Mini 1592: Flying Aces (Game Over)

[Thor665]

/forsooth.

Mod confirmed single scum team is nice. No SK paranoid theories to be thrown at me after I lynch a few...just the paranoid 'Thor was bussing' ones

[Thor665]

Vote: Viking Cat

Mostly for figuring out my brilliant scumplay.
Also for not using this video yet;

http://www.public.asu.edu/~mharp/viking ... Kitten.htm

[Thor665]

Btw: We have a decent stash of gifs that we might post on occasion! A gif of that mentioned video was included.

Your attempt to retcon your scumminess is noted.

Probably an SK or something.

Are you even reading the game? We have mod confirmed no SK, so...?

[Thor665]

So it was just a really bad joke then? My apologies, I expected better of you.

Now, please vote somewhere useful, unless your theory is 'lol pressure' works on me...in which case I no longer will think better of you.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I know, you got busted so easily it hurts. Life is tough sometimes.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I know, you got busted so easily it hurts. Life is tough sometimes.

How strange. That's exactly what I was thinking.

About you!

[Thor665]

/forsooth.

Mod confirmed single scum team is nice. No SK paranoid theories to be thrown at me after I lynch a few...just the paranoid 'Thor was bussing' ones

this post makes me cringe and i don't know why!

You should try to work through it then - my guess is your issue is lack of awareness of playing with Thor - go read my wiki.

This is a serious vote and I expect the bearded one and the many sheeping legions to follow suit.

You didn't back my play, wimp boi, but I'm a bigger man so I'll back yours...though I'll admit it's mostly because you already stole my sheep.

Vote: Shiryu

[Thor665]

Yeah, but it's not like Shiryu's vote is actually scummy either, I'm basically backing you on a OMGUS vanity wagon. I'm fine with that, and fine with making him dead, let's just be honest about the relative strength of reads here - the cat is not more townish than Shiryu right now.

[Thor665]

Pointing out the pointlessness of your vote, like that it's over a joke, only serves to distance yourself from it if it goes to lynch. I don't like it, not even on page 2.

Have you used this tell as town in the past?

[Thor665]

Thing is - that's "how it was done" back then. I find it incredibly neutral myself.

[Thor665]

It just occurred to me you didn't comment on Pasch. You happy with Pasch's vote and commentary?

[Thor665]

Well, how is it done nowadays? You can feel free to go over my post history if you'd like... by my count, last game I played was about 7 years ago.

Nowadays most people are hipsters about it, they make it random but desperately try to avoid looking too jokey *or* in being willing to vote the same person someone else does. Basically it's the old way with a bit more snark and a bit less functionality.

I don't care when the last game you played was. I personally don't think it matters much. Metas change, but scumtells are scumtells and remain the same if they were ever valid in the first place.

Are you still happy with your random vote?

Have you used this tell as town in the past?

Not on a vote that I give a reason for. If a vote is random, I make it pretty clear, and that pretty much only happens in an opening post.

You appear to be answering "have you committed the tell you are accusing him of"
What I was asking was "have you used the tell you are citing (pointing out pointlessness of RVS vote) as a tell to call someone scummy and vote them in a game before"?

[Thor665]

I think it demonstrates his mindset. Even if it wasn't intentional this time, it shows where he's coming from.

I distinctly recall you doing this in the last game we played. The beginning of the game is always the most awkward, so for a "new" (ish) player jumping on their early posts probably isn't going to get you anywhere.

What was Pasch's alignment in that game?

[Thor665]

@Majiffy - depending on the answers from Pasch/Pants I'm going to run a blitz wagon on one of them. You better be prepared to join the fun.

[Thor665]

It did end up with what seems to be a chain of countervotes against me, so if that somehow gives us a read on the other players, then hey, I'll roll with it.

Did it give you any reads?

What was Pasch's alignment in that game?

Pasche was town

Cool.

Vote: Dr. Pants

[Thor665]

I'm also serious with that vote - in case anyone was wondering.

[Thor665]

is this because I called out Pasche for doing something he's done before as town, or is it because I haven't given any scum reads yet?

The former - you're functionally soft selling him as scum for something you've seen him do as town. That's scummy.

here's a quick summary of that game and why this is relevant btw:

in that game, Pasche opened by jumping on the initial couple of posts of a newer player. he proceeded to scum read people who challenged him on his read. In doing so, he had the entire town scum reading him and he would have likely been mislynch day 1 if one of the scum players didnt start dropping tells. Seeing him start this game by jumping on a player who can be considered somewhat of a new player then is more of worrying from a " please dont do this again Pasche kind of way, which is why I called him out on it

In terms of actual scum reads, the only thing that has caught my eye so far has been the flash wagon on Shiryu, which I happen to dislike. However, no player specifically stands out among the people who were on it atm.

thor get to the part where you make the pants wagon attractive

I feel like what you quoted should pretty much make the case for me. Let's just go this way "has anything that Pants said sounded like he wanted Pasch to think about what he was doing?"

Because Pants is now claiming that was his motivation.

He literally has no point with his vote at the moment. His strategy is to look like a town leader and jump on someone and run up a wagon. Then he will build a case and everyone else will sheep him.

Yup, my strategy is to look like a town leader by...doing what a town leader does.
Devilishly clever of me.

[Thor665]

VOTE: Paschendale

<3

I don't like Pasche's vote. Given that everything was already said about Shiryu, his justification seems unnecessary.

I see Pasch doing what I have seen town Pasch do - and it was bad because it got people to suspect him and vote him.
I better suspect him and vote him to get him to stop that.
I am town!

Who here buys this narrative?
Please sheep accordingly.

[Thor665]

Why did you keep voting him at that stage?

[Thor665]

If you thought he was town then...yeah, there was.

[Thor665]

a piece of matching meta does not make or break a case

plus, "unvote" is not scum. its mod confirmed. i think i remember a certain someone saying that before.....

Okay...let me walk you through it as I see it.

You have a pool of players, and in RVS they are all at some baseline (whether you start everyone as town or scum or null or whatever)
You vote Pasch.
Pasch does something you equate to a town Pasch and *also* that you equated to Pasch almost being mislynched which would be bad for town.
You try to 'help' him with this.
But you keep your vote on him - thus not showing any shift in your awareness of him being more likely town and *also* not showing any shift in wanting to avoid a mislynch on Pasch.
I call you a filthy scum and vote you.
And now we are here.

@Vikingcat - one of your heads sounds sexy and brilliant, the other is voting Marcell.

@Majiffy - you are actually discerning between over explanation and over theorizing as an explanation of what you are doing...that feels gakked up.

@Farside - neither of you came to any solid 'gotcha' moment with the other, nor did either of you attempt to pull in another body. That means it is likely the argument would not be commented on by most. My question to Majiffy here is the best 'gotcha' I saw in the entire thing, and I still consider it a lesser catch than the one on Pants. Would you be willing to vote Pants?

[Thor665]

@thor: I'm not sure about pants currently to vote.

We're, like, one RL day into the game. I wasn't thinking the buy in for votes should be particularly a high hurdle at this stage.

[Thor665]

I don't particularly care how you feel about it, Thor.

Well, you should, people's perception of you matters in this game regardless of your alignment.
So you honestly sat there and saw that as a differential issue enough to call one out and not the other?

[Thor665]

@thor: I'm not sure about pants currently to vote.

We're, like, one RL day into the game. I wasn't thinking the buy in for votes should be particularly a high hurdle at this stage.

you posed the drpants wagon as something really srs

It is really serious.
Do you not think it's serious?

[Thor665]

Yup, my strategy is to look like a town leader by...doing what a town leader does.
Devilishly clever of me.

Well that and voting random people and being frantic as everything, yes.

Voting "random" people...at game start. Yeah, how weird and unusual. And I'm "frantic"...wherein earlier you had described frantic as me being willling to vote multiple people.

You have accurately spotted that I'm pretty open to the possibility of lynching anyone in a game with no SK possible.
Congrats - you have made a town case on me and not realized it.

@thor: I'm stubborn and I don't really see a reason to switch votes. Marcell wagon looks good.

Is there a Marcell case or just a Marcell wagon?

I'll add Majiffy to the scum pile and CoolDog to the 'willing to lynch as a lark just so I don't have to keep explaining that pro-town play isn't scum play' pile.
I still think Pants is an optimal lynch at this stage.

[Thor665]

If I was scum, and attempting to mislynch Pasche, then why would I tell everyone that this bad behavior from Pasche was something I had seen from him as town?

You didn't until I specifically asked you about it - up until then my perception of what you were doing was pushing a lynch on him.

[Thor665]

He still feels confused about your motivations as far as I can tell from his posting.

[Thor665]

The above is in relation to Pants/Pasch...though it also works with CoolDog/Thor

[Thor665]

You're the one using it as a defense of yourself - I'm not using it as a scumtell.

[Thor665]

Why the early tunnel though? If you have a problem with me and think you can build an argument then that's one thing. But you've ignored entire other parts of the game so far just to focus on me, and my thoughts can be all over the place.

What part of the game do you think I have ignored?
Also, obviously I think I can get a wagon on you - that's what I'm doing.

What do you think of the Shiryu wagon? Or the fact that Majiffy is still seriously pushing it?

The Shiryu wagon is fine,a nd I find some of Majiffy's reasoning suspect (hence why I called him scum earlier) but he is not scum for pushing a wagon - pushing a wagon early is a town or null tell. It doesn't help scum particularly, and they only do it based on their own playstyle.

Do you have any actual response to CoolDog? Who do you want to see more posts from?

An "actual" response to CoolDog? I did respond to him - I pointed out that he has made a town case on me. Do you have an "actual" response to my response?
I would like to see more posts from everyone. I would like to see less posts from no one.

- DrPants tries to resolve this discrepancy by claiming that the object of his expressed dislike in 61 (Pasch's explanation of his vote) is different from the object of his expressed dislike in 63 (Pasch's push of a newby player).

Since my issue is the continued vote on a player considering his stated beliefs about the player - I suppose my response to this is 'yes...but...so what?'
You're addressing a case I haven't made.

Also, yes, with Post 61 and the vote and the continuation of the vote, Pants was pushing for a Pasch lynch. You can debate about how strongly he was pushing, but if your argument is that there is no push at all then I don't think you have the proper frame of reference to gauge what a push is.

[Thor665]

Going to disagree, mostly because he stickying to the point and being pretty blah about what's going on in the game. Low hanging fruit case from good players usually set my scum radar to full of Smurf.

There is a difference between a reason for a vote being bad and a reason for a wagon being bad.

The wagon is fine, but the reasoning of the wagon driver is suspect. Why is the wagon fine? Have you seen anything from Shiryu to suggest his wagon is anything other than him getting jumped for an awkward entry? I agree that pushing a wagon is not scummy, however as I've said Majiffy's reasoning is shallow enough that it looks to me like he is pushing Shiryu because he feels the need to push

someone

.

I would agree with you - Majiffy is pushing him because he feels th eneed to push

someone

...why is that remotely an issue.
I'll also agree that Shiryu git jumped...but I don't particularly see anything from Shiryu that makes me think he's town, so I'm perfectly fine with him being jumped.

Since my issue is the continued vote on a player considering his stated beliefs about the player - I suppose my response to this is 'yes...but...so what?'

Oh, well that's even Smurfier. DrPants shows naiveté about the presence and implications of his vote on Pasche a bit before you call him out for it.

Oh yeah? Where? I missed it.

[Thor665]

you agreed earlier that your vote happened "because [Pants] called out Pasche for doing something he's done before as town" so now I'm a bit confused as to what your plank is

Show me claiming a plank other than this and I'll clarify how you're reading it wrong.

[Thor665]

Its an issue because its disingenuous. If Majiffy has no strong reads he shouldn't pretend like he does. All he'll do is run up a BS on a player, which isn't a town action in any way. Even if nothing from Shiryu reads as town, the fact that he got jumped for essentially being newbish should be worrying.

Nah, that's called a pressure wagon. Those are fine.

post quoted in post before the one you quote here

...well, as far as I can tell hat would be this one;

Since my issue is the continued vote on a player considering his stated beliefs about the player

Wherein I'm still saying the same thing.

re: naivette

I see naivete about being unaware of how scummy what he just did looks - I do not see it as regards what he's trying to do with his vote.

@Pasch - what are you seeing scummy about Farside? I don't see anything particularly alignment telling there yet.

[Thor665]

Okay, now I don't like the wagon on Shiryu. Let's wagon Pants or Majiffy.

[Thor665]

[quote="In post 235, Majiffy"Lick my Smurf Thor. Lick it hard, and lick it long.[/quote]
You'd probably enjoy that too much for me to feel comfortable distracting you, you're already feeling pretty out of it this game. i remember back when you had amusing snark based around scumhunting - now you appear to think snark = scumhunting, and I don't think it's working out for you so well. I mean, even now, you finally got some info from your wagon on Shiryu, you got a town read...okay, good, i can agree with that.

But what are you doing now?

You're standing there basically hurling insults at the sky and...not getting your vote back in play.

You don't appear to be scumhunting, you appear to have been pushing a wagon and now are more focused on sort of shock and awe-ing people who have called you scummy while doing nothing else. That is pro-scum play, not pro-town. Feel free to make a scumhunting move now and place a vote. I won't even say 'told you so' when you do.

thor i guess we don't see eye to eye on pants
in a couple of days, i'll try to give the wagon a new look and maybe things'll work out

Uh...okay?
I'll choose to take that as a 'I didn't find you standing on any other planks' in the meantime, and as a 'not sure how to phrase this' for the odd defense on Pants as well.
Feel free to wade back in on either one when you will.

[Thor665]

Lick my Smurf Thor. Lick it hard, and lick it long.

You'd probably enjoy that too much for me to feel comfortable distracting you, you're already feeling pretty out of it this game. i remember back when you had amusing snark based around scumhunting - now you appear to think snark = scumhunting, and I don't think it's working out for you so well. I mean, even now, you finally got some info from your wagon on Shiryu, you got a town read...okay, good, i can agree with that.

But what are you doing now?

You're standing there basically hurling insults at the sky and...not getting your vote back in play.

You don't appear to be scumhunting, you appear to have been pushing a wagon and now are more focused on sort of shock and awe-ing people who have called you scummy while doing nothing else. That is pro-scum play, not pro-town. Feel free to make a scumhunting move now and place a vote. I won't even say 'told you so' when you do.

thor i guess we don't see eye to eye on pants
in a couple of days, i'll try to give the wagon a new look and maybe things'll work out

Uh...okay?
I'll choose to take that as a 'I didn't find you standing on any other planks' in the meantime, and as a 'not sure how to phrase this' for the odd defense on Pants as well.
Feel free to wade back in on either one when you will.

[Thor665]

I sort of agree with the sentiment that no one's acted particularly scummy. That is part of why I'm so passionate about the Baidu wagon. Please consider joining it, guys.

Why Baezu and not Messiah Complex?

[Thor665]

Thor take a look at your case on me. Is there anything I have yet to answer? Is there any part of my answer you dislike? If the answers to both are no, then you've conf-biased this and you should swallow your freaking pride and move on.

No, as far as I am aware you have addressed everything.
Yes, I did not like the way your answers and your actions lined up and found them scummy.
I am unsure where the confbias accusation springs out of. I have been quite clear that I didn't like your answers.

Scumhunting does not necessitate a vote, Thor. And a vote does not require scumhunting.

If someone's opening move is to be seen as townish then it must be seen as a pressure wagon - to then stop all pressure as one's next move makes one's actions seem...contradictory.
One might be thought of as scummy for the shift.

Can you show me a town game with you not using your vote on Day 1? That would ease my issues.

who's that

That would be the bigger lurker than Baezu, and if you're hunting lurkers I thought you might be on top of that.

Why suggest Messiah? He hasn't posted anything yet, other than his confirmation, and hasn't actually been online since then (give or take a few hours). Good form would be to give him the chance to post first, wouldn't it?

That is exactly why I suggested Messiah.

Pedit: Oh, and Thor is always right

VOTE: drpants

^my point on thor in a single post

Your point on me is that people will sheep me? What do you expect me to do about that, specifically?
Because, if anything, that sounds like a point about the sheepers, not about me.

Thor- I think we’ve played twice so far, from what I remember you are more observant than you seem in response to Jiffy. I hope for our sake that you just missed the boat on that one, and that you aren’t clutching at straws to find something scummy.

[snip]

_____________________________________ Lynchability line
Baezu
Anatole Kuragin
Majiffy

Vote Jiffy

[Thor665]

^I warning you. You keep talking about that shit your ass is going to get voted. But honestly, stupid french < Bazue.

Who cares?
If he makes a claim based off it *then* make an issue with him. Until then the worst he's doing is fluff useless posting. FOcus on what is happening, not what theoretically might happen.

[Thor665]

I'm not arguing meta - so, yeah, it's just as legit as something that isn't happening.

[Thor665]

@CoolDog - could you define what 'meta' means to you? Because by the conventional use of the term I am not using any meta in my case, so you clearly have a different take - what do you mean by meta?

I understand meta as 'using awareness of a player's past play examples as a means of assessing their present play in order to divine alignment'

If you agree with that definition then please show me how I'm doing it with Pants. If not, I'd like to see your definition.

[Thor665]

Special distinction for Pants, who I honestly think will end up being town just on gut feeling alone, but who's otherwise been looking pretty suspicious.

Can you show me a town game with you not using your vote on Day 1? That would ease my issues.

Not sure what you mean. Are you implying that everyone must be voting someone always or they arent using their vote? Because I heavily disagree.

Pretty much, yes, i am saying that.

Whether or not you disagree - can you show me a game where you did that as town? It's a simple enough question.

[Thor665]

Pick one. Im not going on a wild goose chase for your dumb read.

Pick one what?

I'm suggesting it's scummy you're doing what you're doing and am asking you if you have past meta to suggest you do this scummy thing as town. If so, I'd drop my issue - if not I intend to call you scum outright. Seems pretty open and shut, really.

Thor is usually more precise than this. Focused aggression is towny, unfocused aggression is not.

Still prefer Pants or Farside, though.

You're calling my aggression unfocused (and...how is that, exactly?)
You're backing a wagon I'm pushing.

Discuss.

[Thor665]

caught up for now, I'll be back tomorrow with questions

As part of my ongoing effort to get Pants lynched. I'd just like to note this.

He read stuff.
he's caught up.
He knows he has questions.
He has to wait till later to ask them?

I submit this is fake 'make work' looking posting.

[Thor665]

I kind of hate you all.

[Thor665]

Huzzah!

[Thor665]

There is nothing scummy in not having your vote constantly on someone. Nothing at all.

What I'm hearing is "I don't do this as town" in this answer.

Vote: Majiffy

[Thor665]

Links?

Majiffy kind of tossed this to me, and I'm not even sure what the point is - I'm being asked if I normally open up games aggressive?
Did I open up this game in that way?
Because as town i do what I do, and as scum I imitate it spot on to the point no one has (yet?) figured out a way to tell a difference.
So, yeah - this is how I open games. I can give you links if you want.
I'll also agree aggression is what I would expect from Majiffy town - it's why I'm calling hm scum for not being aggressive during the mid point.

Glorified prod dodge =/= scum post

Okay, welll...first off, yes, it does.

Second off, I called you out for your questions later comment.
In this post the only question you asked from a moment prior to my call out was one I *already* asked.

So, yeah, I know you're shoveling it with both hands.

[Thor665]

and I CAME BACK TODAY WITH QUESTIONS. Sorry if you think they're the wrong questions, they just happened to be the things I was thinking about at the time.

No they weren't - the time stamps on the posts prove that. You came up with those ones based on new posts, not stuff you read.
You lied about having questions.

[Thor665]

THOR. I SAID I WILL COME BACK WITH QUESTIONS. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I HAVE QUESTIONS, IT MEANS I WILL HAVE QUESTIONS.

When typing this, if you expected it to make me want to lynch you less, you were really misjudging my perception of what you're saying here.

[Thor665]

Perhaps not, but if you're sitting there thinking "wow! aren't I the master of scum hunting! I've seen through his clever ruse! I can't be anything but right, I'm Thor, god among Mafia players!", then you need to check your gawd Smurf ego

Also seeing a point from Thor now. I did expect questions from the content pants read, not the content he predicted to read.

Ding-ding-ding - we have a winner.

I am wondering if Thor is bussing? I mean it doesn't look like it but it's Thor.

You have literally just said you'd sheep me if I was town, and you are worried I might be bussing - that makes Pants scummy in both instances.

vote him then... oh wait you were voting him and your read didn't change but you voted someone else. A+++.

Oh, snap, you're right. I didn't realize it was scummy to have more than one scum read, I should have hidden that thought from town to look townish - how foolish of me.

[Thor665]

NOt to have multiple reads, but to have a read that you think is worth a lynch at this time and not vote him because you decided to vote a weaker read.

Oh, okay then - just point out where I called Majiffy a weaker read and I'll self vote. You got me - as long as you invent a stance and apply it to me.

Oh, snap, you're right. I didn't realize it was scummy to have more than one scum read, I should have hidden that thought from town to look townish - how foolish of me.

sooooo, do you plan on just telling me my questions are scummy due to timing or something, or do you plan on answering them?

I am planning to call your questions scummy - and since none of them were directed at me, no, I wasn't planning to answer any of them.

[Thor665]

Frankly, I saw no need to justify to you - you're blatant scum.

However, if you look at my conversation in context with majiffy you will see it go like this;

I support Majiffy riding herd on RVS, i think that's fine.
Huh, Majiffy stopped riding herd...and actually stopped voting altogether, that is weird and not the Majiffy I know.
Hey, Majiffy, have you, as town, done this before?
Majiffy is refusing to back this up and is being crotchety - I'm going to explain my stance to him again.
No, he is intentionally being obtuse, and I surmise it's because he knows I pegged him - Majiffy is scum.

It's pretty intense, because you need to have followed a conversation and a though process.
I may be being sarcastic in the last sentence above.

[Thor665]

Frankl;y a Explain. Your. Majiffy. Read. could have been sorted with a simple Thor+Majiffy iso.
I was openly describing to him multiple times what my issue with him was.

[Thor665]

Scumhunting does not necessitate a vote, Thor. And a vote does not require scumhunting.

If someone's opening move is to be seen as townish then it must be seen as a pressure wagon - to then stop all pressure as one's next move makes one's actions seem...contradictory.
One might be thought of as scummy for the shift.

Can you show me a town game with you not using your vote on Day 1? That would ease my issues.

I wonder what Thor's Majiffy case is - it is so scummy that Thor is not answering this question.

[Thor665]

Pick one. Im not going on a wild goose chase for your dumb read.

Pick one what?

I'm suggesting it's scummy you're doing what you're doing and am asking you if you have past meta to suggest you do this scummy thing as town. If so, I'd drop my issue - if not I intend to call you scum outright. Seems pretty open and shut, really.

Dr. pants has no idea what Thor's Majiffy case is.
Also, you should believe he is a player who *just claims to have re-read the game*
He is lying, fyi.

[Thor665]

Thor I feel like Majiffy is more likely to be anomalous as town in that respect.

I have never seen town Majiffy let up pressure without also becoming a lurksack.
Ever.

Have you?

[Thor665]

Point holds then.
It's a weird move, especially how violent he came out the chute (which I liked) but then paired with doldrum along with still being active...something is rotten in Denmark.

[Thor665]

If I claimed Day cop and had a breadcrumb link that would be 2 posts that would strongly dictate a read on me. Your numbers argument is meaningless and fake and is the sum total of what you're railing about there.

[Thor665]

No, he is intentionally being obtuse, and I surmise it's because he knows I pegged him - Majiffy is scum.

I'm pretty sure you've made a comment about being obstinate not being a scumtell in regards to me.

Are you scum, Thor?

No, I'm not scum.

There is also a difference between obtuse and stubborn - a fairly big one. I think you're being obtuse, not obstinate, that's why I said obtuse. You are being stubborn, but you're also attempting to play in a way to make you hard to read and approach, and I think that's your scum play.

Your counter argument is bad. I said these were not 2 of the most important posts in the game. If I had claimed Day cop then the obviously would have been.


At least I can actually scum hunt. All you are doing is taking posts and spinning narratives from them.

It's a personal attack and it's taking your opinion of the relative value of posts and saying my opinion of the relative value of them is wrong - this is a hollow argument. There is no meat on its bones.

You're also being fairly disingenuous in describing how I'm not giving other reads and then also being forced to admit I am but arguing that they are shallow enough that they don't count.

[Thor665]

The case on Majiffy.

That was really a hard question.

[/sarcasm]

[Thor665]

I find it fascinating that you don't understand that another way to describe "narrative spinning" is "offering opinion on seen actions" which is also called "scumhunting"

I also note you dropped the 'other stuff' storyline really quick there.
Good strategic move. It was a fight you'd lose.

[Thor665]

Answer me this: When you first started voting me, what we're you looking for that would have suggested that I was town?

If you had said he was scum in the game history you had with him.

Also, cute, stuff I add doesn't count because...it doesn't fit into your narrative. Scum-scum-scum.

[Thor665]

Actually, it occurs to me that Pants is complaining on one hand that no answer he could have given would have made him look town - ergo I am scum.
At the same time he is claiming I have added nothing to the game...as long as he gets to rule out everything I added to the game.

I can't believe him nor Majiffy has been to L-1 yet. This is obvious stuff.
I'm about to start getting very rude with people unless they at least start saying they expect town to just blatantly act like scum all the time.

[Thor665]

To clarify the above - he is doing exactly what he is accussing me of doing - that means he is fulfilling his own concept of what scum play is.
Hint: there's a reason he considers it scum play.

[Thor665]

So, by the time you started voting me, there was nothing I could have said that would have made you change your mind.

If you want to presume I had already done the research and knew what your answer was - then, yeah, sure.

Then again, by the time you're voting someone for something you've seen them do as town - you kinda deserve a vote.

[Thor665]

The derp is strong with this one.

[Thor665]

You are, sadly, quite alive and in my universe.

[Thor665]

...or, y'know, maybe you're just wrong in claiming my case has no merit? Like, even if you think I'm scum, how many of the people agreeing my case has a point have to be my scumbuddies? All of them? I'm going to get a huge scum team very quickly.

[Thor665]

I would not mistake CoolDog's expressed opinion as a majority opinion...or even a minority opinion. It appears to be a solo one unless you also count Pants.

[Thor665]

Thor: I saw mention of jiffy and pants scum read did I miss anyone else as a scum read from you?

I have a vast number of people I wouldn't care if they were lynched. But those are, by a substantial margin, my scum reads.
I see the cases on Messiah, Marcell, and Baezu - I'm not going to argue against any of them, and would be content to vote any to avoid a no lynch, but I would much prefer a Majiffy or Pants lynch. I'd honestly even be willing to lynch CoolDog, though I actually wager he'd flip town, I just think it would still benefit the town in a theoretical sense

Also if you read the ISO from Marcell would some point to where Marcell agreed with thor or said anything about thor or the case before this?
here it is

He did mention me once before because I remember him basically agreeing with me about the question thing from Pants - but that's all I remember. Though I will admit when people town read me I usually forget about it unless I'm actually being wagoned.

[Thor665]

With regards to Thor, I plan on ignoring his existence for the rest of the game, or until it actually becomes relevant

I'm going to offer - I have not insulted you yet this game. You have insulted me. I have called you scum. Apparently your reaction to that horribleness on my part is to ignore me.
You are blatant scum.

has this ever happened
has anyone ever sheeped anyone because they flipped town???

I dont care whether anyone has ever done it, im telling you to do it.

I am albert ball, vt.
VOTE: majiffy

You retards deserve the town loss you're charging towards.

If you're town, you have no right to call anyone's play into question this game. Self-votes are the haven of scum and the weak - which are you claiming? Because your play this game has been wacky non-town Majiffy from the get go.

I'm quite happy with my vote where it is.

[Thor665]

@Majiffy - Besides Messiah, who I'm not going to lynch today, what are your other sheepable reads?

Edit: If you flip town...well, I'd also like to see who, if anyone, dies overnight. In a world where no one dies at night and you flip town? I won't be lynching Messiah, nor Farside. I
d probably still be fine with flipping Pants. Maybe Baezu or Why Not as alternate options. I'd also love to have a wagon to analyze on you that didn't have your derp head useless town self-vote, so would spend some time commenting about what a fail you are.

If you flip scum I mostly laugh and do a jig.

That's my plan.

[Thor665]

If that's your sheepable list than I hate you a thousand times over for not backing me on Pants days ago.
I could see Anatole.
I don't see Farside.

[Thor665]

You're still self-voting, so I'm accepting that as a scum claim.

[Thor665]

I think you are well aware that a seasoned player is a lot more likely to do anomalous stuff as town than they are as scum.

And I think I have explained my reasoning for why, from this player and this stuff, it is a valid scum case. If any anomaly is 'well, lulz, vet player' then...

[Thor665]

I mean;

He did a hard push out the gate...but then sat around for days with no vote in play.
He scum read Pants, but couldn't be arsed at any point in the game to vote him - and if you look at how he is talking to Pants, and how Pants is talking to him (versus Pant's stance on me, who has also scumread him) you can spot an easy difference.
He advocated a lynch of a Doc Day 1.
He self voted.

One of those...okay, maybe Majiffy is being weird. Two...I kind of feel that's a case. Four? C'mon now. What's the town case here?

[Thor665]

You've explained but I'm not buying what you're selling.

Well, lucky you, I have a new sale happening, come one, come all.

[Thor665]

I'll also add - dodged my request about providing town examples. Which I take as a tacit admission that he has never done #1 before as town.

[Thor665]

You're not even being proactive here. "Oh, well...vet players are...wacky..."
Yeah, brilliant defense.

If you want to defend him present a town case.
Or, present a valid alternate wagon - heck, if you and Majiffy hoped on Pants I'd probably head over there as well.

But you're making empty motions right now - you're not even functionally opposing the wagon, you're just making noise.

[Thor665]

I mean, straight up - do you town read Majiffy, and is this a defense attempt?

[Thor665]

Thank you for that brilliantly oversimplified misrep.

Feel free to point out the misrep specifically.

Why'd you say the town read on Majiffy was gut, as opposed to just saying it was a town read?

[Thor665]

Players as town are pretty much by nature more anomalous than as scum, particularly more experienced players. Lack of self-censorship, less concern about appearing town and more concerned about figuring Smurf out, etc. What I'm saying does not boil down to wacky town vet players.

Eh, not really - especially when not having a vote in play and sitting around doing nothing is the opposite of 'figuring Smurf out'
Like, seriously, how is threatening a self-vote and not voting or doing anything after an aggressive seeming start in line with your theory here? What am I missing?

@Pasch - please justify that Majiffy townread you're soft selling while not actually engaging anyone. Is he actually town and you're scum hoping for points after a mislynch? If so you should probably work harder for it.

[Thor665]

I'm amazed you've played with me as often as you have and just noticed this habit.

[Thor665]

Pants is scummy - so that actually seemed in line with what I expected.

[Thor665]

A self-hammer I could see for strategic reasons, but L-1?

I've done it as scum - to generate exactly the sort of defense you're doing.
You've only ever seen town self vote? Or is it you've only ever seen town self-vote to put themselves at L-1?

[Thor665]

good job guys.... I guess this is an example of the town not Smurfing it up... and a sweet Smurf vig shot.

The Vig shot definitely redefined the layout of the game.

[Thor665]

I will say I disagree with thoughts expressed in the QT about the relative balance of the setup. Outside of the way the propagandists were handled (and the vague idea that Vigs are a balancing effect to weaken town...? Though I don't think that was an actual issue.) I thought the game was pretty well constructed.

The propagandists probably should have been given explicit info about the bonus fluff that would appear around their posts. It didn't end up mattering, but it easily could have,

[Thor665]

Not with the mod attached flavor of 'dropping from a German plane' methinks.
Or, if it did work - it would be blatantly town's fault for buying it.

[Thor665]

Also that does overlook that there was an Allied Propagandist - whose death should have clued people in, or who, by being alive, should have had a pretty good idea himself.

[Thor665]

@Desp - Cooldog was confirmed as a Vig, as Vigs will.
Why Not was a cop who claimed with a result - that will also happen.
Pants was cleared simply because I died - that is not fair to blame on the setup as if I had played different or the Vig had shot elsewhere it would have been a different outcome.

I will agree with you that game designers have weird theories in their head about the power of Daychat that I have seen be justified in only about 1% of any given game with Daychat I have ever seen.

That said, a 1-shot Vig and a Cop versus a Rolecop and Roleblocker doesn't feel like bad game design to me.

@Pants - I agree with Desp, that is silly talk.

[Thor665]

I will agree the Mod probably shouldn't have confirmed the sides like he did in an otherwise closed setup, but with a claim of 1-shot Vig anyway, it's not like there would have been much SK suspicion in any case.

[Thor665]

I think the "incorrect" mod information read was actually the mod trying to cover his backside, personally

Pants was going to be town read after the interactions between him and I Day 1 post a Thor scum flip pretty much no matter what. All that did was make people more trusting of the Baez result, but, frankly, with a Thor scum flip the Cop made the right choice of who to send the info to regardless.

PEdit - you are saying with a regular cop, the game would have felt balanced to you?

[Thor665]

I hear you talking, but it sounds like the same line as people who argue about how powerful Daytalk is for scum (which, literally only matters in larges or for quickhammers as far as I can tell).
Okay, so there are 'interactions' to assess...there is also some added paranoia about buying results which *also* gives scum leeway.

PEdit - eh, he was an investigative. He was as confirmed as any investigative. Hell, if I hadn't been dead we potentially could have argued him as a Mafia Propagandist or something.

[Thor665]

I mean, look how far you got with a protective claim with no counter.
People buy those based off their regularity.
It is continued survival and results that solidifies the claim.

[Thor665]

No, but, as stated, that was because of my flip and the relationals with Pants - not due to anything else.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, scum had nuts in a vise by Day 2 Daystart - but I think it was a confluence of happy coincidence more than poor game design.

[Thor665]

Hell, also note that, like, literally all of the PRs were the easy mislynch town pretty much across the board?
It's hard to fight that.

[Thor665]

Assessing people's stated reads - that would have been an unwise investigation.