Mini 1592: Flying Aces (Game Over)

[farside22]

Pasch: do you have a read on Marcell?

[Paschendale]

Pasch: do you have a read on Marcell?

He's lurky, but for a busy game that's only a few days old, I'm very reluctant to vote people for what they aren't doing, rather than what they are.

[farside22]

The last several pages have read like pure bickering...

Cooldog is towning it up, though. He's trying to cut through the bullshit, and props to him for doing it. And Baezu is working her way onto the scumpile. So is Thor. I can't usually tell his town bluster from his scum bluster, but it seems to have less purpose. I expect Jiffy to just poke things with sharp sticks. Thor is usually more precise than this. Focused aggression is towny, unfocused aggression is not.

Still prefer Pants or Farside, though.

Peedit: And some real content from Viking Cat. I'd prefer that, too.

Can you explain why baezu is leaning scum then?

From what I see people didn't like her lack of comments.

[Thor665]

and I CAME BACK TODAY WITH QUESTIONS. Sorry if you think they're the wrong questions, they just happened to be the things I was thinking about at the time.

No they weren't - the time stamps on the posts prove that. You came up with those ones based on new posts, not stuff you read.
You lied about having questions.

[Dr Pants]

THOR. I SAID I WILL COME BACK WITH QUESTIONS. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I HAVE QUESTIONS, IT MEANS I WILL HAVE QUESTIONS.

good lord. this isn't even scum hunting! you are pulling a "lynch all liars" with the exception that I wasn't fucking lying.

[Thor665]

THOR. I SAID I WILL COME BACK WITH QUESTIONS. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I HAVE QUESTIONS, IT MEANS I WILL HAVE QUESTIONS.

When typing this, if you expected it to make me want to lynch you less, you were really misjudging my perception of what you're saying here.

[Dr Pants]

Perhaps not, but if you're sitting there thinking "wow! aren't I the master of scum hunting! I've seen through his clever ruse! I can't be anything but right, I'm Thor, god among Mafia players!", then you need to check your god damn ego

[Dr Pants]

inb4 Thor spams faces

[Marcrell]

Could everyone please lay out their current reads? I think too many people are getting caught up in minutia. Jiffy, top 3 scum. Farside - same. If we all agree that marcrell is super scum, great.

But there's got to be other people that are being scummy for non-fabricated reasons.

Who are those people? I'm still not convinced dr pants is town soy reads list is still accurate up until this point

The bolded portion sounds strange to me. It implies that the people who are scum in this posts have fabricated reasons, implying that the reads are made up. I was unsure, but looking over this post has me leaning a bit more towards Baezu scum. I won't vote though until I see an explanation. Perhaps there's something explaining this.
And I have returned. I tried to use something more recent, but a lot of it was back and forth between people that I found hard to take an opinion on, so I have given this.
Also seeing a point from Thor now. I did expect questions from the content pants read, not the content he predicted to read.

[Majiffy]

Yeah, but you won't find people who think it is unilaterally useless. Meaning in every single possible scenario I think meta is useless. Find someone else who will be willing to defend that. But this doesn't matter.

There's a difference between having an opinion and being wrong.

In this case, you're the latter. I've already explained why.

uhh your wrong. You have basically an infinite amount of time to make a post.

Explain to me how time means anything when we're dealing with subconscious personality tells.

Why not? I do that. Everyone does that. Everyone wants to look town.

"Everyone" does not throw their town games to have stronger scum games. This is just a pure falsity.

^yes, exactly. If you are scummy as town you get your ass lynched. Conform to the overall site meta or else. This is best for the town, and thus best for mafia as a whole due to the fact that most games you will play are as town.

That's... still not how it works.

But we actually do this! We teach players to scum hunt and make reads and not to do certain things.

And yet we still have the problems we're discussing

right now.

Which further proves my point that expecting people to become less scummy by just lynching them constantly is not going to solve the problem.

Misunderstands scum tells with a standard to judge scumminess.

Elaborate, then. What is an "objective standard to judge scumminess" if not a roundabout way of claiming objective scumtells?

It is meaningless in regards to the fact that I do not think that their arguments are valid. I think it is scummy to make filler posts. My "usless" comment is referring to the content of the post NOT if the player is scum or not.

Do only scum players make invalid arguments, or filler posts?

Scum motivation -> Scum posting -> Scummy posts. If you're claiming a post is scummy, you're positing scum motivation.

[Paschendale]

Can you explain why baezu is leaning scum then?

From what I see people didn't like her lack of comments.

Her reads look strategic rather than natural. Her points look measured and careful. Her arguments don't look genuine.

[Dr Pants]

Get to the part where you explain your scum read on me, as I have asked you to do for the entire freaking game

for fucks sake do you plan on never answering this

[viking cat]

I think ffery kind of needs a rest, so I might post more. My current scumreads:

#1: Thor
Reasons:
1. His confirmation post. I don't think Town Thor would have even contemplated living longer than one day, because if you're a good player you're anticipating a Nightkill in the first night.
2. His vote switch from Pants to Jiffy. Looked like jumping from a case he was really convinced about to a more lighthearted looking vote on Jiffyjaffy. Also: This happened right after Jiffjaff townread Thor. Not sure if it's a coincidence, but it's definitely a convenient attack angle.

#2: Pants
Reasons:
1. Lying scum contradicting himself making a whackjob of a defense and everything. If I believed Thor was Town I'd totally sheep that.
I am wondering if Thor is bussing? I mean it doesn't look like it but it's Thor.

#3: Marcrell
Reasons:
1. Well bler. He has like 4 posts or something, just look at them I guess. Reasons have been delivered by Anatole and later farside.

#4: Messiah Complex
Reasons:
1. As Majiffy said, his vote is slightly disconnected from his reads list, which suggests he just randomly assembled some stuff and then put his vote... somewhere. I don't really trust Majiffy but I guess it's a half way decent point.
2. He put in a lot of content and then he just discusses minor details about all kind of stuff that will probably be forgotten in a few days anyway, why bother? I don't want to call it spam but functionally it probably comes down to it. I noticed in particular his remark about coaching in #360, which has no point at all really.

Jiffy isn't in this list because fferys gut townreads him. I also have some townreads.

[Belisarius]

Yeeeah, I'm not getting anywhere near a pagetop with this one, am I?

Vote Count 04/10/1917.09

Dr Pants: (2) Baezu, Why not
Baezu: (2) CooLDoG, Paschendale
Marcrell: (3) Anatole Kuragin, viking cat, farside22
Messiah Complex: (2) Majiffy, Shiryu
Majiffy: (3) Dr Pants, Messiah Complex, Thor665

Not Voting: Marcrell

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-08-06 12:45:00)

Mod Notes:
Congratulations to CoolDoG on being one year closer to death!

[CooLDoG]

Still looking for someone to explain any town reads I majiffy currently.
He 's tunneled one player, voted another with no comment and continues to coast through this game with shit reads.
I expect shit reads from baezu not Jiffy

Interesting... this also describes thor.

Majiffy, what is the point of all this complaining and arguing? Yes, we get it. There's a disagreement about meta. But who do you think is scum and why?

also this is true. I don't get why he went into a theory argument with me without the intention of finding scum/town motivation in my posts.

Majiffy, what is your stance on CoolDog given 386? All I can tell is that you apparently took a wall post to say: "meta is sometimes good but sometimes not good"

NO. Meta is never good. Ever. In any case. At any time.

Majiffy, what is your stance on CoolDog given 386? All I can tell is that you apparently took a wall post to say: "meta is sometimes good but sometimes not good"

386 has nothing to do with my read on Cooldog. He needed someone to kick him off the pedestal he's sitting on.

^Then create a mafia discussion thread post game. If it has nothing to do with town or scum then your post is useless for the town. You are trying to find something to make you look active when in fact you are doing nothing towards catching scum.

Jiffy is looking worse and worse with each post.

Could everyone please lay out their current reads?

You, thor, Marcell and jiffy. As scum. In that order. I don't do town reads d1.

Man, there really has been a lot of pointless bickering and arguing in this game. Which sucks since it makes it more of a pain to read through it and isn't really giving us any useful information.

TRUTH.

THOR. I SAID I WILL COME BACK WITH QUESTIONS. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I HAVE QUESTIONS, IT MEANS I WILL HAVE QUESTIONS.

When typing this, if you expected it to make me want to lynch you less, you were really misjudging my perception of what you're saying here.

vote him then... oh wait you were voting him and your read didn't change but you voted someone else. A+++.

Could everyone please lay out their current reads? I think too many people are getting caught up in minutia. Jiffy, top 3 scum. Farside - same. If we all agree that marcrell is super scum, great.

But there's got to be other people that are being scummy for non-fabricated reasons.

Who are those people? I'm still not convinced dr pants is town soy reads list is still accurate up until this point

The bolded portion sounds strange to me. It implies that the people who are scum in this posts have fabricated reasons, implying that the reads are made up. I was unsure, but looking over this post has me leaning a bit more towards Baezu scum. I won't vote though until I see an explanation. Perhaps there's something explaining this.
And I have returned. I tried to use something more recent, but a lot of it was back and forth between people that I found hard to take an opinion on, so I have given this.
Also seeing a point from Thor now. I did expect questions from the content pants read, not the content he predicted to read.

^this weak ass post makes me think this is scum trying to hop onto a wagon without looking that bad.

Spoiler:

Yeah, but you won't find people who think it is unilaterally useless. Meaning in every single possible scenario I think meta is useless. Find someone else who will be willing to defend that. But this doesn't matter.

There's a difference between having an opinion and being wrong.

In this case, you're the latter. I've already explained why.

uhh your wrong. You have basically an infinite amount of time to make a post.

Explain to me how time means anything when we're dealing with subconscious personality tells.

Why not? I do that. Everyone does that. Everyone wants to look town.

"Everyone" does not throw their town games to have stronger scum games. This is just a pure falsity.

^yes, exactly. If you are scummy as town you get your ass lynched. Conform to the overall site meta or else. This is best for the town, and thus best for mafia as a whole due to the fact that most games you will play are as town.

That's... still not how it works.

But we actually do this! We teach players to scum hunt and make reads and not to do certain things.

And yet we still have the problems we're discussing

right now.

Which further proves my point that expecting people to become less scummy by just lynching them constantly is not going to solve the problem.

Misunderstands scum tells with a standard to judge scumminess.

Elaborate, then. What is an "objective standard to judge scumminess" if not a roundabout way of claiming objective scumtells?

It is meaningless in regards to the fact that I do not think that their arguments are valid. I think it is scummy to make filler posts. My "usless" comment is referring to the content of the post NOT if the player is scum or not.

Do only scum players make invalid arguments, or filler posts?

Scum motivation -> Scum posting -> Scummy posts. If you're claiming a post is scummy, you're positing scum motivation.

My response: Fuck you. You are wrong. I am right. Get the Fuck out.
*clarification* I did not read this post, nor will I ever read it... ever.

Congratulations to CoolDoG on being one year closer to death!

[/area]

Yar! Thank you!

Also, let it be noted that I woke up early on my birthday for you assholes so I could get caught up!

[Thor665]

Perhaps not, but if you're sitting there thinking "wow! aren't I the master of scum hunting! I've seen through his clever ruse! I can't be anything but right, I'm Thor, god among Mafia players!", then you need to check your gawd Smurf ego

Also seeing a point from Thor now. I did expect questions from the content pants read, not the content he predicted to read.

Ding-ding-ding - we have a winner.

I am wondering if Thor is bussing? I mean it doesn't look like it but it's Thor.

You have literally just said you'd sheep me if I was town, and you are worried I might be bussing - that makes Pants scummy in both instances.

vote him then... oh wait you were voting him and your read didn't change but you voted someone else. A+++.

Oh, snap, you're right. I didn't realize it was scummy to have more than one scum read, I should have hidden that thought from town to look townish - how foolish of me.

[farside22]

Cooldog: I noted your comment. I will look at thor tomorrow.

[farside22]

By the way RL tomorrow.
I've had a shit morning.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Could everyone please lay out their current reads? I think too many people are getting caught up in minutia. Jiffy, top 3 scum. Farside - same. If we all agree that marcrell is super scum, great.

But there's got to be other people that are being scummy for non-fabricated reasons.

Who are those people? I'm still not convinced dr pants is town soy reads list is still accurate up until this point

The bolded portion sounds strange to me. It implies that the people who are scum in this posts have fabricated reasons, implying that the reads are made up. I was unsure, but looking over this post has me leaning a bit more towards Baezu scum. I won't vote though until I see an explanation. Perhaps there's something explaining this.
And I have returned. I tried to use something more recent, but a lot of it was back and forth between people that I found hard to take an opinion on, so I have given this.
Also seeing a point from Thor now. I did expect questions from the content pants read, not the content he predicted to read.

why have we not lynched this guy yet?

[farside22]

Could everyone please lay out their current reads? I think too many people are getting caught up in minutia. Jiffy, top 3 scum. Farside - same. If we all agree that marcrell is super scum, great.

But there's got to be other people that are being scummy for non-fabricated reasons.

Who are those people? I'm still not convinced dr pants is town soy reads list is still accurate up until this point

The bolded portion sounds strange to me. It implies that the people who are scum in this posts have fabricated reasons, implying that the reads are made up. I was unsure, but looking over this post has me leaning a bit more towards Baezu scum. I won't vote though until I see an explanation. Perhaps there's something explaining this.
And I have returned. I tried to use something more recent, but a lot of it was back and forth between people that I found hard to take an opinion on, so I have given this.
Also seeing a point from Thor now. I did expect questions from the content pants read, not the content he predicted to read.

why have we not lynched this guy yet?

Idk, but I need a reread of this game.
I just need 24 hours.

[Messiah Complex]

Catching up tonight/tomorrow. Been busy planning my daughters 1st birthday party, Jesus these things are complicated.

[CooLDoG]

vote him then... oh wait you were voting him and your read didn't change but you voted someone else. A+++.

Oh, snap, you're right. I didn't realize it was scummy to have more than one scum read, I should have hidden that thought from town to look townish - how foolish of me.

NOt to have multiple reads, but to have a read that you think is worth a lynch at this time and not vote him because you decided to vote a weaker read.

[Majiffy]

why have we not lynched this guy yet?

Because thats not a scumpost.

[Anatole Kuragin]

why have we not lynched this guy yet?

Because thats not a scumpost.

That remains to be seen, dear majiffy. He cherry picked one post after ignoring almost every piece of content this game and it just happens to be a (non-commital) post against Baezu. This makes sense from a scum perspective because she's the only other suspicious player besides Messiah who has a decent chance of being lynched. This does make me suspect Baezu slightly less, but it makes sense if it's starting to look like one of the team is going to die anyways, they should go at eachother for distancing/town cred on the next day.

He basically says he has no opinions even though this is a strangely easy game to have opinions on pretty much everybody because there are so many strong personalities. And this is after two posts where he back-to-back says he

ALMOST

wants to lynch me, and

ALMOST

wants to lynch viking cat.

I'm not sure because the statement is kinda weird, but it also looks like Marcrell is FoSing Pants? who is much less scummy than half the people in this game, but again, has some votes on him so there's some possibility of a lynch.

Marcrell is either scum or the least decisive/committed person

in the known universe

.

Not sure if I'd rather lynch Marcrell or Messiah. I think if either one is scum it increases the chances of the other being mafia as well. Baezu's my number 3 currently.

[Dr Pants]

Oh, snap, you're right. I didn't realize it was scummy to have more than one scum read, I should have hidden that thought from town to look townish - how foolish of me.

sooooo, do you plan on just telling me my questions are scummy due to timing or something, or do you plan on answering them?

Thor, if you were so adamant on pushing a wagon on me, why did you abandon it so easily? Additionally, of all of the things Majiffy has said/done in this game, the thing that caught your eye was this?

There is nothing scummy in not having your vote constantly on someone. Nothing at all.

The fuck kind of scum statement is that?

Your Majiffy vote is bad. There are great reasons to vote Majiffy, bad wagons, non-game-related wall posts, etc. Instead you think he's scum for exactly no good reason.