NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[DrippingGoofball]

@DrippingGoofball -

How do you reconcile statements like:

DrippingGoofball (7) -- Untrod Tripod, Kublai Khan, Sotty7, Save the Dragons, Porochaz, CrashTextdummie, Albert B. Rampage

All but one scum is on that shit wagon.

with the logic that goes behind the scumputer?

Admittedly at the time I felt the sting of persecution, and that was prior to the scumputer.

[DrippingGoofball]

@DrippingGoofball - How come you didn't boot up the scumputer after undo & petroleumjelly claimed?

Time constraints, plus still scant on flips.

Also are you scum? You seem very defensive with the scumputer.

[DrippingGoofball]

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

Joke or truth???

[DrippingGoofball]

This is the EXACT same thing as what you did yesterday with your "mathcam I found a cop with a guilty on you!"

Mathcam is even more scum today than he was when ABR had a guilty on him.

[Bookitty]

@Mathcam:

Are you working on analysis and scumhunting? Do you have any reads at this point that you could share?

[Yosarian2]

FOS: Yosarian

Are you fosing me for saying I suspect mathcam for not scumhunting enough? I've been saying that for quite a while now.

[Save The Dragons]

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

Joke or truth???

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

[Yosarian2]

How the heck does this even work when you're town? I assume you MUST do this when town because otherwise I don't know why you're still alive. I'm assuming that you don't have a heap of votes on you because everyone's like "oh, that's just how she plays."

The scumputer is basically witchcraft, imo, but it's something I've seen DGB doing constantly for several years now. She plugs all kinds of stuff and numbers in, does some weird stuff that nobody else understands, waves her hands and dances in a circle while chanting, and then declares a bunch of people scum with extreme confidence.

It's not something I've ever taken very seriously, but if nothing else, watching everyone else's reactions to it can be very useful. It's certanly not a scumtell on DGB's part, she does this while town all the time.

I'm frankly kind of amazed that BooKitty apparently understood DGB's logic well enough to correct her math; I don't think I've ever seen someone try to do that before.

[DrippingGoofball]

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

Joke or truth???

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

Hey Yosarian, is the above a scum post or what? It makes my scumdar pulsate and glow.

[mathcam]

I have a feeling I'm going to regret indulging you, Yos, but your comments have really started to gnaw away at me, and now it seems like you've got BooKitty picking up the torch. To be honest, I feel like I've done more scumhunting today than you have. For example, to the best of my knowledge, no one has made this argument against CES before:

I'm also interested in the start of his day 2 behavior, where he seems confused that I wouldn't be more anti-BooKitty...almost get a "Darn, was expecting some more fireworks here" feeling from him, as if he and the rest of the scum had planned over night that BooKitty vs. mathcam was going to be the big fight of the day.

I looked through your posts today, Yos, and haven't found any new arguments that you've made. Why doesn't that count? Is it not vitriolic enough? Or maybe that's not what you mean by scumhunting? Do you count posting suspicion lists as scumhunting? I could do that in every post from here until the end of the day if you'd like, but I didn't get the feeling that when I did that yesterday you were counting that as me scumhunting either. I think I also made novel points against ABR yesterday. I also think that my more typical process of furthering or disagreeing with other people's arguments is a pro-town thing to do, even if it falls shy of what you call scumhunting. And I think there's a few more like that. I'll grant that I didn't make a strong entrance into the game, but I think maybe you underestimate how difficult replacing in to this game was, and I think you formed an opinion of my play and have not updated it since. You may have even romanticized a little about what you could expect from me as a townie -- flattering, but apparently completely undeserved. In any case, I think all-told I'm nowhere near the bottom of the list in terms of pro-town content generated in this game, but I suppose I can imagine definitions of scumhunting according to which I have played sub-optimally. Could you explain your definition to me?

@Mathcam: Are you working on analysis and scumhunting? Do you have any reads at this point that you could share?

I

did

share a read already, and explained in that exact post that I was working on doing a full ISO of everyone. Can you really not wait until I'm ready to present the material myself? I'm on a different computer from my notes, but the only other thing I can remember at the moment is that I have no idea where all of the pro-porochaz love is coming from. He's not nearly as town in my book as some others have indicated. I also agree that StD is pretty strongly pro-town, and Yos as well. I still have some concerns about ABR, but with his renewed interest in contributing to the game, he's looking much more townly to me. DGB is DGB -- I have no reads at all, but she's made a series of anti-town plays and would certainly not be upset by her lynch. Aside from our masons, I think everyone else is still pending.

[SpyreX]

The post above me waxes so political I don't even.

DGB is DGB -- I have no reads at all, but she's made a series of anti-town plays and would certainly not be upset by her lynch. Aside from our masons, I think everyone else is still pending.

This is a lot of words pretending to have no real opinion. Yet its clearly there.

What did DGB do that was "anti-town"?

---

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

I'd love to see sotty's reasoning for my vote being soo bad.

Because I want this dead.

Joke or truth???

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

[Porochaz]

Apologies, work has been crazy the last few days, 12 hour shifts and Im going to be away at the weekend. I'll try and pop a proper post tonight, (and on the trains there and back if I have internet).

[SpyreX]

@Mod: I'm not sure what happened with the quoting in 1935

[mathcam]

This is a lot of words pretending to have no real opinion. Yet its clearly there.

What did DGB do that was "anti-town"?

I'm hardly pretending to have no opinions -- see number of times voted for DGB. That line meant that I have nothing I can get simply from "reads" of her. For example, I typically find cantankerous a slight scum tell, but I think DGB is like that regardless of her alignment. So I let her actions speak for themselves, and there's enough anti-town there to put her on my happy-to-lynch list. There's her defense of LML, her expressed preference for no-lynch on Day 1, there's her outing of a perceived cop on day 2, her repeated pattern of voting for the person who's annoying her the most, etc. And that's just what I could come up without actually trying to think about it too hard.

[Bookitty]

I feel like I'm getting attacked a lot for my playstyle for a game in which every other player's idiosyncrasies are swept under the run for "being their meta." I try very hard to figure out everyone's alignment -- good or bad, I'm just not as successful as most others in believing I have done so. I don't typically push that hard for my lynches, but I listen when other people make their cases, and evaluate whether or not I think that case has merit.

I've made points again UT and glork in just my last couple of posts, and I've pushed ABR today as hard as I remember pushing anyone, and it's gotten absolutely zero traction. Part of this is because he refuses to even acknowledge a case is being made against him, and part of the reason for that is because no one expects him to. He has literally the most brilliant meta I've ever seen anyone concoct. So when you accuse me of not pushing that wagon hard, or that I don't case who gets lynched because I've gone so many posts without pushing my wagon (which is in itself unfair -- I try to contribute to other discussions as well), this is largely because there's nothing more I can push without someone backing me up to put pressure on ABR, or a response from ABR himself. One man does not a wagon make.

Can anyone else confirm that this is mathcam's town meta?

I did an ISO of mathcam and found these:

Rereading LML, I can't say that I've found anything unusually scummy from him. I will say that his posting style has always left me feeling a little uncomfortable, but I'm pretty sure that this has happened as both town and scum. I will note that out of my entire read, there was no instances in which I marked him down with a particularly pro-town vote. He'd probably be in my top-5-scummiest.

Well, kudos to those of you who called it on LML -- I really didn't see it.

As to the "didn't really see it" line, I meant exactly that -- other people seemed to find him extraordinarily scummy, and it appears they were right. I saw nothing definitively scummy from him, but instead a rather neutral level of scumminess that still rose to the top (the top 5) by virtue of a lot of other people appearing townish.

What's missing for me on most of your posted reads is a reason why. You even said it yourself:

Here's a rough organization of my reads. I'm not sure I can justify every single one of them.

When PJ called you out on your system of little +1s and -1s, you essentially said that you had meant that reference rhetorically. Yet you still posted a series of little +1s and -1s that don't seem to correspond in any meaningful way with your stated reads. Either it's rhetorical, in which case I'd expect you to say so, or it's actual, in which case I would like to know how those help you in determining and remembering who is scum and who is town?

To paraphrase in MY words what you have said, {I think LML is probably scum, but you know, my reads are constantly evolving, but I'm going to put my vote down here, but I think he's in the top five scummiest, there's nothing pro-town, but I don't have anything really scummy to share}. At that point, your vote lands on the biggest wagon that isn't LML and you THEN say you didn't see the case on LML after the fact? What happened to top-five scummiest there?

That said, I'll take another look at LML (and maybe PJ, though maybe not as I like watching ABR get worked up). In the meantime, people should feel free to

lynch BooKitty without me

.

This, though, pings my scumdar the hardest now that I know LML's alignment (and I am pretty sure of PJ's and ABR's). It looks as though you're trying to avoid responsibility for my lynch (see the bolded) while setting up your suspicions of PJ and ABR for the next day.

So yes, I'm interested in your reads WITH REASONS. I didn't personally find doing ISOs helpful because context matters a lot in this game, but even that is preferable to reads without reasons that are essentially equivalent to gut.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote mathcam

[Albert B. Rampage]

@Yos: I meant to FOS Mathcam, not you.

[undo]

That scumputer thing is too complex for me. Don't you have a user friendly version DGB? Something with a nice GUI where you just click a button and you get a pretty formatted result saying who is scum.

[mathcam]

So yes, I'm interested in your reads WITH REASONS. I didn't personally find doing ISOs helpful because context matters a lot in this game, but even that is preferable to reads without reasons that are essentially equivalent to gut.

I provide reasons when I have them, and don't when I don't. I think it's

better

to be honest about it, then to drum up an easy argument I don't actually believe is indicative of scum. For some reason that kind of nonsense gets a lot of credit in this thread for "contributing." And I think it's disingenuous for you to pick out posts where I've said I don't have reasons, and then imply that it's indicative of a trend, especially when you claim to have ISO'd my posts. What about my arguments against ABR? CES? UT? Glork? DGB? Do you

really

believe that your distinguishing town-mathcam from scum-mathcam rather than directly assaulting my playstyle?

[Green Crayons]

(3)

I find it especially odd that no one at all has called out CTD for being active all over the site, but largely ignoring this game.

You've got us. It's a 21 scum/1 town game--congrats on your victory.

Scum humor.

GC, that was a truly awful case.

I know right

It reads like:

(3) something neutral

-----

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

Joke or truth???

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

Hey Yosarian, is the above a scum post or what? It makes my scumdar pulsate and glow.

I dunno, it reads like:

something neutral

[Yosarian2]

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

Joke or truth???

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

Hey Yosarian, is the above a scum post or what? It makes my scumdar pulsate and glow.

Eh. Maybe I'm biased, but honestly STD could claim scum right now and I still wouldn't believe him.

[Bookitty]

Wall of text and quotes incoming. Feel free to shield your eyes.

I meant identifying a cop as in a note-to-self to give their opinions extra weight -- how she got this read on ABR I haven't the foggiest (but yet again is an example of how letting ABR get away with his meta benefits him to the occasional expense of others). On the other hand, outing the cop is publicly posting this suspicion. I find both of the steps of DGB's process in this instance to be pretty indefensible.

I really can't decide between ABR and DGB -- I find aspects of both of their play mysterious, and yet both present this nagging doubt that they wouldn't have played this way had they been scum. Too bad we can't lynch both.

In response to this:

I don't think I've seen DGB simply acquiesce to being lynched as either alignment. The impression I got from her "I give up" post is that it worked for Bookie, so it might just work for her.

You say this:

Hm. That does not seem an unreasonable argument.

I feel like I actually have very few presented facts. DGB has skyrocketed in scumminess today, and ABR I had as leaning scum coming in to the day. They both have done demonstrably anti-town things today, whereas my other suspicions just have occasional things that set off my scumometer. I guess I wouldn't say that I'm not open to other lynches, but I am feeling good about lynching DGB/ABR at the moment.

I agree. There's something very off-feeling about the way ABR jumped from me to DGB. He attributes this to rage at being turned against, but I think it's bald opportunism.

To be fair, there are reasons it's so easy. If we were bandwagoning DGB yesterday because of her unique playstyle, I would've agreed it was a suspiciously easy bandwagon. At the moment, however, her play is riddled with anti-town behavior.

These last two statements are just gut. I want to know if that's how you play: just using gut feelings?

At the start of Day Two you had this:

In any case, I've updated my list significantly given new information. Here's a rough organization of my reads. I'm not sure I can justify every single one of them.

Probably pro-town: Chamber, Sotty, StD, inhim, PJ, Yos
Slight pro-town read: MBL, KK, GC, VitR, Glork
Not sure: CTD, DGB
Slight scum: UT, undo, CES, BooKitty
Leaning scum: ABR, porochaz

Later on, before the undo-PJ mason claim, you said this:

I don't get all the undo hate at all. When I display posts by user: undo, I see a lot of contributions. And I lol'd at

I’m not going to apologize for my playstyle. If you find me difficult to read, try harder.

In general, I hate this "surface reading" argument as a scumtell. I don't think undo's doing it, and when people do, I attribute it more to laziness than scumminess.

What changed your mind on undo in the intervening time?

Can you point me to some posts in which you pushed your case on Glork, since you bring it up? How about UT?

To me, it looks like all of your arguments (except the one on ABR, whom I now feel is town – by the way, feel free to ask me for my REASONS) are easily retractable if your target flips town. Putting down clear reasons is part of sharing your thought process with the town. You lament that you don't get traction on your cases. I think it's because you haven't really made any compelling cases at all.

I would welcome a response that includes the posts that most effectively demonstrate your pushing of the cases you believe in other than ABR.

I still would like information on any meta that confirms mathcam's statement that this is how he generally plays.

[mathcam]

I still would like information on any meta that confirms mathcam's statement that this is how he generally plays.

You mean since you asked four hours ago? I notice that you didn't ask if this is how I generally play as scum -- this seems like pretty strong evidence to me that you really are just attacking my playstyle, and not evaluating whether or not it's indicative of scum.

What changed your mind on undo in the intervening time?

Nothing did -- I just didn't get the argument against him, which was attacking him for not contributing, when I saw no such lack of contributions. Apparently people measure contributions in different ways.

Can you point me to some posts in which you pushed your case on Glork, since you bring it up? How about UT?

Sure. In about 5 seconds of self-ISOing I found these.

Glork's recent trend of metaing himself: I think it's especially tempting as scum to make emphatic statements of the form "If I were scum, I'd have acted like ... " (and yes, I'm aware there's a mild form of such a sentence just a paragraph above), and Glork's 71, 72, 74 are souped up versions of this. In fact, 74 even gives me the vibe that was exactly what he was doing, intentionally setting himself up to be scummy and use that defense, and was angry that people weren't buying it.

I think UT has quickly elevated into second, for being over-defensive when I suggested he might eagerly hop onto any ol' bandwaggon, but then eagerly hopping onto PJ (imo, a pretty silly bandwagon)

Look, if you don't buy these as arguments, or as me scumhunting, there's nothing more we can talk about here -- I am literally unable to provide what you are asking for, and you can direct your vote accordingly. I typically don't make long empassioned pleas that suchandsuch is scum because I've connected all of these dots together and have an overwhelming pile of proof. I think most such piles are filled with garbage, especially when it comes to scum who know what they're doing, which I think we probably have a preponderance of in this game -- instead, you find scum by finding one little small thing that a player does that you can't convince yourself they would have done if they were town. If you have two or three of these, then that's fantastic, and that makes a case. If you only have one, you point it out in thread and see if it other people can add to it. So I find adding one little line to an existing argument to be a crucial part of the game, and one which I'm better at than constructing new arguments against players from scratch. If you (or Yos, or GC) don't value this as a contribution, I'm not sure what to tell you -- you are free to disparage my contributions, and I'll try to supress my urge to feel insulted and continue to play to the best of my meager abilities, understanding that we just have different definitions of scumhunting.

[Bookitty]

When Mathcam did post his reads, which was in a different post, I felt that he gave very weak reads on most people. He's justified that with the 40 percent comment, if you recall. The two issues are separate. The first may be playstyle. I've never played with mathcam that I recall and I don't know if this is how he always plays.

I posted this on June 19, I believe. It's not an outright question, admittedly, but I believed that if this was your normal playstyle others would have commented on it. That hasn't happened. Now I'm asking outright. That's not attacking you for your playstyle, that's asking if, in fact, it IS your playstyle.

If this is your normal playstyle, i.e., presenting weak cases and waiting to see if others will agree and jump on with you, then I find it indistinguishable from scum.

Scum do exactly that. For instance, take Scum A from my previous diagram. He looks at ABR, who has a distinctive playstyle and can look like an easy target. Scum A says, "I find ABR scummy because (reason)." Then he waits.

If Town A and B bite, then maybe Scum B will jump on too and now we have a wagon! Wheee!

If no one takes him up on it, though, Scum A might repeat his point or he might let it lie and move on to another target.

Your behaviour looks like that behaviour. I am asking for playstyle meta from people who have played with you because I'm a sucker for appeals to emotion and I wanted any evidence that could clear you out there. But that's where I sit right now.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Alright, Bookitty, are you voting for mathcam?