NY175: Sycamore Scuffle

[Alina]

Hunter will take 2 seconds, dude.

[TheAdrienC]

Hunter will take 2 seconds, dude.

Yes, but I have to leave for work in 6 and a half hours. I shouldn't be trying to do Clusk's but I want to get it done before it bothers me when I'm laying down.

[Alina]

Oh, damn. That sucks. It's cool though, get some sleep (Now it's a reverse situation!). It'd be better for you to do it when you're rested than when you're tired and possibly rushing :P

[TheAdrienC]

I'm not falling asleep or extremely fatigued. I just will be when I wake up in the morning. It's not like my job is all that hard.

[TheAdrienC]

ISO on Clusk

For most of the game, I haven't really had a good read on Clusk. Boon pointed out there hasn't been a whole lot of interaction between me and him and I guess that probably does hinder my ability. And I understand that a lot of what people want out of Clusk is for him to respond to stuff, something I'm probably not going to pick up upon looking through his ISO.

His first few posts don't really make me feel strongly either way about him.

VOTE: Wake88

For voting for Not_Mafia then FoSing someone for voting for Not_Mafia for the same reasons he did.

We all kinda posted something along these lines so he blended in well with us.

Unvote: Not_Mafia

Vote: Wake88

What the fuck...?

Missed this post, why did you change vote, was it because he FoSed you?

Questioned Scarab's vote change. If it wasn't for the "Missed this post", I'd say it was a town read. I'm still reading it with a bit of a null read though, but it was something Scarab should've addressed (Scarab kinda side-stepped the question, but that doesn't say anything about Clusk). Clusk's next few posts were just some questions he was pressing Wake about their theories on how to do a reaction test in the game of mafia followed by his response to Scarab's response to the above quote.

Unvote: Not_Mafia

Vote: Wake88

What the fuck...?

Missed this post, why did you change vote, was it because he FoSed you?

Do you actually think based on his post that this is the most likely reason?

No, I'm just looking for specific clarification on why you voted someone.

In my opinion, Clusk should've shown a bit more backbone and press harder for a response from Scarab if he wanted an answer to the question. Because he didn't get "specific clarification" on why Scarab changed his vote. Could Clusk just have been satisfied Scarab was on his wagon? Maybe but then why did he ask the question in the first place? Maybe this is the "forced" everyone said some of my posts looked? Then there was this little argument with Salamence. I'll just post all Clusk's posts from that "manipulating for votes debate".

Trying to get two different people to vote for Wake doesn't reflect well on you, Salamence.

Whos the other person?

I thought you was talking to Alina but I now see you posted at the same time, so sorry.

But still, manipulating a newbie in to voting for someone is still suspicious.

@

Clusk92

Why does it not reflect well on Salamence? You're voting wake too, right? I assume he's your top scumread, so shouldn't you be happy people are pushing other people to vote for him?

Regardless of my opinion on Wake, I find trying to force votes on to people without letting them come to their own conclusions first pretty scummy, in my opinion.

I was more looking at his post of suspicion on sal for asking people to vote for wake, but his next line he has wake as a scum read. This is something of a newb scum tell (well maybe to me) you set up someone suspicious for pushing a lynch that you can point to later. The fact that clusk finds wake the scummiest added to my suspicion of his comment.
Short response: pushing a wagon on a player you find scummy shouldn't bother you when you were following that players logic in the first place.

So you think people should vote for somebody just because someone told them to without coming to a conclusion themselves and thats ok? Righto. Also my scumreads are totally irrelevant to the point I'm making.

Weirdly enough even though I think SKOT is batshit crazy, he stills comes across as town to me, and I am not a fan of policy lynches, 100% of the time policy lynches are bad.

How is a player ordering/pressuring somebody (twice) to vote for someone

not

manipulative?

How is a player ordering/pressuring somebody (twice) to vote for someone

not

manipulative?

Did he threaten the player? No. He made a statement.
Again people have a brain and can decide to vote or not vote.
Telling a player to vote once or twice is not manipulation. It's a request, so far you haven't explained how it manipulation.

Didn't seem like much of a request to me - more like an order. It's manipulation by definition of the word - stop splitting hairs.

That's seven posts about that, pretty much saying the same thing. He's got two more to bring it up to nine. Since his ISO has 24 posts, it's just a bit under half his posts arguing that Salamence was Jedi mind tricks to make everyone lynch Wake (which votes were being removed after all of that, not going on him, in Salamence's defense). Was all of these posts really required to make your opinion known? I know I get annoyed if I have to repeat myself a lot in mafia games so I know this wasn't something he didn't realize he was doing. And I did ask him a question about the one thing that bothered me a lot when all of this going on.

If you truly believe that he is manipulating the town, why aren't you voting for him? Show some backbone. Personally, I believe it was a request than a demand.

Because despite that one post, he's generally seemed like town to me. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

He wasted all those posts on how Salamence manipulated people (or just Alina) and called him suspicious. But as he was posting all of this, I addressed him and said "If you find it so suspicious and such a big deal, vote for him. He gave me a fair answer, but I felt like that if he felt he was town, why go through the whole exercise in the first place?

vote sala...

Fuck it. I havent had any bullshit yet in this game, so now is the time:

Kill: SKOT

When he flips scum aegor is town

Does this end the day?

Someone wanted the day to hurry up and end. Could he have been a mafia member who was getting impatient and wanted to get rid of someone? Farside and boonskiies had votes on him. Farside also was seen as pretty town by

most

of us (there are some exceptions on the opinion of farside, your mileage may vary). After all the arguing, he could've been a bit sick of farside and was ready to off her for the night. Granted, all of this is speculative and not hard evidence. The WIFOM is strong with this, but I thought it was worth pointing out.

^ That. If you thought it was still possibly a gambit, why claim?

because an exposed role player around here can be a good thing with a doc around since you can repeat protections. I am either dead, in which case you can factor that in for someone who is reactive and needs out of the game. It won't kill the game if I end up NK.

So I want Sala to admit his bullshit. Then I want him run up to a claim.

How do you know there's a doctor?

Rolefishing? Still hard to really pin this on him as that, but it rubs me the wrong way.

Top scumreads atm are Boon, Wake and Scarab

Can you please provide your reasons for these three being your top reads? You just listed who you thought was scum, someone being a vote you have had on since the beginning of the game. When someone asked him to explain his reads...

So what you give you explanations for them whatsoever. Saying they scumread without saying why is weird.

That your top scumreads are the group's means setting up to wagon a lynch

.

Explain yourself.

Or it shows that those 3 are the ones that are coming across as most scummy - which they are.

Other people haven't explained their scumreads either so I don't see why its weird.

I'll explain mine later if it makes you happy, can't be bothered atm.

And 36 hours later, we never heard from him again. No explanation, no reasons, no answers. And it can't be because he hasn't been online because as farside provided with us, he has been online and posting elsewhere. So clusk, here are my questions for you:

Are those three still your top reads? Why were they your top reads and why are your current top reads your top reads now? Why have you been avoiding this particular game thread and playing everywhere else? And why are you avoiding answering any questions or accusations pointed out by the rest of the group.

He's suspicious, alright. It took putting him underneath a microscope to really realize that. So my judgement...

Judgement: Leaning slightly scum. I could be talked into voting for him and may threaten to hammer if he gets to L-1

[Aeronaut]

My thoughts on just a few people, partially because this is a phone post and partially because there are actually still people I didn't know were in the game. :/

Sal/Replacement - null leaning scum. Sal seems like someone who finally got a scum role and was defending it like crazy. He also was just sort of crazy though, so whatever. However, some of the replacement's posts(sorry, your name isn't on this page) seem sort of... off... I don't know. They're insightful, yes, but something strikes me off about them.

Adrien - null leaning town. Seems to be genuinely helping the town. It seems like someone who was scum wouldn't be trying so hard to scum hunt, however I feel like a scum could do that to try really hard to look town... Hmm.... Most of your logic makes sense to me at least though, so you're leaning town for me. Don't ruin it.

Clusk -

acting

quite scummy at the moment, however, I actually think it's more likely that he just got sick of this game and hasn't felt like coming back and reading this clusterfûçk. I'm not so sure he's actually scum, because I feel like scum might be a little more engaged than he is being. Seems like someone with a power role, but is just angry at the game to me.

Hunterseeker - Needs to post. Something. Anything.

Basically, considering changing my vote from Hunter to a Cluck, because I had originally voted Hunter because he wasn't helping town, so that made him anti-town. However, Clusk is now doing the same thing, but actively, and while already seeming a bit scummy in the first place. So Clusk strikes me as someone who is just trying to get through the night because he wante to use his role, whatever it is.

FOS: Clusk

[Aeronaut]

Hahaha, change "a cluck" to Clusk. Lol at autocorrect

Also meant to hold people's names. Sorry if that's annoying

[Mirhawk]

I understand where the fake bit on AC is coming from. I don't think it's quite alignment indicative though as it feels to me more like he's trying too hard, and this is what makes his posts feel forced. I would probably class his spat with Sal as town vs town.

Clusk has gone into full lurk mode, which given the timing doesn't make him look any better. I'm now actively interested in a Clusk lynch pending his responses to what players have said about him

Scarab has decided that if he can't argue me into changing my vote he'll just ignore me. This actually makes him look a little more town in my eyes.

I don't like the wagon on Hunterseeker. I don't want to waste our lynch on a lurker when we get way more valuable information from lynching a active player.

@Aeronaught
So a FOS on Clusk for being a PR? I don't think I'm following your logic on this.

[Aeronaut]

Not for being a PR, but for lurking quite a bit. And as Farside has pointed out, he's been doing it actively. I think he got some pressure on him, and then decided to leave the game for awhile so that he could make it to the night.

But that's just how he seems to me. Not quite sure about it yet, which is why I haven't switched my vote quite yet.

[Mirhawk]

I guess, But I don't see this a particularly more likely for PR's over other players.

Personally I would think if he was a PR he would be trying harder to not get lynched.

[Aeronaut]

I guess, But I don't see this a particularly more likely for PR's over other players.

Personally I would think if he was a PR he would be trying harder to not get lynched.

That's true, I guess. I think he needs to make a post, though.

[farside22]

bp: have you read the game in full? Because you literally sat there with your suspicion based on behavoir that looks made up on me and wake.

Jul

(quote tags fixed by Toomai)

OK, I am scared to go down the rabbit-hole with farside22 but I guess I have to. I have played two recent games with farside22 and both games I knew she was town from like the first 4 or 5 posts. I am not getting a strong town read on her here and that is making me nervous. If it is still relevant (might not be) I would like her to at least address a couple things: in post 144 where you call wake a bad-town read as opposed to scum. What differentiates him as bad-town vs. scum? Also, how do you feel your pushing on Clusk about the definition of manipulate led into your read of him? I admit I feel like a hypocrite because I scum read him based on his pushing of Salemance's manipulation but I felt like your hounding him on "definitions" just came off as a little too much of nothing. If you can elaborate on what you gained from it I would appreciate it. From the town-side of my farside read I have liked her vote on clusk, her paranoia over Alina buddying her, and her stance on not-policy-lynching SKOT.

I called wake bad town based on his post of saying I'm reaction hunting and keeps posting. Usually if scum does something to the effect of hypocrisy they will lurks about or laugh it off, he kept encouraging the votes and discussion which when you get mob mentality is really stupid to do.

Clusk argument. He kept fluffing off my argument as though it was meaniless. His reasoning was not valid and when he claimed that what sal was doing was the very definition of manipulation I quoted from wester dictionary the definition and ask which fit the correct definition. (It's my way of invalidation his attempt to again fluff his statement using facts). Currently since then he had lurked and has scum reads that are the majority with no reason.

I gained a scum read that I will push till he respond or gets lynched.

Alina: my read on bp is that he's not interacting with those he's calling scum. They respond to the case and he doesn't always respond back and then holds onto his scum reads for weak reasons.

[farside22]

mod: please fix quote tags above

Will do.

[Aeronaut]

Can there be a vote count whenever you get the chance Toomai?

[Toomai]

Clusk92 has requested replacement via PM.

Votecount D1-14

Sharpest-knife-on-tree	L-11	0	—
Cabd	L-11	0	—
TheAdrienC	L-10	1	Boonskiies
reinoe	L-11	0	—
Wake88	L-9	2	Clusk92, reinoe
Burning_TowN	L-11	0	—
shaddowez	L-11	0	—
Damon_Gant	L-11	0	—
Mirhawk	L-10	1	Scarab
Not_Mafia	L-10	1	HunterSeeker
Aegor	L-11	0	—
Scarab	L-8	3	Mirhawk, Sharpest-knife-on-tree, BP
farside22	L-11	0	—
Boonskiies	L-10	1	Burning_TowN
BroodKingEXE	L-11	0	—
Juls	L-11	0	—
Aeronaut	L-11	0	—
HunterSeeker	L-7	4	Not_Mafia, Aeronaut, Damon_Gant, Aegor
Clusk92	L-8	3	farside22, shaddowez, Alina
BP	L-10	1	Wake88
Alina	L-11	0	—

Not voting:

BroodKingEXE, Juls, TheAdrienC, Cabd

Activity

reinoe is V/LA until 08/07/2014.
farside22 is V/LA until 08/07/2014.

Current deadline

27/07/2014 11:27 (EDT)
(expired on 2014-07-27 11:27:31)

[farside22]

Aeronat what is with the flip flip read on clusk
One point you think he maybe town but the say he is scummy.

[Aeronaut]

Aeronat what is with the flip flip read on clusk
One point you think he maybe town but the say he is scummy.

Yea...

I think what I was trying to say is that I was unsure about Hunterseeker or Clusk. I made the post over the course of an hour or so (like I started typing, got up, and came back, did some more reading on the two of them, and then finished my analysis), so I guess my opinion sort of changed halfway through typing.

But basically I agree that it's strange that Clusk is in other games and ignoring ours, so he could be scummy because of that, but also on that point, he could just be really lazy town.

I'm sure both he and hunter will magically appear right before they get prodded though, so maybe we'll get something out of them then.

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Clusk

That's a scum replace out

[Aeronaut]

VOTE: Clusk

That's a scum replace out

I want to see what the replacement has to say first, but yea, I sort of agree.

[Aegor]

Also I'm pretty much taking this as a mod multiball slip/confirmation. Assuming multiball until I see otherwise.

we been over this, it is dangerous to make such speculation. Mod meta indicates standard rules.

This post makes me very uncomfortable.

VOTE: Clusk

That's a scum replace out

I do not understand. Clusk is still in the game, right?

[Cabd]

Clusk is still in the game, right?

Clusk92 has requested replacement via PM.

[Aegor]

@farside:

Is this the question you meant?

Another question. If this is your top scum read why are you not voting for him?

I do not always vote the person I find scummiest. This is even more true when there is a significant amount of time before deadline (18 days would qualify).

[Aegor]

Clusk is still in the game, right?

Clusk92 has requested replacement via PM.

Thanks. I was looking at the bottom of the VC.

[Aegor]

Current lynchpool:

{Wake, Boonskiies, SKOT, BroodKing, HunterSeeker}

[Cabd]

I'm still catching up but I sort of like that list minus SKOT. I think he's town for ~reason~