Mini 1592: Flying Aces (Game Over)

[Majiffy]

And yes a townie player doing it does rebuke. Because it means someone not scum did it null

How many things can you say only scum has done? Please provide examples.
Your position nullifies every possible argument to playing this game except for relying entirely on power roles to win games for town. You cannot scumhunt with this position.

Oh look it's called a question jiffy. To see what the player says instead of weak tells.

What response would be indicative of town? I bet I could find scum making a similar response! Uh oh, must be a null question! Better not ask it.

[Majiffy]

Majiffy, what is the point of all this complaining and arguing? Yes, we get it. There's a disagreement about meta. But who do you think is scum and why?

Messiah is my primary target. They've displayed cogdis in regards to their "scumread" on me, have not provided any reasons to consider me their strongest scumread, and yet here they are, called out and still pushing.

[Majiffy]

But if you read my posts you'd probably already know that. Since it's all in them.

[Majiffy]

Farside please explain to me what my problem was with Shir's post-in-question, and then explain to me why the townie-in-question in your example made a post in a similar/same situation with similar/same motivations. Because I don't think you understand my argument at all.

[Dr Pants]

after Pasche's 63

as I said above, it was that particular post that made this scenario match the previous game. Its because Pasche admittedly took the vote 100% seriously and believes himself to be correct.

my vote's still on Pasche because I don't have a better place for it right now. Like I said to Thor, this meta thing is not enough to constitute a strong read, its only a piece of evidence. I mentioned it because it seemed relevant, and I keep mentioning it because Thor's case against me is built upon it.

I don't know if I really believe this answer anymore.

Any reason why?

caught up for now, I'll be back tomorrow with questions

I submit this is fake 'make work' looking posting.

Glorified prod dodge =/= scum post

Pasche, I still would like to know why you have a scum read on me, especially given that:

Pants was establishing how I'm often lynchbait on day 1

you dont seem to have a problem with this, and

Thor is usually more precise than this. Focused aggression is towny, unfocused aggression is not.

you think the person driving the wagon is scummy. Explain please.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Majiffy, what is your stance on CoolDog given 386? All I can tell is that you apparently took a wall post to say: "meta is sometimes good but sometimes not good"

Thor, if you were so adamant on pushing a wagon on me, why did you abandon it so easily? Additionally, of all of the things Majiffy has said/done in this game, the thing that caught your eye was this?

There is nothing scummy in not having your vote constantly on someone. Nothing at all.

The fuck kind of scum statement is that?

[Shiryu]

And now to continue re-reading the thread.

Hey shir: when starting a game of mafia what was the norm for rvs?

So I realize you're probably just using the question to prove your point to Jiffy, but hey I'll bite. From what I recall, people usually would start of with some silly/witty banter as a way to ease into the game and break the ice, and make up whatever reason to place a vote. The vote itself would of course be completely random if the player was town, and might as well be random if they were scum since they could just as easiy vote for a town or another scum player. Eventually either a wagon would be started or someone would take a vote seriously (even if they knew it wasn't) to get a proper discussion going. So yeah, I do recall the rvs stage being very tongue-in-cheek.

[farside22]

And now to continue re-reading the thread.

Hey shir: when starting a game of mafia what was the norm for rvs?

So I realize you're probably just using the question to prove your point to Jiffy, but hey I'll bite. From what I recall, people usually would start of with some silly/witty banter as a way to ease into the game and break the ice, and make up whatever reason to place a vote. The vote itself would of course be completely random if the player was town, and might as well be random if they were scum since they could just as easiy vote for a town or another scum player. Eventually either a wagon would be started or someone would take a vote seriously (even if they knew it wasn't) to get a proper discussion going. So yeah, I do recall the rvs stage being very tongue-in-cheek.

Well jiffy was asking for null reasoning and apparently one post isn't enough so asking the player in question what was norm should be part of it.

He's in a scum doing bad reasoning tunnel.
Weak theory, weak reason and u bet even after this he would still say he was justified to tunnel on that shit.

[Majiffy]

Majiffy, what is your stance on CoolDog given 386? All I can tell is that you apparently took a wall post to say: "meta is sometimes good but sometimes not good"

386 has nothing to do with my read on Cooldog. He needed someone to kick him off the pedestal he's sitting on.

My read on CD has been posted recently.

[Majiffy]

[Majiffy]'s in a scum doing bad reasoning tunnel.
Weak theory, weak reason and u bet even after this he would still say he was justified to tunnel on that shit.

Irony.

You're dodging my questions. Go answer my questions.

[farside22]

[Majiffy]'s in a scum doing bad reasoning tunnel.
Weak theory, weak reason and u bet even after this he would still say he was justified to tunnel on that shit.

Irony.

You're dodging my questions. Go answer my questions.

Why? You want to go round and round something you've already backed away from and declared shir town. What is your point?you don't want to meta research shit when asked. You expect examples with research if why something is null. Please let me know when your standards you call for should not include proof from you.

[farside22]

And yes a townie player doing it does rebuke. Because it means someone not scum did it null

How many things can you say only scum has done? Please provide examples.
Your position nullifies every possible argument to playing this game except for relying entirely on power roles to win games for town. You cannot scumhunt with this position.

Oh look it's called a question jiffy. To see what the player says instead of weak tells.

What response would be indicative of town? I bet I could find scum making a similar response! Uh oh, must be a null question! Better not ask it.

You can research if the player is lying with shir as an example. Go look how many games he played, bet it takes 20 minutes to see what rvs was like, oh wait I did that before I asked which was why it was null.

[Majiffy]

I never requested research I asked for arguments. From you.

Explaining

why what I read as scum is null.

You instead offer two newbies independently taking two actions as an explanation that neither explains nor shows any understanding on your part of my argument.

Yet you continue to press me on things you readily admit I have dropped and wont even answer my incredibly simple questions.

Im trying to discern

your

alignment. And youre not making me feel good about it.

[Majiffy]

You dont even grok my argument how can you posit having refuted it?

[farside22]

I never requested research I asked for arguments. From you.

Explaining

why what I read as scum is null.

You instead offer two newbies independently taking two actions as an explanation that neither explains nor shows any understanding on your part of my argument.

Yet you continue to press me on things you readily admit I have dropped and wont even answer my incredibly simple questions.

Im trying to discern

your

alignment. And youre not making me feel good about it.

All I see you asking is about the same thing. Admittedly I have ADD, so what specific question that has nothing to do with the rvs vote did I miss?

[Baezu]

Could everyone please lay out their current reads? I think too many people are getting caught up in minutia. Jiffy, top 3 scum. Farside - same. If we all agree that marcrell is super scum, great. But there's got to be other people that are being scummy for non-fabricated reasons. Who are those people? I'm still not convinced dr pants is town soy reads list is still accurate up until this point

[Shiryu]

Man, there really has been a lot of pointless bickering and arguing in this game. Which sucks since it makes it more of a pain to read through it and isn't really giving us any useful information.

Ok, so having re-read the whole thing, I think I have a better grasp on it. I know I'm late to the party on this one, but I'm now definitely considering Pants to be scum with the arguments he gave at the start of the game while still keeping his original vote on Pash.

Marcrell is also right up there on my scum radar. Ultimately I'd say he was still the worst on the me wagon, and I don't think his response to it was all that solid. And of course now I would add the overall lack of presence in the game. At least Messiah's throwing in some pretty detailed posts when he reports in.

That being said, I'm confortable with my vote on Messiah, for the reasons I've already stated.

Also considering Baezu as possible scum candidate. Why Not was right, 201 is just shifty looking, and despite her lates posts, is just something that really jumped out at me while going over the game again.

At this point I'm no longer really feeling anyone town. (whereas previously I was fairly confident Majiffy and Pash would have been). As I mentioned in 373, the wagon he started is in no way a tell of scum for me, but he didn't really push for it as hard I remembered him doing. Pash might be the only one I'd label as null town as opposed to just null. And null is what I'm getting from everyone else not mentioned in this post.

[Majiffy]

All I see you asking is about the same thing. Admittedly I have ADD, so what specific question that has nothing to do with the rvs vote did I miss?

...

I'm done talking to you.

Could everyone please lay out their current reads? I think too many people are getting caught up in minutia. Jiffy, top 3 scum. Farside - same. If we all agree that marcrell is super scum, great. But there's got to be other people that are being scummy for non-fabricated reasons. Who are those people? I'm still not convinced dr pants is town soy reads list is still accurate up until this point

Messiah
Farside
???

[farside22]

Baezu: scum reads Marcell, jiffy and messiah.
Need to reread a few people that are on my null list, Thor and cyber bob debate basically.

[CooLDoG]

v/la for me bday for 2 days

[Paschendale]

you think the person driving the wagon is scummy. Explain please.

We usually argue over attitude, but that's not happening here. It usually looks, to me, like he's just hammering relentlessly on someone who hasn't really warranted such actions. I'm not seeing that here. That makes me suspicious.

Could everyone please lay out their current reads? I think too many people are getting caught up in minutia. Jiffy, top 3 scum. Farside - same. If we all agree that marcrell is super scum, great. But there's got to be other people that are being scummy for non-fabricated reasons. Who are those people? I'm still not convinced dr pants is town soy reads list is still accurate up until this point

I'd really love to see some solid cases on Marcrell. The most I've seen so far boils down essentially to being lurky. It's not very compelling, nor is that idea that there is nothing sufficiently scummy in the more active players.

Marcrell is also right up there on my scum radar. Ultimately I'd say he was still the worst on the me wagon, and I don't think his response to it was all that solid. And of course now I would add the overall lack of presence in the game. At least Messiah's throwing in some pretty detailed posts when he reports in.

Why was it so bad? Is that your only reason? No one else looks scummier than that?

Also considering Baezu as possible scum candidate. Why Not was right, 201 is just shifty looking, and despite her lates posts, is just something that really jumped out at me while going over the game again.

Agreed.

Could everyone please lay out their current reads? I think too many people are getting caught up in minutia. Jiffy, top 3 scum. Farside - same. If we all agree that marcrell is super scum, great. But there's got to be other people that are being scummy for non-fabricated reasons. Who are those people? I'm still not convinced dr pants is town soy reads list is still accurate up until this point

Messiah
Farside
???

This is useful.

My top three are Baezu, Farside, and Pants.

[Thor665]

Links?

Majiffy kind of tossed this to me, and I'm not even sure what the point is - I'm being asked if I normally open up games aggressive?
Did I open up this game in that way?
Because as town i do what I do, and as scum I imitate it spot on to the point no one has (yet?) figured out a way to tell a difference.
So, yeah - this is how I open games. I can give you links if you want.
I'll also agree aggression is what I would expect from Majiffy town - it's why I'm calling hm scum for not being aggressive during the mid point.

Glorified prod dodge =/= scum post

Okay, welll...first off, yes, it does.

Second off, I called you out for your questions later comment.
In this post the only question you asked from a moment prior to my call out was one I *already* asked.

So, yeah, I know you're shoveling it with both hands.

[farside22]

Jiffy has only 2 scum reads. Pfft
Both who voted for him and think he's scum.
Wow nothing omgus about that.

[CooLDoG]

If you are implying that anyone else in this game holds my opinion or if I am representative of any group of people then you are 100% incorrect. My opinion is, to my knowledge, fairly unique in regards to meta.

That meta is useless / stupid? Yeah, you're not the only one who holds that opinion. Sorry! Just kind of a fact.

Open up any game with heavy meta going on and you're bound to find a few people going "ugh, meta is useless/dumb".

Sorry to burst your bubble, you beautiful and unique snowflake.

Yeah, but you won't find people who think it is unilaterally useless. Meaning in every single possible scenario I think meta is useless. Find someone else who will be willing to defend that. But this doesn't matter.

Now the actual theoretical justification: The problem with meta is that the person who you are subjecting to a meta analysis has complete control over their own meta.

Not entirely accurate. You can be completely aware of how you behave in certain situations and still continue to behave in that way despite actively trying not to. It's personality.

uhh your wrong. You have basically an infinite amount of time to make a post.

Example: Bazue being the "scummiest looking townie" is a play style that he has constructed over many games so that as scum he can avoid getting lynched when he does scummy things. As town he throws in a few scummy posts and as scum he throws in some scummy posts and all of a sudden he has a win-win situation meta wise.

Can you confirm that he is actively throwing his town games to bolster his scum games? Or is he just really bad at looking town?

Why not? I do that. Everyone does that. Everyone wants to look town.

Based on this: the proposed action: Lynch all people that make scummy posts regardless of previous games where they have made scummy posts as town.

I have made this exact argument many times...

But people in this thread are making arguments for beuze not to be lynched based on this... which is my point.

The reason is that this breaks the cycle looking scummy as town on purpose.

Except that it doesn't. It should. But it doesn't. Because personality is personality and someone that looks scummy as town is going to continually look scummy as town no matter how many times you lynch them until you teach them how NOT to look scummy as town. And rope doesn't teach someone how to play.

^yes, exactly. If you are scummy as town you get your ass lynched. Conform to the overall site meta or else. This is best for the town, and thus best for mafia as a whole due to the fact that most games you will play are as town.

Town are easier to spot because they will look town in and of themselves without having to second guess scummy posts.

If it were this simple, this game wouldn't exist anymore, because everyone would already teach all new players how to "look town in and of themselves".

But we actually do this! We teach players to scum hunt and make reads and not to do certain things.

This will also facilitate the creation of an objective standard that can be apealed to instead of a constantly changing aggregate standard of scumminess that a scum player has control of.

How many objective scumtells can you identify that have a greater than 75% accuracy?

How many do you think will last very long, with scum knowing said objective scumtells? Would they not just avoid them?

Scumtells are relative to personality, playstyle, and situation. Objectivity is generally a farce to be chased after by inexperienced players.

Misunderstands scum tells with a standard to judge scumminess.

^example of meta filler that in meaningless.

Is it really meaningless? Can you not derive a read of towniness or scuminess in the intention of the post, and the sincerity (or lack thereof) of the sentiments?

It is meaningless in regards to the fact that I do not think that their arguments are valid. I think it is scummy to make filler posts. My "usless" comment is referring to the content of the post NOT if the player is scum or not.

There is nothing scummy in not having your vote constantly on someone. Nothing at all.

What I'm hearing is "I don't do this as town" in this answer.

Vote: Majiffy

WTF??? This right after saying he was trying to get pants lynched.

See this is the stupid meta shit I can agree with Cooldog on.

I'm not digging through 100+ games just to find one with Thor in it just to validify a statement that Thor can readily answer when he comes back.

Goodman.

Done for now.

[Dr Pants]

Glorified prod dodge =/= scum post

Okay, welll...first off, yes, it does.

Second off, I called you out for your questions later comment.
In this post the only question you asked from a moment prior to my call out was one I *already* asked.

So, yeah, I know you're shoveling it with both hands.

I gave a generic prod dodge post, because I had a couple minutes of free time. I don't play Mafia on my phone. I need a computer. So when I had a couple minutes to read, I read. Thinking out arguments, giving opinions on things, etc, takes time. So I said, "I'll be back tomorrow with questions" and I CAME BACK TODAY WITH QUESTIONS. Sorry if you think they're the wrong questions, they just happened to be the things I was thinking about at the time.

you think the person driving the wagon is scummy. Explain please.

Get to the part where you explain your scum read on me, as I have asked you to do for the entire freaking game

[Shiryu]

Marcrell is also right up there on my scum radar. Ultimately I'd say he was still the worst on the me wagon, and I don't think his response to it was all that solid. And of course now I would add the overall lack of presence in the game. At least Messiah's throwing in some pretty detailed posts when he reports in.

Why was it so bad? Is that your only reason? No one else looks scummier than that?

It's both the lurking, and more importantly, the lack of substance to the posts he has made. They basically boil down to admiting he jumped on the wagon to generate discussion, and stating that information will always benefit town. Which I do agree with. It's just that he hasn't contributed much of anything beyond this.

And yeah, Messiah looks scummier to me. That's why my vote is still on him.