Open 561: Farmer's Market (Game Over)

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Also bulge is hayato still scum?

[The Bulge]

There's nothing that can really be said in reply to any of this post except for one part.

Here's what points to you being mafia.

1) Your "playstyle" seems to be trying to keep us with no player information, which is indicative of scum. We lose out a lot by discussing how we use the fruit all day then having to compromise deadline lynch, and you seem to have 0 intention of talking about anything but the fruit.
2) You've decided he's scum to be lynched really fast.

I still stand by the fact that these are weak-ass reasons. Night actions are extremely important, and we hadn't decided on anything. Only scum would want strategy discussion to stop.

Oh, Now I see why you ran the two spoilers. This makes NO sense next to what you said in the other one. I was "waiting for the opportunity to jump onto hayato's plan." Where does this opportunity come from if the strategy discussion stops?

Actually, there's no contradiction here.
flaw in your logic =/= flaw in my logic.
Basically what I'm saying is it is entirely possible that you sought to end discussion without realizing that this would effectively ruin your plan to switch night action plans, and you are now attributing this logical flaw to me and using it to tear apart my case. I can't be sure of this, of course. And it does sound a little farfetched.
But it's still not a contradiction for one painfully obvious reason: it happened. You complained and urged to stop discussion, and yet you still ended up getting the opportunity to switch plan ideas. If the discussion had stopped earlier, you could easily have flipped earlier.
Oh and if you must know, I used the spoilers because I thought they looked nice and clean.

PEDIT: No, after rereading and reevaluating, I have a town read on hayato.

[Formerfish]

Before I start reading, I'd like to know if anyone took a look at the only other iteration of this game?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Wait, there's another one? Okays.

Nobody's mentioned it yet.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay, so the other one they completely ignored the fruits it looks like.

Welp.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Btw, as should be really obvious, bulge's case is not the result of him looking at my posts, responding to each one and deciding "hey, siv is scum." It's him deciding "hey, siv is scum", looking at my posts and responding to each one. I'd like to know why you actually think I'm scum?

[Bins]

In the other one, town lost pretty badly (lynched one mafia day 1 and still lost). IIRC, they didn't fruit until night 3, and when they did, it was a shitstorm (idek if it was random/in an order). Xay (the winning scum) managed to use a "I fruited the guy that died." excuse and won. Town played terrible.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Hayato, we'll have 10 people tonight. If we make giving fruit optional we could get some people not using their fruit, we get some people recieving fruit from many people (some of which could be scum lying), and we could get one scum claiming to give fruit to the other. Sure there's some information in there, but there's a shit-ton of noise as well, so it's incredibly unlikely we get any useful information.

However, one mafia by themselves has issues. If we do get a mafia lynch today we can make it optional, I think.

About your plan, not quite. Any two where one gave fruit to the other CAN be scum together because the first kills and claims giving fruit to the second.

So yeah, I'd say it should be optional if we lynch mafia today but not otherwise.

So I was making it absolutely clear I wanted the compulsory plan and then I swapped out of nowhere?

VOTE: The Bulge

VOTE: The Bulge

VOTE: The Bulge

[The Bulge]

Hayato, we'll have 10 people tonight. If we make giving fruit optional we could get some people not using their fruit, we get some people recieving fruit from many people (some of which could be scum lying), and we could get one scum claiming to give fruit to the other. Sure there's some information in there, but there's a shit-ton of noise as well, so it's incredibly unlikely we get any useful information.

However, one mafia by themselves has issues. If we do get a mafia lynch today we can make it optional, I think.

About your plan, not quite. Any two where one gave fruit to the other CAN be scum together because the first kills and claims giving fruit to the second.

So yeah, I'd say it should be optional if we lynch mafia today but not otherwise.

So I was making it absolutely clear I wanted the compulsory plan and then I swapped out of nowhere?

VOTE: The Bulge

VOTE: The Bulge

VOTE: The Bulge

What does this prove? Both of those have the condition "if we lynch scum today", a requirement which we have not yet met.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I don't want to lose the opportunity to lynch scum by losing the argument with you.

Not talking to bulge anymore.

[havingfitz]

Fruit to the person below you just gets rid of a nightkill.

I still think doing the fruit-circle on two nights is the optimal strategy, we just gotta work out which nights.

Are you describing the same thing in these two lines? Or is the "fruit-circle" different than what mathperson suggested?

[havingfitz]

Instead of making it compulsory for everyone to give fruits, why not make it optional.

That way we have something way better than two no-night kills: Information.

I do not see giving out fruit optionally working. Not sure what info you expect to get from optional fruit dispensing either. Any number less than all doing the same thing will only serve to confuse things. Getting 2 no kills (worst case) is pretty good. Even if we do not hit scum during the day we're at least looking at 7v2 (essentially a newbie game) but with two days worth of info to go off. Making it optional would give scum too many opportunities to make shit up. Especially if they throw in a no kill or are in a position to claim they gave each other fruit.

[havingfitz]

Assuming you mean go with the list order plan but don't make it mandatory...
1) It's a waste of fruit for people who do decide to give.
2) It only works as process of elimination and gives us nothing conclusive.
3) It is incredibly easy for mafia to work around it (ie, take turns killing)
4) It won't stop any night kills.

We're making it compulsive.

^ this.

Bulge is town.

[Bins]

Urgh, I don't like how I feel about you, Siveure. You're giving off one of those "I'm pushing for a lynch on town, not scum." feel.

PEdit: YAY! I'm not crazy for almost being certian Bulge is town.

[havingfitz]

Anyway looking at the people who jumped onto the wagon.

VOTE: the bulge

I think...but am not sure...that at this point you are in agreement with the Bulge (and several others) that the compulsory fruit giving is optimal? How is the Bulge more suspect than the other two voting Hayato??? Your vote seems serious yet baseless.

[Formerfish]

First let me get some of the pleasantries out of the way.
Hello TSO, and Hayato. Nice to see you both.
The rest of you I do not know yet, so Hi.

@Don

- You were in the first run of this game, but replaced out, how much of it did you actually read? More questions based off your response. What is it that you aren’t buying from IV?

@Siv

- 2 nights of no kills seems like a good idea to me, your use of the word “just” makes it sound like you think it is a suboptimal plan. What are you talking about with a fruit circle? You said “still think” it’s a good idea, but I don’t see that mentioned anywhere else. “The best we can hope for it we prevent two night kills” that sounds like a pretty good deal actually, why again are you shitting all over the idea of 2 nights free of death? That means that we are going to have 3 days worth of information to be able to examine before we even worry about a kill. And then when the killing starts we we be able to examine the kill choices in context with the lynches to find a fairly decent shot of getting scum. And that is with the idea that we don’t hit scum before then. And you find scum during the day by catching them saying stupid shit like they don’t know how to win during the day.

I was thinking about this, and it's risky. And it's also a bit silly. I was focusing on getting an extra lynch and it's pretty much impossible.
Hayato, what about the information an extra lynch would give? What about the information we get from the people who would have died? "Information" is so nebulous it's not really worth it.

It seems like you are agreeing with Bulge, but then you vote him in the next post for “jumping” on a Hayato wagon. Explain this seeming discrepancy. Ok, so you kinda do, but you blame the vote on him pushing a lynch based off playstyle and not alignment. Again something that hasn’t been brought up previously in the thread. What do you know about Hayatos playstyle and why do you think Bulge is pushing a lynch based off that? You don’t think scum would put forth an idea that seemingly makes sense to them, but in reality is just shit? And again you mention “Our Plan” in reference to the plan that Bulge has solidified, yet you are voting him. There is a disconnect here. How can you judge the quickness of someone deciding they want to lynch a player? I decide in one post sometimes and fucking run it into the ground. Sometimes a person is just able to pick something up that pings them so hard they see red. #103 has you now against the ordered plan, going with Hayato and talking about the fruit circle again. I am still curious about where the fruit circle idea was ever explained. In #112 you mention that everything he has posted could come from scumBulge, where did you dive into his meta to gain that viewpoint?

#79 is me saying "The info from hayato's plan is better, but nobody besides us gets the plan so the information will go completely to waste if we do it because we'll die in the interim."

How do you get this (above) from this (below)

I kinda see what hayato is planning.

But yeah, I say we just run it the other way. There aren't enough people who get it for us to not just get wiped out at night and screwed over.

Especially when #80 has you saying that Hayatos plan doesn’t actually make sense.

I don't want to lose the opportunity to lynch scum by losing the argument with you.
Not talking to bulge anymore.

Town normally doesn’t do this IMO.

@Bulge

- It’s a solid plan, and one that was proposed in the first game as well. Can you guess which alignment suggested it without looking, I will give you a cookie if you can.

@TSO & Bulge
Have you really made some thought on what would have happend if we let people optionally give fruit? If so, why doesn't it make any sense?

Assuming you mean go with the list order plan but don't make it mandatory...
1) It's a waste of fruit for people who do decide to give.
2) It only works as process of elimination and gives us nothing conclusive.
3) It is incredibly easy for mafia to work around it (ie, take turns killing)
4) It won't stop any night kills.
We're making it compulsive.

I like this post a lot from you. I don’t see this coming from a scum mindset whatsoever. Also don’t see many scum who want a vote count out there.

@Hayato

- every plan has a loop hole in it, if not then this wouldn’t be any fun. The chance that scum are paired up is very low, and it looks like you are trying to stall. And I hope your vote on Don was still RVS. And then you legit use an RVS vote as evidence of scum (nice attempt to discredit Bulge by calling him a newbie btw)… Only too then, within 3 posts where you pose a scenario, answer it yourself, and change your opinion, decide that maybe the scum busser has a good plan. Your idea of optional fruit giving is horrible, and you should probably see rope for suggesting it. You seriously think that getting the info off 2 night kills would be more beneficial than 3 whole days of discussion? Your vote on Bulge is bad, and you should feel bad. If you don’t think Bulge is scum, why are you voting him? No one said you are stupid, projecting a bit? I am baffled by post #94 by the way. Did you really declare you vote as serious this late in the game? RVS has been over for quite some time, and you’ve made other serious votes, why is this one more serious than the others?

@Math

- #69 was pointless, especially considering what else is going on in the game. You scum coming in to whiteknight your buddy? Telling him to eventually come over to the other side and agree with the original plan? You guys must not have daychat. Do you think that IV is scum lurking? Activity has nothing to do with alignment.

Town
Bulge
Don
Aronis
TSO
Have
Bins
IV
________________________________ Lynch line
Math
Haya
Siv

Vote Siv

[havingfitz]

I think he actually believes his strategy is optimal. I really don't think he realizes our strategy is optimal and is trying to get us to do something suboptimal as scum. His proposal is completely alignment neutral.

Why would scum try to push the optimal strategy? They wouldn't. If you think he [Bulge] "believes his strategy is optimal," then he would be siding with those pushing what he would think was the suboptimal strategy. I.e. your accusations towards the Bulge support him being town.

[havingfitz]

Why exactly aren't you trying to lynch him if you think he's scum?

Isn't he voting him at this point in the game? WTH? Voting means you are trying to lynch someone. Everyone pushes their suspects differently. The scale could be anywhere from placing a silent vote to jumping up and down making wallposts of a case.

[havingfitz]

Uhhh, math is ALSO over-focusing on the fruits.

VOTE: Mathbandit

whuh?

[Bins]

Unofficial Votecount 1.1

(L-3)

Siveure DtTrikyp (3) -

havingfitz, The Bulge, Formerfish

mathbandit (2) -

don_johnson, hayatoBL

The Bulge (1) -

Siveure DtTrikyp

innocentvillager (1) -

mathbandit

Not Voting (4) -

Aronis, innocentvillager, T S O, Bins

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

-- Note: sorry if anything is wrong, just thought this was due for an update.

[havingfitz]

Any reason to vote me?

Basically your suspicions/votes on Bulge and mathbandit don't make sense to me. It looks like you are trying to makes cases on them that do not exist.

I also don't like the way hayato is following you around...with equally absent vote logic.

@Siveure...which strategy do you currently support wrt the giving of fruit?

[havingfitz]

Because everything looks like it could have come from scum-bulge.

Like what?

Have you played with scum-Bulge and town-Bulge before?

[havingfitz]

fitz: long time no see. what do you make of this nonsense and where do you sit on the fruit plans?

Hiya. Too much fruit speculation...we need to keep it simple and take benefit what we can get. I in the "Everyone gives out their fruit" camp.

[Aronis]

In the other one, town lost pretty badly (lynched one mafia day 1 and still lost). IIRC, they didn't fruit until night 3, and when they did, it was a shitstorm (idek if it was random/in an order). Xay (the winning scum) managed to use a "I fruited the guy that died." excuse and won. Town played terrible.

This is exactly why we need to stick to the no kill for two nights plan.

Not ready to jump on the Siv wagon yet. It's just too early, but yeah he needs to lay off. His tunneling and attacking everyone who went after Hayato is insane, like there's only two scum anyway. Someone there has to be town at least.

[Bins]

Unlike Aronis, let's hop on this baby. I said I was def okay with this wagon since Bulge was obvs Town and I had my suspicions about Siv. I think the cases against him have been made and I have nothing more to say than: Cool. that makes a bunch of sense.


and hopefully since he's unwillingly to talk to Bulge, he'll talk to his other fellow players.

VOTE: Siv
(I guess I should have done this before the VC, m'bad.)

@Aronis -- yeah, idk. I'm not great at strategy but preventing kills is numero uno magnifico in my book.