

[Bulbazak]

You provd fuck all

Here are your accusations that I proved wrong:
1.) I was on all the leading wagons. Wrong! During the leading wagons early d1 (KA & ZZZX) I was voting Varsoon. I was the one who essentially started the wagons on Mirhawk and IA. If anything, you might have a point on Maruchan, but I was not on that one very long before switching back to IA, and 1 out of like 5 is a very bad reason to say that I was on every leading wagon.
2.) Every vote is a naked vote. Wrong! Most of my votes had some reasoning or stimulus attached to them.
3.) I did not explain my votes. Wrong! I explained why I was voting every single person. Maruchan was probably the weakest explanation, but even then, there was reasoning given and it wasn't that large of a leap to figure out why I was on the wagon.
4.) I never discussed my votes. Wrong! I discussed my Varsoon vote with Morph. I discussed my Mirhawk and IA votes excessively with ETL. Again, the only one not really discussed was Maruchan, and that was because the vote wasn't on there for very long.

So you raised 4 points against me to call me opportunistic scum, and 4 out of 4 points were wrong. Now are you going to continue spewing BS at me or are you going to sit down and take your lynch like a man?

P-edit: I am pushing my preferred lynch, that's why I'm trying to get Morph, who has a scumread on that slot, to vote IA with me. As for you, I tried talking with you. You shut me down, and you're being incredibly volatile right now. I even tried to tell you why your reason for trying to derail the IA lynch was bad, and you essentially shouted me down and insulted me. Your actions are incredibly toxic right now, so while I have a townread on you, I'd rather not deal with you atm.

[Guyett]

No I wint. Im home and I founf leann follain... my fave drink.
Sgos pls sort out the slips :/

[morph the cat]

I feel like Bulba, if town, should have a similar thought process about you, and yet he's asking me to vote IA with him.

yes exactly... ? He's trying to butter you up because you disagree with me, and using AtE and trying to make me feel guilty about wanting to lynch him.

Actually what bothered me more than anything was bulba defending me when you totally misread my trajectory on sns/IA. Part of it is the implied strong townread. Part of it is the timing - it would have been better for us to sort ourselves out if possible before someone leaping to mediate.

[Bulbazak]

And ETL says I'm not biting her head off...

[Guyett]

If I flip scim I'll eat a shit

[EspeciallyTheLies]

What are you talking about Bulb? I've been perfectly civil???

[Guyett]

Lybch us and wnen ee flip rown lynxh that scum fuvk bulb

[Bulbazak]

What are you talking about Bulb? I've been perfectly civil???

Bull crap! I tried to explain my thought process behind Mirhawk and you essentially tunneled and shouted at me. I tried to explain my thought process on IA and why you were wrong, and you insulted me. You essentially bit Maru's head off. For someone who said they wanted to take their time to read me, you've jumped down my throat at every opportunity, and I'm not seeing any of that paranoid waffling from you. You've been on the warpath, and nothing I've said is getting through to you. Heck, now that I think about it, my trying to talk to you is like when I try to talk with Mollie.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I tried to explain my thought process behind Mirhawk and you essentially tunneled and shouted at me.

Show me. I remember my first wall post on you regarding Mirhawk's question. I distinctly remember taking my time to make sure the post itself wasn't rude.

I tried to explain my thought process on IA and why you were wrong, and you insulted me.

No I didn't. Show me.

You essentially bit Maru's head off.

Are you maru?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I really dislike how you've continually used specific vocabulary to paint my position in this game as "volatile" and it really comes across as an effort to discredit me. For someone who is townreading us, this really just makes no sense.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

And if I wasn't sure about your alignment, then maybe I'd be paranoid and waffling. I'm not unsure about your alignment.

[Bulbazak]

I tried to explain my thought process behind Mirhawk and you essentially tunneled and shouted at me.

Show me. I remember my first wall post on you regarding Mirhawk's question. I distinctly remember taking my time to make sure the post itself wasn't rude.

Because I've played with Bert multiple times, and this is his town game.

So he isn't cheerful when he's scum?

Seems to me that's a pretty big tell, one would think he would do something about it.

That's not what I said at all. My point was that scum have a hard time faking being carefree in the manner that Bert has shown, and having had some experience playing with Bert, it's easier for me to see that this is genuine and his town game.

Unvote

Vote Mirhawk

I'm not getting the sense that you are trying to figure out the game so much as you are trying to put words into other's mouths and lynch that way.

Wait a second. Mirhawk is asking the same questions I am. And not only that, but he followed up on your answer when it didn't answer his question. I don't see how that deserves a vote. Not to mention that he makes a really good point. You say that "scum" have a hard time faking it. Mirhawk asks, "But does

Bert

have a hard time faking it?" and you respond with a vote instead of clarifying your answer.

This is really, really bad.

Mirhawk is not interested in any answers. If he was, he wouldn't be twisting my words when asking the questions. He's trying to argue semantics rather than motivation, and that's incredibly scummy.

Eh... no. He isn't twisting your words, and you're still not answering the question, which I am also interested in. He's asking you a clarifying question, continually, and you accuse him of twisting your words.

You: Bert is town because he's being silly and scum have a hard time faking that.

Mirhawk: Oh ok. Would

SCUM BERT

(<<< note the distinction, the clarifying point here) have a hard time faking that?

You: VOTE: MIRHAWK Y U TWISTING MY WORDS.

This is what it looks like to me. Do you understand the question now and can you answer it?

Here I try to explain my thought process to you, and you just jump to "Bulba is dodging the question.". There were other ways to ask this, and you chose one of the most adversarial, which is reminiscent of Thor. This is not you asking. This is you arguing.

My read on you has changed because I think your defense of KA is unwarranted, your Bert read is, essentially, baseless, and I don't like your reaction to Mirhawk's questioning of you.

You also neglected to answer several of my questions:

1) Why did you assume so quickly that Bert was town?
2) Why did you defend KA (instead of attacking those voting him)?
3) Do you think that BERT would have trouble faking his "cheeriness" as scum (and not just scum in general having trouble faking it)?

ETL

Here you accuse me of ignoring questions. And as I point out in a later post, I actually addressed all of those questions multiple times, making your accusation unfounded. Something else that never really clicked with me was your sudden reversal on the Mirhawk discussion. Sure, I get that you reread, but it still bugs me how you went from "I like Bulba's stance on his discussion with Mirhawk. Townread. Mirhawk scumread." to "Bulba's stance on his discussion with Mirhawk is scummy. Scumread. Oh, and Mirhawk is now a townread.". That's a pretty striking 180, even with the reread.

And then we have my response to you:

Spoiler: Response

I'm concerned that your read on him is based only on meta, according to you, but you only rate your familiarity with him as a 5. This is incongruent with your exhibited level of confidence in the read as well as your defense of him several times.

It's good enough for this stage in the game.

Actually, that was more me being suspicious at Game for trying to throw suspicion on Bert as a possible scum double voter more than me thinking Bert was town.

Sure, but it indicates that you do consider Bert town at this point, plus, at the end of this same post, you proclaim that he IS town. So, why did you assume so quickly that Bert is town?

I liked his reaction and thought it looked like town Bert.

Fair enough. I don't have enough meta with Varsoon to say otherwise.

In our last game together, Mafia Among the Chosen, I nailed Varsoon as scum on the first couple of pages. He was also paranoid enough about me that he blocked me from being chosen in pregame. I'm pretty confident that I could figure out Varsoon's alignment if he started posting.

I don't understand how that is alignment-indicative, nor how it is strong enough to have this kind of confidence. It's been cleared up that Nat messed up the VCs. You think voting the mod is town? Or was it something after that and you're just using it as a time marker? If so, what?

I liked the way Bert went about it, and I thought it looked like town Bert.

Because Game's attack is really bad and is essentially going after low hanging fruit.

That doesn't answer why you defended KA instead of attacking gameplay.

Because I essentially cut off Game's line of attack. That's good enough for now until I can figure out what Game's posting means.

Yeah... but you didn't. You just defended KA. Those are two different actions and two different choices one can make. You didn't choose to attack people who were "going after low hanging fruit"; you chose to defend KA.

And your point is?

Eh... no. He isn't twisting your words, and you're still not answering the question, which I am also interested in. He's asking you a clarifying question, continually, and you accuse him of twisting your words.

You: Bert is town because he's being silly and scum have a hard time faking that.

Mirhawk: Oh ok. Would

SCUM BERT

(<<< note the distinction, the clarifying point here) have a hard time faking that?

You: VOTE: MIRHAWK Y U TWISTING MY WORDS.

This is what it looks like to me. Do you understand the question now and can you answer it?

I said that Bert's play was carefree and playful, which is hard for scum to fake. I was saying that Bert's posting looked genuine and not fake. Mirhawk comes back with "So you don't think Bert can be cheerful as scum?", which is not what I said at all. My read had to do with the genuiness of Bert's posts, not with his emotional state when playing the game. This looked like a purposeful twisting of words to me, and given that Mirhawk had already shown a propensity for keeping options open ("Well, it may be town" he'd say about someone's townread, "but it could also very well be scum.".), and that he was being very opaque with his play, I felt that pointed more towards a scum agenda than a town one.

You also neglected to answer several of my questions:

1) Why did you assume so quickly that Bert was town?
2) Why did you defend KA (instead of attacking those voting him)?
3) Do you think that BERT would have trouble faking his "cheeriness" as scum (and not just scum in general having trouble faking it)?

ETL

I haven't, but here they are again:

1.) Because his play and reactions reminded me of town Bert, particularly his claim and the way he handled it.
2.) Because the attacks being baseless does not necessarily say anything about the attackers. I thought it was best to diffuse the attacks, rather than just attack someone for a wrong belief. I'm always going to address bad attacks.
3.) I'd imagine there'd be slight differences. This looks like town Bert to me, so I'm sticking with that.

That's really all I can think of to say that's game related right now. And, sorry I've been absent for so long, its just that if I actually had posted anything it probably would have been more dissing myself, because that's really all I wanted to do. (Also speaking of Nati's ruleset, my dead what?)

I'm not sure what to make of this. KA, why are you not wanting to participate in the game?

P-edit: All flavor claims should come with a game reference. I have information that can help root out fake claims.

A response that you ignored. And now you come back at me that I dodged talking about the Mirhawk situation. Bull crap!

I tried to explain my thought process on IA and why you were wrong, and you insulted me.

No I didn't. Show me.

I read the thread. I commented on everything I felt needed a response. I have been paying very close attention, Bulb. Trying to wash it all away by claiming that I haven't is bullshit. IA has not been rolefishing. I don't personally give a shit why he asked for flavor claims, though I'd be willing to bet his VT claim is nonsense cuz of this

-Incredibly bastard! Power madness!

I don't know why you are acting like everyone has to live up to your ideals of play. Jake from State Farm does that and it annoys the fuck out of me because he's wrong 90% of them time when he does it. This is pretty standard shos/Guyett fucking around and

it is not alignment indicative

. Not to mention... WHAT ROLEFISHING?

And then, your argument against my complaints on the lack of a counterwagon is "hurrdurr town are the majority". Are you serious? Please tell me you aren't serious. This applies to pretty much every mafia game ever and is irrelevant because of this. I find it hard to believe that you are unable to see what I'm saying. The IA wagon never stalled. The claim that it did is preposterous. It took off at the speed of light in terms of number of posts from your vote to L-1.

And "given the evidence in the thread", town is very much NOT in sync or there wouldn't have been scattered votes all over everywhere all fucking day long.

Please stop fucking lying to me. I'm not stupid and I don't appreciate being treated as such.

You're scum and you're trying to whitewash my arguments because you know I know you're scum.

ETL

This is pretty freaking insulting ETL. You grossly mischaracterized my argument, and I even told you so:

And then, your argument against my complaints on the lack of a counterwagon is "hurrdurr town are the majority". Are you serious? Please tell me you aren't serious. This applies to pretty much every mafia game ever and is irrelevant because of this. I find it hard to believe that you are unable to see what I'm saying. The IA wagon never stalled. The claim that it did is preposterous. It took off at the speed of light in terms of number of posts from your vote to L-1.

Quit strawmanning me. My point was that the tell is unreliable for a variety of reasons, town being the majority being one of them. And the IA wagon did take awhile to start. There was a lot of suspicion on that slot for awhile before the wagon started, and no one wanted to vote for them.

And "given the evidence in the thread", town is very much NOT in sync or there wouldn't have been scattered votes all over everywhere all fucking day long.

Saying that town were not in sync at one point in the day is not proof that town cannot be in sync later in the day in regards to scum.

Please stop fucking lying to me. I'm not stupid and I don't appreciate being treated as such.

I'm not lying to you, and I'm concerned that you're not seeing where I'm coming from, especially since you've seen me have these opinions before, and especially since you ignored a scumread on IA, who was your strongest scumread, based on scummy actions because "The wagon built too fast.".

And if I wasn't sure about your alignment, then maybe I'd be paranoid and waffling. I'm not unsure about your alignment.

Perhaps your conf. bias is the problem then, because you are way off on my alignment.

[Bert]

VOTE: Interdimensional Arsehole

Guys, just end this day (and the accompanying shouting matches).

[Bert]

There's really no reason to not be voting right now.

[morph the cat]

bert, you're making me nervous. :/

[Bert]

no you are making me nervous with your not voting any of your scumreads

[Bert]

and you all but called bulba but leaned scum, didnt vote him

called IA your best option based on the read on sns's replaceout, still didnt vote them.

???

didnt discuss ETL and made comments about Beli whom I don't know, and then that was that.