NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Bookitty]

I already am.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Let's get this lynch over with, too bad if we're wrong. Vig save us.

[mathcam]

That's not attacking you for your playstyle, that's asking if, in fact, it IS your playstyle.

How would I know? What difference does it make? Maybe I've had a change in life philosophy since the last time I played a serious game. I'm telling you what I am doing in excruciating detail. You can address the merits of the discussion without recourse to past games.

If this is your normal playstyle, i.e., presenting weak cases and waiting to see if others will agree and jump on with you, then I find it indistinguishable from scum.

I'm not waiting for people to agree and jump on -- I'm contributing to discussion. It's an opportunity for people to take my ideas and either further or refute them.

But fine, I'll bite -- your "Player A" example is one of a million different scenarios in which a player can post "I find ABR scummy because (reason)". That a player posts that quote is not indicative in the slightest of them being scum. What, in your book, is a townie to do who finds a reason that ABR is scummy, but finds only that one reason? Do they omit that observation from the dialogue? Do they hold onto it and risk being called out for not contributing? Or do they hunt down additional "evidence" and call it scumhunting?

In any case, I think this discussion has turned in the anti-down direction in the sense of distracting us from any other discussion. I accept your votes on me, and will try to restrain from further discussion on this unless you think it's particularly beneficial to the town for me to engage in it. On that note...

Let's get this lynch over with, too bad if we're wrong. Vig save us.

Yes, heaven forbid we have a discussion about a variety of topics (e.g., one of CES or VitR, probably quite happily laughing away at us) before calling it a day. I recognize I'm looking like an inevitable lynch today (though this is partly because my detractors are among the most vocal of players), but let's keep in mind that before DGB, BooKitty, and I barfed all over the thread, there were some promising conversations that you all should follow up on after I go.

[DrippingGoofball]

So mathcam, who is scum?

I'm going to give you a huge hint that I'm not one of them. Start with that. Who is scum?

[Patrick]

Votecount

DrippingGoofball (1) -- Save the Dragons
SpyreX (2) -- Sotty7, petroleumjelly
Sotty7 (1) -- chamber
VitaminR (1) -- undo
Cogito Ergo Sum (2) -- Yosarian2, mathcam
mathcam (5) -- Cogito Ergo Sum, Bookitty, Green Crayons, DrippingGoofball, Albert B. Rampage
Save the Dragons (1) -- SpyreX

Not voting: VitaminR, MrBuddyLee, Porochaz, Kublai Khan
17 alive, 9 to lynch.

[Save The Dragons]

Yosarian: What do you think of mathcam's opinion of CES? 1894

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yosarian: What do you think of mathcam's opinion of CES? 1894

Question not addressed to me, but I want to mention that it feels like scum on scum to me.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Could Save the Dragons be scum?

Yes.

@CES:

how do you feel about Vitamin vouching for you?

I think it would be weird if he didn't. I think he'd have noticed those things and defended me that way as either alignment.

12) Cogito Ergo Sum -- Not much on day one, though Yos makes some reasonable points here and there. He's pretty adamantly anti-BooKitty, to the point that he's defending LML at her expense. Posts 670 and 679 feel weird to the point of scumminess. Supsicious quote: "The LML wagon is play-style based but has some merit." I'm also interested in the start of his day 2 behavior, where he seems confused that I wouldn't be more anti-BooKitty...almost get a "Darn, was expecting some more fireworks here" feeling from him, as if he and the rest of the scum had planned over night that BooKitty vs. mathcam was going to be the big fight of the day. His buddying with chamber is really weird to me, defending him a couple of times and deferring his vote to chamber's on multiple occasions. I will be interested in thinking about chamber, porochaz, and BooKitty regardless of how CES flips.

Explain to me how #670, #679 or that quote are even remotely suspicious. As for Bookitty-mathcam, if you're calling me "confused", that just strengthens the point that I made then - if someone (bookitty here) attacks you based on garbage and your response is to FoS pj and not even think twice about what kind of motive bookitty could have for attacking you, that's weird and that's scummy. I sheeped chamber because I trust him and know he does in-depth stuff that I don't currently have the time for.

Can we get mathcam lynched now?

[Porochaz]

Ok so it appears that I didn't get this done, which sucks, so let me go through a summary of where Im at, and hopefully the internet on the train is working tomorrow.

So, my thoughts are mainly centred around DGB and her Glork interactions. The points against her are still there, the cop thing, the UT case, the KK switch late day 1. Im not going to deny that Glork being town weakens my case on her slightly, but I think there are still issues there. I'm interested (but also very likely going to be quickly bored) by the scumputer posts, its never really something I understood, but I seem to remember it being flawed. Whats more completely subjective, whilst throwing thousands of numbers out to hide that fact. Especially since this marks a huge change in posting style from DGB. Anyway, Im going into her posts today with scepticism.

ABR is the other person mainly in my thoughts. He has come off really badly the last couple of days, and I think my initial read on him was wrong. There are a few things off hand I noticed, when I questioned my read before, 1498, I noticed that he mentions me (the only time in the game thus far) in 1556 trying to gauge others opinions on me. Which felt really weird, but whilst I don't have the time right now, I saw him do it again with someone else. However there is more than that here. I need to get off the pot here and actually try and work out why I feel really badly about him, and why he seems to have wormed his way into some sort of townie position when he hasn't done anything, as far as I can see, to warrant it.

VitaminR/CES, are third, VitaminR because I get the feeling every single time someone makes a case on CES it is VitaminR who responds, to the extent that I don't think CES has ever really gone on the defensive at all or even answered to any suspicions of himself. Which as I have played with CES a relatively large amount myself, isn't overly unusual but I am still waiting for that "CES" moment, where you make some insight or something, that is worth something. It's frustrating that you haven't done things yet (things being undefined) and I do get the feeling you are deliberately taking a back seat.

That is where I am with my main thoughts. More reading needs to be done.

[VitaminR]

Poro, CES is my little brother. I might be a little protective of him, especially if I have strong reasons to think he's town.

[VitaminR]

Also:

Vote: Sotty7

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, Vote Sotty

[MrBuddyLee]

on a wedding road trip til Mon morn, have some time to read when I'm not driving.

question to all about mathcam. all but three players have voted cam. me, Yos and vitR. either he is being bused, likely heavily, or he's town getting ganged up on. as a frame of reference, only about 8 people have voted Dgb. Do you find it likely that a Scum player has attracted so many votes so easily?

pj, I think you and I read lml's interactions with mafiassk and saw opposite things. do you think my take is off-base? Lml definitely had an allergic reaction to being caught fosing ssk. It felt to me like if ssk were scum, lml might have puffed up his chest and claimed to have caught Scum upon being called out. I went on about it a bit end of day yesterday.. please let me know what you think.

why is sotty getting votes?

[Porochaz]

Had a guy talk my ear off on the train for 3 hours about how noone wants to hire him (I can guarantee it's attitude) The only time I did have was to look at ABR briefly. Im not sure how I feel still, he pushes heavily without much in the way of content, and reflecting Im not sure how scummy that it. However his interaction with DGB are cause for concern day 2. Because I don't really understand what was going on, but it feels weird. (the cop "claim" etc.) Their back and forth whether each of them is scummy or not...

[MrBuddyLee]

Albert, why are you following up vitR's sotty votE with your own sotty votE? I thought vitR was one of your top suspects..

[MrBuddyLee]

Albert is a fucking mess. Probably my top pick for scum right now. Dude, you just cleared mathcam yesterday for vitR's attitude towards him, now you'rd voting cam, now following vitR onto sotty. you voted and/or maligned ut, ctd, glork, pj, undo. were on lml til it mattered then hardcore off and absent at deadline. you don't seem to be able to keep your suspicions straight. total 180 on bookitty, unexplained? what gives, man?

[Sotty7]

Sorry for not posting the last couple of days, got distracted with 4 of July stuff.

The votes on me are somewhat weak. I kinda understand Chamber's, even if I don't agree with him (Spryex vote). VitR has been fumbling around trying to find reasons to find me scummy with the rest of the town and despite being unable to really come up with anything he still places a vote. That's the weakest one of the three. ABR's is probably a momentum shiftier and I'm not really too bothered about it.

I'm going to catch up with the rest of the thread now.

[Sotty7]

Yeah I still think mathcam is town. Bookitty's pressure looks OK on the surface and her activity compared to yesterday is greatly improved, so I am back to feeling comfortable about her.

Spyrex is still awful. The vote was bad simply because he had one throw away sentence about STD then voted that slot right after DGB asked the town if he could be scum. It just felt like he was placating to DGB while qualifying that he still isn't caught up yet.

DGB feels a lot more town today with the scumputer and her directional pushes. It has really made me less willing to vote her, but I could be over compensating her new found investment in the game, but I'm totally fine with that right now.

I have also changed my opinion on MBL, feeling he is likely town. Not willing to vote there anymore.

I still like CES for scum, I think mathcam's and Poro's point of him feeling pretty un-invested rings true. I'm not really interested in VitR's reasoning for deflecting for him. I just need to see more.

[VitaminR]

The votes on me are somewhat weak. I kinda understand Chamber's, even if I don't agree with him (Spryex vote). VitR has been fumbling around trying to find reasons to find me scummy with the rest of the town and despite being unable to really come up with anything he still places a vote. That's the weakest one of the three. ABR's is probably a momentum shiftier and I'm not really too bothered about it.

I mostly voted you without accompanying text to see how you would respond and this is a very convenient reaction to those votes, given that I'm the one of the three under the most suspicion. You realize that I had the same reaction as chamber to your SpyreX vote, right? I just voted you later, because I wanted to hear you explain it first. Why does that give chamber a pass, but not me?

But let me articulate my reasons for suspecting you:
1) You've been under the radar all game, hardly making any real waves.
2) You said you were suspicious of LML almost all day Day 1 and called LML 'probably scum' quite early on, but kept your vote parked on BooKitty all day.
3) Your posts are mostly reasonable and careful, but they hide the fact that a lot of your votes have been on really easy targets, including that BooKitty/Seol vote on Day 1. Since then, you've voted SpyreX/inHim/etc., and DGB and mathcam when those wagons had plenty of support. Your only really original vote was on MBL Day 2 and you've quickly let that go.
4) Your response to ABR's push on me feels opportunistic to me. Your first post in response says you have a solid town read on me, but are 'willing to reevaluate'. That just reads like something scum says so you can later justify an apparent change of mind (and your reaction here seems designed to push that same narrative).

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian: What do you think of mathcam's opinion of CES? 1894

It feels like a reasonable post to me, and like I think I made clear, I'd rather lynch CES then mathcam today.

CES also voted Mathcam a lot yesterday. If they're both scum, they've been distancing for a while.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

pj, I think you and I read lml's interactions with mafiassk and saw opposite things. do you think my take is off-base? Lml definitely had an allergic reaction to being caught fosing ssk. It felt to me like if ssk were scum, lml might have puffed up his chest and claimed to have caught Scum upon being called out. I went on about it a bit end of day yesterday.. please let me know what you think.

I have admittedly been less and less sure about my mathcam (MafiaSSK) suspicion; the votes on him today "do not inspire trust." But I would not put any weight on what LoudmouthLee might or might not have done if MafiaSSK was Scum; I think how he treated MafiaSSK is very consistent with MafiaSSK being scum. He placed an unexplained FoS on him based on my post (which also did not actually give an explanation) and then never pursued the subject again. In other words, had MafiaSSK actually garnered a bigger and more dangerous bandwagon LoudmouthLee had the opportunity to jump back on (for bus points) but he clearly had a preference for his vote being somewhere else if possible. Now we know the answer for why his Vote Count Analysis ended up voting Untrod Tripod (the question Glork tried to focus on)... and it was at the very least in part because Untrod Tripod was Town. He switched voting me when pressured because I was also Town. Note that he did not vote the others attacking him (such as VitaminR).

I think relying on the theory that LoudmouthLee must have bussed

somebody

is faulty (and by extension, the thought that he would bus partners who are under some pressure is faulty), especially since so many players in this game are apparently aware of that "meta." Metas can change, and this is an Invitational game when his last games on site were years ago such that he may have purposefully played against his meta (perhaps even at the behest of his partners).

2.)

While I am not enthused with Albert B. Rampage, I think he could easily be right on the money on VitaminR. VitaminR has looked scummier every Day of the game. His Sotty7 vote in particular made me curl my lip. VitaminR's play, as I said earlier, looks like he is trying to set himself for play later in the game; he inoffensively is trying to join wagons. I would be willing to lynch him.

3.)

chamber, answer my questions. They are not difficult, and this is not a lot to ask. You said you would answer today if we were both still alive. Now we're here. Suck it up.

[chamber]

They aren't, but I expect you to be annoying about it, especially now. So no? I don't really care if you think I'm scum or not.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm frustrated by the slow pace of the game so I'm bandwagonning.

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: SpyreX
Vote: chamber

If you're going to be useless and purposefully make yourself unreadable, then I can just stubbornly park my vote on you and refuse to move it for the rest of the day, making achieving a lynch more difficult. I don't know if you're scum, but you're definitely not acting like Town. Most of your posts in this game can be boiled down to "actually, that's not a bean, that's a legume." You are making slight corrections on other players' statements without really holding yourself to statements. If this is how you play, then I will stoop down to your level.

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm frustrated by the slow pace of the game so I'm bandwagonning.

It's Day 3 and we're well under a 100 pages!