NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote

[Save The Dragons]

Forgive me, I'm really upset because I stupidly clicked that little X and lost a large post I was working on.

UNVOTE: mathcam
VOTE: Save The Dragons

Albert, ISO STD and then get in on this.

@STD:

Also I'm curious why you care so much that it's ABR who looks at my posts, but I doubt I'll get an answer to that so I'll let it be.

Oh, I'm happy to answer this. I think it's interesting that this is your question, rather than the obvious one: "why are you voting me?" You care enough about my position to pose a question relating to it, but the question only indirectly addresses my position and, even then, you undercut the imperative for me to answer it.

First of all, these two are ridiculous. You try to paint me as being bussed by LML, then you ask someone to ISO my posts, then you harp on my question even though I pointed out exactly why it would have been stupid for me to ask the question you "found it so strange I didn't ask"?

GC, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and tell us all what the hell is in my ISO that made you think I'm scummy?

Post for DGB incoming.

[mathcam]

I'm not sure DGB sees herself as a likely lynch tomorrow if SGB flips town, nor am I particularly convinced that scum-DGB wouldn't be willing to make that bet and then try to scramble her way out of it the next day. Regardless, the point probably isn't worth debating too much until we see STD.

[Save The Dragons]

I've tried to ascertain if you were town, DGB, on D3. I asked legitimate questions about your scumputer and you, (and later SpyreX and CES), basically spat in my face even after I pointed out the fact I had never seen it before AND it is objectively unreliable. You want to use it to determine who's bandwagony? Fine. You want to use it to determine scum? Fallacy. You should know that, and that's what frustrates me.

I'm trying to ascertain it now because everyone seems convinced that you're just being yourself and you couldn't possibly play this way if you were scum, which is confusing to me. Make a lot of noise, post a lot of fluff, kick up as much dust as possible to a point where you're often actively distracting the town, and get called town for it because "that's just how you roll?" Sounds like a good strategy to me, but I haven't played in 6 years and last time I saw you, if I recall correctly you played a lot differently.

This is the first time you've remotely considered the possibility that we're both town. As for me, I'm often wrong. I don't fucking know because it seems like everyone is convinced you're town, and I'm spending a lot of my time trying to wrestle with my read and PJ's opinion vs. everyone else's meta read. I don't like meta as an argument personally and I have tried to avoid it all game but I'm not sure if that's a good gameplay strategy anymore. (for the record the only time I think I mentioned someone else's meta was in regards to Sotty, and I was arguing VitR's opinion that Sotty wasn't as aggressive in that game. But if I'm wrong feel free to correct me).

Your scumputer put Sotty, a townread and mason at the top, ABR, a town read for me, at the top. It is clear to me your scumputer is not helpful, it seems clear to many others that it is not helpful, and I got burned because I tried to figure out if you were carefully pruning the numbers or just picking a tell that may be more likely to be true and exacerbating it.

I have townread chamber, Porochaz, undo, sotty, UT, ABR, OGML, and VitR, so lack of townreads is incorrect. OGML definitely was mentioned today, and I believe ABR was. If not, VitR, OGML, ABR, Poro, chamber and sotty was mentioned yesterday.

I made a case against SpyreX yesterday and I was unconvinced on CES. The day before I explained why I thought mathcam and MBL were scummy. I made a case on you. D1 I made cases on LML and PJ. I have been making cases with the limited time I've had to play.

When you say things like "Hint: here's the answer" in response to a question it makes me doubt you want me to answer any of your questions, so forgive me if I ignored your post previously. 3194 is a legit post from you.

If you're town, the scumputer would work magic for you...

I'm going to stop you right there. The scumputer

is

crap. Yes, SpyreX. It is crap. Objectively. Quote this post next time, instead of the half-joking post that you took out of context and strawmanned against me. I pointed out a fallacy and do not wish to ever speak of the scumputer again. If you want to call it "the bandwagon index" and use it to say "this player is more likely to be scum because they're higher on the bandwagon index" then I'll talk about it.

I do appreciate the effort, though. It shouldn't be a surprise that it's demoralizing when you're trying your best and all you get to look forward to in the game is STD IS SCUM STD IS SCUM.

And here for you in color:

Seol/Bookitty (9) --

Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum,

chamber,

Untrod Tripod,

Save the Dragons,

petroleumjelly,

MafiaSSK/mathcam,

undo

MafiaSSK/mathcam (9) --

CrashTextDummie, Cogito Ergo Sum,

Albert B. Rampage, Seol/Bookitty,

Untrod Tripod, DrippingGoofball,

Save the Dragons,

Sotty7, Glork

STD, do you believe that these are both wagons on townies, made up of 100% townies? Hint: you don't. You've been scum often enough to know that this doesn't happen.

Umm...I'm voting for you, so obviously I don't think both wagons are 100% townie. If you are town, I would suspect both bookitty and mathcam a little more. It's also possible chamber and ABR are scum, but I highly doubt it. Regardless, I'd rather look at that combined with other pieces of evidence because there is uncertainty.

I don't share the same vigor as you do when it comes to calling someone confscum. Since it's not definitive, I think I'd rather use something like the above to help confirm a suspicion rather than be the only thing driving...nothing is impossible.

Today my reads have been lacking, yes. Been a little distracted. If you're town, I need you to show me, not tell me.

If you have questions for me I'd be happy to talk with you about them, and if I missed anything then let me know.

[Green Crayons]

@STD:

1) How LML interacted with others is (still) the most vital information we have to figure out who is scum. So, I don't know why you're underplaying just how important that is.

2) As for what I saw in your posts, it had something to do with your play coming across as very measured and safe.

3) Yes, you did try to justify why you didn't ask me about my suspicions of you. And then I said:

It was interesting for the reasons I stated in my original post -- which is more than the fact that you simply did not ask "show me your case."

In response to your earlier post, I don't know whether I would have immediately explained to you or not. At the time, I had thought that you might ask me to explain my position, and I hadn't decided how I would respond if you did, in part because I suspected that ABR would do exactly what he did: not much insofar as what I asked.

[Green Crayons]

That was in response to 3226, if not apparent.

[Save The Dragons]

There's nothing wrong with looking at LML to help you, but in your list of suspicions against me, you quote some stuff regarding LML, which is fine and I can't argue based on what he said, which is why I didn't quote it. I think his case on me was crappy too, I just think he picked me and decided to be stubborn because he knew whoever left standing that he latched onto would get in trouble later. That is my theory, because I don't think mathcam is scum and there's no one left.

But your reason for voting me yesterday seemed similar to "ISO him and find your own reasons!" which has nothing to do with how LML treated me because his posts aren't part of my ISO. So if your suspicion was, when you were voting me, because LML was clearly bussing me, why didn't you mention that? When ABR responded, why did you back down and not push with that?

3) Yes, you did try to justify why you didn't ask me about my suspicions of you. And then I said:

It was interesting for the reasons I stated in my original post -- which is more than the fact that you simply did not ask "show me your case."

In response to your earlier post, I don't know whether I would have immediately explained to you or not. At the time, I had thought that you might ask me to explain my position, and I hadn't decided how I would respond if you did, in part because I suspected that ABR would do exactly what he did: not much insofar as what I asked.

And then I basically said "At the time, I didn't think you would have shown me your case regardless so I wouldn't have asked that question." So I don't know, I fail to see what's so damn suspicious about me asking why you wanted to get ABR's opinion instead of asking a question I didn't think I'd get an answer to.

[Green Crayons]

So if your suspicion was, when you were voting me, because LML was clearly bussing me, why didn't you mention that? When ABR responded, why did you back down and not push with that?

I might have been unclear. What I saw, and wanted to see if ABR also caught, was not STD/LML interactions, but:

2) As for what I saw in your posts, it had something to do with your play coming across as very measured and safe.

I didn't follow through because I think that was around the time that nobody else was voting you, ABR was being a wet fart about "looking" (I think he said that he skimmed and didn't see anything and then let it die), and I had to go enjoy San Antonio for an extended weekend.

-----

You mention your town reads in your most recent DGB response. On the flip side, apart from DGB, who are you other scum candidates? Have you made a post recently summarizing your positions on those players?

[Sotty7]

Catching up on the last 30 odd pages.

Hey Juls, where you at on your re-read? Who are your current scum reads?

P.S: Also <3

[DrippingGoofball]

If you're town, I need you to show me, not tell me.

Another one! I'm not providing enough evidence with my posts, my tone, my objectives, my hard work? Then you can knock all this down by saying that I "can do this as scum."

If

YOU

're town, I need

YOU

to show me, not tell me.

[DrippingGoofball]

Umm...I'm voting for you, so obviously I don't think both wagons are 100% townie. If you are town, I would suspect both bookitty and mathcam a little more. It's also possible chamber and ABR are scum, but I highly doubt it. Regardless, I'd rather look at that combined with other pieces of evidence because there is uncertainty.

Given that I am town, are you saying that the wagons have no scum on it, except perhaps a small unimportant whiff of Bookitty or mathcam?

You can't possibly believe that. You know you can't get a 9-strong wagon without scum on it.

[Juls]

Catching up on the last 30 odd pages.

Hey Juls, where you at on your re-read? Who are your current scum reads?

P.S: Also <3

Page 4.
And Loud Mouth Lee.

I started over. I found that I was just reading and I wasn't absorbing anything. When I put it down and came back to it I was lost. So I am sitting at my computer right now and focusing and taking notes. I promise to be caught up by the end of the day Saturday, maybe sooner, but definitely then! I'm going to try to copy/paste some pages into word or something so I can read them at work (shhh!). It's just real hard to read on my iphone and I do have a sick baby at the moment and {insert another excuse}.

I promise, I will catch up. Promise. And <3. And Sorry.

[Sotty7]

You don't have to be sorry, this game is insanely hard. The mixture of great players and just volume of posting is making it hard to digest. You have any thoughts about the current posting or are you not keeping up too much?

[Juls]

You don't have to be sorry, this game is insanely hard. The mixture of great players and just volume of posting is making it hard to digest. You have any thoughts about the current posting or are you not keeping up too much?

I didn't like 3092 from Yosarian. And I have seen glimmers of that aggressive playstyle I remember from DGB in Flay's War in Heaven II game (where she was scum). I have played two games with DGB, in both she was scum, so I am naturally always suspicious of her. I also didn't like Bookitty basically saying she wouldn't wait for me to catch up. I see no town motivation to NOT let me catch up. I get that you guys have been playing this for months but I am a confirmed town slot and it would probably be a good idea to get my views for that reason alone. I don't think waiting a week will hurt anybody.

[mathcam]

I don't think waiting a week will hurt anybody.

I respectfully disagree. Players are bedraggled, and if we add stagnancy on top of that, all enthusiasm from anyone but scum might dissipate. Plus, I think you can continue to reread and get caught up in your night communications with the masons. I of course agree that it's your prerogative to withhold your vote if you think that's best -- just explaining why I don't see it as anti-town to want to move things along.

[mathcam]

ABR: Wait, did you just unvote STD because Yos voted him?

[Save The Dragons]

I should probably go to bed but eh. If I sound a little loopy that's why.

If you're town, I need you to show me, not tell me.

Another one! I'm not providing enough evidence with my posts, my tone, my objectives, my hard work? Then you can knock all this down by saying that I "can do this as scum."

If

YOU

're town, I need

YOU

to show me, not tell me.

I'm saying when you post crap like this:

DIE DIE DIE DIE

DISPATCH TO INCINERATOR

EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

or this:

Yeah, that's right. My one fake scumread. That's a perfect representations of my positions as they were from my first posts all the way through now. SO fucking spot on.

THE SCUM HIMSELF HAS SPOKEN

HE CANNOT FIGHT OFF THE TRUTH TRAIN COMING FOR HIM

HE HAS SURRENDERED

It makes it really hard for me to pay attention when you post something of worth. You may play however you like but I'm not going to be excited to read your posts when half of them are unhelpful or demoralizing.

When you say "I'm town," it means nothing to me. Just tabulating things on your scumputer is null. You spend a lot of time chasing random wagons D1, and from D2 on you call yourself town a lot and you attack a lot of the people who attack you. You do some anti-town things and are getting some pro-town credit for it. Today I want to know why.

Umm...I'm voting for you, so obviously I don't think both wagons are 100% townie. If you are town, I would suspect both bookitty and mathcam a little more. It's also possible chamber and ABR are scum, but I highly doubt it. Regardless, I'd rather look at that combined with other pieces of evidence because there is uncertainty.

Given that I am town, are you saying that the wagons have no scum on it, except perhaps a small unimportant whiff of Bookitty or mathcam?

You can't possibly believe that. You know you can't get a 9-strong wagon without scum on it.

If you are town, I've just said that Bookitty and mathcam might be scum (they are on each other's wagons). I think that chamber and ABR are less likely. With your alignment up for debate, you've presented a wagon with 2 unknowns and 3 unknowns, so I don't know what you're point is since I would still probably be like "well, let's let other evidence tell me who's scum and not base it on one thing."

Nothing's given. I'd appreciate if you stopped telling me what I believe or know; we appear to have conflicting ideas about this game. I think it is possible that there's 0-1 scum on some wagons. You may disagree with me. Theoretically it's possible and I'm not going to waste my time rooting through games for examples if you don't believe me. I am not arguing that it's more likely that there's NO scum on a 9 player wagon, but if you just look at one wagon or two wagons that doesn't mean a thing, you could be looking at an outlier. Or maybe some of the more reserved voters are scum, thus increasing the likelyhood of only one scum on a wagon. It's not enough, so I'm not going to treat it like the holy grail of scumfinding.

[MrBuddyLee]

@DGB and STD

, can you each please list your top four scummiest players out of the 12 remaining? Yos, VitR, OGML, chamber, Albert, Poro, Crayons, Spyrex, cam, Boo, MBL, (DGB/STD). Mine is probably DGB, Albert, STD, VitR, but to be honest no one really looks roses at this point. Been taking another look at everyone today, will try to post results Tuesday.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Vote OGML

I will not burden Patrick or any replacement with this slot that OGML burned to the ground.

[VitaminR]

This isn't a threat. It's a simple statement of fact. There are 4 scum left, and considering the number of confirmed townies and obvious townies, and the pairs of people who can't possibly be scum with each other (you and chamber, OGML and Albert, ect), I think there has to be exactally one scum in the group of (DGB, STD). I have trouble coming up with a scum group that doesn't include one of them. Do you disagree?

Yes. There's so many players left, including two useless hard-to-read lurker slots (SpyreX, OGML). Even if we exclude you and me and all of the pairs you list, how about MBL, or GC, or BooKitty, or Poro? Are you so certain of all of your reads? I can easily think of lots of four-player scum groups that fit your constraints. It seems totally fake to claim that one of DGB and StD

has

to be scum.

[VitaminR]

Not a fan of GC's willingness to go with two easy wagons (DGB and StD). Feels the most slippery out of the people voting for either today.

You're trying really quite hard to find me scummy.

With this new line, you're just ignoring my entire ISO and my stances w/r/t DGB and STD.

I'm not trying to do anything or coming up with any new line. I was just noting that you seem the most content to be on these wagons without doing any digging of your own, just sitting back and letting other people do the hard work.

[Green Crayons]

I've already done "digging of <my> own." I've stated in previous days, accompanying my previous votes for both STD and DGB, why I want both of them lynched.

Once again, ISO my posts you slughead.

The two minutes it takes to CTRL + F and then search for "DGB" and "STD" shows that your "suspicion" is total bunk, because what your complaint amounts to is: "GC, in every time stating that he wants DGB or STD lynched today, hasn't restated his already-stated justifications for wanting STD and DGB lynched."

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm not going to be excited to read your posts when half of them are unhelpful or demoralizing.

Hey how do you think I feel? I'm totes town and I've been wagoned 3 days in a row by a cheerleading confirmed mason!!!

[DrippingGoofball]

@DGB and STD, can you each please list your top four scummiest

I did that a few posts ago. Are you reading? Clearly stated and listed.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Good morning DrippingGoofball! Switch your vote to OGML, let's save some poor soul the trouble.