Mini 1592: Flying Aces (Game Over)

[farside22]

Case was pretty derp but what do you expect from bussing buddies?

Yes.

Anatole is thrown into the scumreads because the ISO left me feeling incredibly null and that's problematic 22 pages in with plenty of content to work with.

so I'm scum because I'm null? I thought this was AMERICA what happened to innocent until proven guilty!?

It's pretty damning that your ISO leaves me feeling null at 22 pages.

If you're serious then you're kinda bad at mafia

Jiffy's not bad at this game, just scum.
He wants to bus his buddy let him. My wagon of choice is roe but a fighter jet works too.

[Majiffy]

If you're serious then you're kinda bad at mafia

Funny. What have you done? Show me the alignment-indicative posts.

If I was partners with Messiah, why would I bus him and vote him now instead of just going with the established Baezu/Marcrell wagons or joining one of the others? That doesn't make any sense dude.

Slowing momentum on both of those wagons. Shift towards the Messiah wagon. It's the smart move.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Well I'd point to my case on Messiah and posts about his potential partners if he flips scum, but you'd just call that bussing apparently - so it's hard to provide you with a good answer there.

[Belisarius]

Vote Count 04/10/1917.11

(L-2)

Messiah Complex: (5) Majiffy, Shiryu, Anatole Kuragin, farside22, Baezu
Majiffy: (2) Messiah Complex, Thor665
Thor665: (1) Dr Pants
Marcrell: (2) viking cat, CooLDoG
Baezu: (2) Paschendale, Marcrell

Not Voting: Why not

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-08-06 12:45:00)

Mod Notes:
None

[/area]

[Anatole Kuragin]

If Messiah flipped town would you still think I was scum, Majiffy? If he does, who do you think his partners are? Or his presumably one other partner, if you actually think I'm scum.

[Anatole Kuragin]

If he does flip scum*

[Majiffy]

Well I'd point to my case on Messiah and posts about his potential partners if he flips scum, but you'd just call that bussing apparently - so it's hard to provide you with a good answer there.

How about something prior to that one post, since it was made after the post that you took offence to?

What in your ISO prior to that conveniently posted case should have given me any notion to your alignment?



My scum reads are fully independent of each other.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I wasn't saying your inability to read me was bad - I typically post in a way that isn't conducive to clear reads - I was referring to your theory on me bussing Messiah.

that could have been more clear

[Majiffy]

I'm curious why you feel it necessary to nerf your town games in order to bolster your scum games.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I didn't say it was intentional

[Majiffy]

You are aware that you post in a way that makes it difficult to discern your alignment as town and have taken no steps towards improving this, instead sitting back and saying "lol, urrite!".

That's pretty clear-cut intentional.

[Anatole Kuragin]

if you want you can make a separate MD thread for this, because it's a bit more nuanced than you're implying and not really on-topic. if anything this is an issue of over-reliance on behavior tells on this site, or in your own scumhunting which is the bigger issue

[Anatole Kuragin]

if you come to logical conclusions you will see that I am not scum, and that's all I'm obligated to facilitate as a town player

[Majiffy]

if you want you can make a separate MD thread for this, because it's a bit more nuanced than you're implying and not really on-topic. if anything this is an issue of over-reliance on behavior tells on this site, or in your own scumhunting which is the bigger issue

1) It is against site rules to make an MD thread regarding an ongoing game.
2) It is very on-topic. I am asking you to provide reasons for me to read you as town. You have offered an excuse that borders on wincon throwing.
3) This has nothing to do with behavioral tells or my own scumhunting abilities. You have stated explicitly that you are aware that your gameplay is difficult to discern, with an implication that you know the reasons

why

your gameplay is difficult to discern, but you actively refuse to take measures to counteract that.

At best, you're a poor scum player. At worst, you're a gamethrowing townie. So, which is it?

if you come to logical conclusions you will see that I am not scum, and that's all I'm obligated to facilitate as a town player

How can I come to these logical conclusions if your play is admittedly alignment-obscure?

[Baezu]

I'm starting to see you point about jif scum, farside

[Anatole Kuragin]

1) I meant after the game
2) you should read me as town because I'm pursuing scum lynches and not misleading the town or pursuing mislynches
3) I am aware people typically have trouble reading me - that doesn't naturally lead to any of the conclusions you're suggesting

if you read through my games you'll see that skilled town players can typically read my alignment and that scum typically see me as a threat - I'm actually not sure if I've ever been lynched in a finished game but am often night-killed. If I was lynchbait that would make no sense. I also have a 100% scum winrate I think.

I think I'm saying my alignment isn't that difficult to discern if you look at logic rather than behavior tells, like I said earlier. unfortunately most players are only good at the later and part of it is because I'm not great at expressing my thoughts in words - something I've worked on my entire life but is going to be an eternal obstacle

you haven't provided a single valid reason that I am scum, and the burden of proof is on you anyways

[Anatole Kuragin]

and again, it's not on-topic unless you just really want to delay this game for some reason. there is 0 evidence that I am not playing pro-town and your only point is that YOU have trouble reading me, along with other players overly dependent on behavior tells, but for the most part this game I think I'm a townread for most players?

[Majiffy]

2) you should read me as town because I'm pursuing scum lynches and not misleading the town or pursuing mislynches
3) I am aware people typically have trouble reading me - that doesn't naturally lead to any of the conclusions you're suggesting

2) No one has flipped scum, so I can't be certain of that. Furthermore, you're only hopping onto a recently popular wagon, so I'd argue that a Messiah flip does nothing to better your standing.
3) It does the way you phrased it; "[You] typically post in a way that isn't conducive to clear reads". If it were something you didn't actively understand and continue to do, you'd simply say people typically have a hard time reading you. Instead, you chose the active phrasing. You take responsibility for the fact that you post in an alignment-obscuring way. So it very much

does

lead to the conclusions I'm suggesting.

if you read through my games you'll see that skilled town players can typically read my alignment and that scum typically see me as a threat - I'm actually not sure if I've ever been lynched in a finished game but am often night-killed. If I was lynchbait that would make no sense. I also have a 100% scum winrate I think.

This kind of self-meta is useless banter to enforce an untenable position. Either you are hard to discern or you aren't. You can't have both ends of the stick.

I think I'm saying my alignment isn't that difficult to discern if you look at logic rather than behavior tells, like I said earlier. unfortunately most players are only good at the later and part of it is because I'm not great at expressing my thoughts in words - something I've worked on my entire life but is going to be an eternal obstacle

you haven't provided a single valid reason that I am scum, and the burden of proof is on you anyways

My valid reason is we are now 24 pages into a game with plenty of content to work with, and I find you an unacceptably null read. I see little dedication to scumhunting in your ISO, you tend to stray away from active involvement in most game events, and I have a very small grasp on why you hold any of the reads you do.

[Majiffy]

and again, it's not on-topic unless you just really want to delay this game for some reason. there is 0 evidence that I am not playing pro-town and your only point is that YOU have trouble reading me, along with other players overly dependent on behavior tells, but for the most part this game I think I'm a townread for most players?

How is discerning your alignment

not

on-topic?

[farside22]

I'm starting to see you point about jif scum, farside

Yup the filter that jiffy puts in this game is how dare you act like null, you must be scum to let's talk meta for pages.
Active but is it scummy points he's making?
No.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Because my argument is that you are trying to discern my alignment by behavior rather than logic. If you were using logic, my alignment would be town.

That's not self meta wifom, it's statistics. I'm pointing out that there is hard evidence that I am not an awful town or scum player, which are the only two choices you posited.

I said Messiah was scum multiple times before that post and pointed out his tone issues before a messiah wagon existed.

If it were something you didn't actively understand and continue to do, you'd simply say people typically have a hard time reading you. Instead, you chose the active phrasing. You take responsibility for the fact that you post in an alignment-obscuring way. So it very much does lead to the conclusions I'm suggesting.

I'm not entirely trying to shirk the blame for people's misreading me - the style that I am most comfortable posting and scumhunting in is logically sound but behaviorally can be strange to people. There's more to it than that that is not remotely relevant in this game and I don't feel comfortable discussing it here because I feel like it will be twisted into an excuse or defense of some sort and that's not something I'm comfortable with.

But again, just because you can't get a read on me in 24 pages, doesn't mean nobody else can. Do you think you are 100% correct in your reads of the other 11 players? Do you think that's their fault or yours? If it's the latter, maybe the issue is your ability to read people and not that they are awful or game throwing players, like you're implying with me.

[Majiffy]

I'm not sure what your perspective on "scumhunting by logic" means. Please provide several examples.

While you're at it, please explain with your precious logic what the third option would be - given that you have already admitted you play in an alignment-obscure fashion - if not poor scum or gamethrowing town.

Soft-supporting a wagon is not something outside the realm of possibility for a scumbuddy. Especially one that is being voted by a charismatic player.

Considering I am trying to discern your alignment, I would argue it is very relevant to this game that you continue this line of discussion. Any further attempts to shut down discussion regarding your playstyle and the proper way to read you will be seen as a scumclaim.

If I am such a poor scumhunter, then why am I being scumread for the perception of not playing up to my standard? Again; you can't have it both ways.

[Why not]

vote marcrell

think some pushback is better for this moment

[Why not]

guys there is absolutely no chance of a majiffy lynch today

[CooLDoG]

vote marcrell

think some pushback is better for this moment

You know, you are actually really starting to set-off my scum-dar. I mean you are actively trying to derail a wagon before we get a response to a decent case and in the next post you preemptively defend a wagon.

What you think of why not farside?