Mini 1592: Flying Aces (Game Over)

[farside22]

Baezu: you think cooldog pushing on thor was scum bussing, especially read thor's reaction?
Why?

I noted no interaction with Marcell, the weird comment from messiah still bugs me. He listed thor as null scum, then defends thor then list him as town. Does not help when you have 2 heads and neither sign there post.
Why is shir scum with thor based on interaction?

[Belisarius]

Vote Count 04/11/1917.01

Why not: (2) Dr Pants, CooLDoG
Shiryu: (1) Baezu
Baezu: (1) Paschendale

Not Voting: Anatole Kuragin, Marcrell, Messiah Complex, Why not, Shiryu, farside22

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-08-18 15:10:00)

Mod Notes:
None

[CooLDoG]

Cooldog
There are no such thing as "I told you so" town points.

Exactly, and that is why you should have known better not to do it this game.

I noted no interaction with Marcell, the weird comment from messiah still bugs me. He listed thor as null scum, then defends thor then list him as town.

Yeah, Marcell and messiah still bug me. Still think why not is the way to go though. I would be down for a marcell wagon though. Also we NEED to hear from messiah. And why the hell isn't he dead. <---- needs to be talked about.

[Shiryu]

Baezu, you'd vote me based on that bit of interaction from way back then? The same thing essentially happened with me and Majiffy, and he ended up being town. The way I see it, that was just their way of acknowleding that I had started playing more seriously (based on my 233) compared to my previous posts, regardless of their actual alignment. Now maybe Thor did it to leave a good impression on me, which I supposed worked, since from that point on you'll notice I had practically no interaction with for the rest of day 1. Reason for this, as I had stated a few times, is that personally I wasn't getting any scummy vibes from him, and chose to focus on the other players.

I honestly think that's a rather weak reason to make a vote, considering everything else that's happened in the game.

[Messiah Complex]

Far side, I haven't forgotten about you, just never got a chance to reply before day ended.

We protected Cool dog last night since he was, in our opinion, the most townie.

Not sure why we aren't dead, honestly I didn't even check the thread because I'm at work and expected to be dead. It really could be for any reason. Maybe scum figured they could easily push us today because of how much heat we took yesterday. Maybe they picked up on a vig and decided to let us live in hopes that we might accidentally save their scum partners.

Baezu, we don't like how quickly you call for everyone to claim nationalities, it feels like you have a nice new shiny fake claim you want to parade in front of everyone to show just how town you are.

[Why not]

thor is an experienced player
it's incredibly risky to rely on his iso to reliably hint at lynch targets

[farside22]

thor is an experienced player
it's incredibly risky to rely on his iso to reliably hint at lynch targets

Did you think the case on pants had merit?

[Why not]

thor is an experienced player
it's incredibly risky to rely on his iso to reliably hint at lynch targets

Did you think the case on pants had merit?

i did, but as you can i see i ultimately rejected it

[CooLDoG]

Not sure why we aren't dead, honestly I didn't even check the thread because I'm at work and expected to be dead. It really could be for any reason. Maybe scum figured they could easily push us today because of how much heat we took yesterday. Maybe they picked up on a vig and decided to let us live in hopes that we might accidentally save their scum partners.

Baezu, we don't like how quickly you call for everyone to claim nationalities, it feels like you have a nice new shiny fake claim you want to parade in front of everyone to show just how town you are.

Like, there is no wifom for scum to kill, which is what I don't understand. The risk of keeping you alive and missing out on an NK far outweighs the "free" lynch.

Also, Baezu wanting nationalities is stupid and scummy. That shit is so fake-able. Shit, two of us have already claimed it if you read early d1.

thor is an experienced player
it's incredibly risky to rely on his iso to reliably hint at lynch targets

^this. Ohh wait.

Why wouldn't they have night talk to discuss lynch targets?

SCUM SLIP?

[Why not]

wat

[Shiryu]

Alright CD, you kinda lost me on that post. I mean, I have to agree with Why Not's point there. Going over Thor's ISO to see his interaction with the other players isn't really the best way to look for scum. If he's as experienced as I'm understanding he is, I figure he'll find ways to make town look scummy and to distance himself from his partners without it looking like his distancing himself, which would of course lead to a wifom situation if he assumed that's what we'd be looking for. Though I suppose he probably wasn't expecting to be killed night 1 like that.

Also, just to be clear, you're stating that Messiah being alive would be much more likely due to him being scum as opposed to him being the doc and scum leaving him alive in the hopes he'll get lynched, right?

[Dr Pants]

^ lynches here are also fine

Thor's not a god. He's scum, he has an ISO, he's said and done things. Saying we should ignore his ISO is incredibly scummy.

[Shiryu]

I'm not saying we should ignore his ISO completely, rather that it's simply not the best way to look for scum.

And I'd still like to know why you're voting for Why Not.

[Dr Pants]

Thor's case is a set of legitimate concerns about the coherence of drpants's stance patterns.
I'm having trouble figuring out if this incoherence stems from DrPants' alliance or the way he thinks. But I'm currently leaning toward the latter for gut reasons.

thor is an experienced player
it's incredibly risky to rely on his iso to reliably hint at lynch targets

Did you think the case on pants had merit?

i did, but as you can i see i ultimately rejected it

Here's my problem with you. Half the time your arguments are well thought out and explained. Then the other half you just completely hand wave. You basically said Thor had a good case on me but I was town for "reasons". You waffled hard on your position on me during the day for no real reasons.

Then there's this shit:

vote marcrell

think some pushback is better for this moment

Bam! counter wagon to the Messiah wagon

before

Messiah claims doc. No reason what so ever given for this.

Then!

guys there is absolutely no chance of a majiffy lynch today

i think you guys are just voting for majiffy because he's a dick

"Majiffy lynch wont happen guys! You dont have good reasons, you just dont like jiffy!"

Then!

I'm not an enemy of the majiffy wagon, especially after his push of messiah after the claim. Besides, posts like the above are so tired.

Bam! Cognitive dissonance for the win! What happens, you ask, to change Why Not's mind on Majiffy between post 678 and post 681? Nothing! The two posts between were just Baezu talking about Marcell and Messiah. Unrelated to Why Not and Majiffy. Finally!

I'm willing to

vote majiffy

.

The vote, made for BS reasons, after he basically said this was a bad wagon.

Q.E.D. lynch please and thank you

[Why not]

that is all very bad, but i wouldn't call it cherry-picky
it's just symptomatic of your habit of casing poorly

i'll break it down later

[Shiryu]

Well now, that's the sorta thing I was talking about. Consider me convinced, Pants. Post 678 seems to be the key thing for me here, which Anatole failed to bring up in 763 (possibly intentionally?). Why Not, you might have argued that your original statement on the Majiffy wagon not happening was just with regards to which wagons were viable, but 678 is definitely showing you would have been against the wagon at that point, which quickly changed as Pants points out, with no game changing posts in between.

VOTE: Why not

[Dr Pants]

that is all very bad, but i wouldn't call it cherry-picky
it's just symptomatic of your habit of casing poorly

i'll break it down later

k. I'll just solace my self with the knowledge that my "poorly cased" read on Thor was completely correct.

[Dr Pants]

My turn to WIFOM: Thor is scum. Being a good player, Thor plays scum by playing a "town" game. Doing so means capitalizing on mistakes that town makes, to give the appearance of scum hunting. A relatively new player says something that catches Thor's eye. So scum Thor capitalizes on this. Knowing that I would be unlikely able to answer his questions perfectly, he is free to tunnel away at me and keep getting new things to accuse me of. The difference between scum Thor, and town Thor, is that town Thor would be looking for scum everywhere. Town Thor would be somewhat more willing to accept he could be wrong about a read. Scum Thor knows that by keeping his foot on the gas he places pressure on a player who might not be able to handle it properly.

Hows that, am I close?

Check out that "poor case"! Man was I was so bad, I got it 100% correct on accident.

[Dr Pants]

Man was I was bad at proofreading

[Why not]

lol
we'll see how cocky you are after my wagon flops

[Why not]

Looking more closely, I'm having trouble figuring out how DrPants's case makes sense.
It's as if DrPants is reading my posts and then ignoring those exact same posts?

I'll focus on what he thinks is my flipflop on DrPants.

My DrPants position has to do with the fact that he has indeed said a lot of things that are not just demonstrably false (though that as well), but also things that are incoherent - things that can't be true. So at first, I thought this was scummy enough to poke at, but as the incoherencies built up, I decided that they could not have anything to do with DrPants's alliance since scum are more likely to be choosey and careful about when they'll say something that makes them vulnerable to criticism. I reduced it to a null tell, and decided by a gutread of the passion of DrPants's other posts that he was likely to be town. I'll go through each of DrPants' quoted objections to this narrative now. In principle, there is nothing wrong with pushing a wagon on someone for making incoherent cases to get someone lynched, especially on D1 - hence my position that Thor's case had merit even as I now had a confident townread on Pants.

DrPants says "Here's my problem with you. Half the time your arguments are well thought out and explained. Then the other half you just completely hand wave. You basically said Thor had a good case on me but I was town for "reasons". You waffled hard on your position on me during the day for no real reasons." I think I've avoided hand-waving, and that as scum I would have taken a clearer position on DrPants than "the case has merit, but..."

I explained

why

I didn't support the DrPants wagon and also

why

I thought it had merit. I definitely did waffle on you, but I waffle on everyone all the time as town because I have no idea how to scumhunt; it's a profound epistemological problem for me, and you're just going to have to deal with it. But I provided a clear account of this waffling - it wasn't clear where your incoherence was coming from. It doesn't seem fair given the evidence to say that I waffled for no reason at all, and either way it's definitely not accurate.

[Dr Pants]

The stuff involving me isn't the interesting part. The interesting part is your changing stance and eventual vote on Majiffy. Explain the change you made between 678 and 681.

[Why not]

vote marcrell

think some pushback is better for this moment

Bam! counter wagon to the Messiah wagon

before

Messiah claims doc. No reason what so ever given for this.[/quote]

I don't understand. Are you claiming that I already knew that Messiah was doc before I claimed? Because that's ridiculous on a lot of different levels.

I started the counter wagon because I felt like it was a great way to make D1 as full of useful information as possible. With multiple wagons afoot, we can ask questions like "why did this wagon gain momentum, but not others?" and so forth. Either way, I thought it was harmless because nothing about the Messiah wagon suggested that he was a particularly solid lynch. The Marcrell wagon was just as good or better.

[Why not]

The stuff involving me isn't the interesting part. The interesting part is your changing stance and eventual vote on Majiffy. Explain the change you made between 678 and 681.

The posts were made in a

two minute time interval

.
There was no change, and it's silly to even think that scum would even feign such a change in such a short amount of time.

The fact of the matter is nothing about my appraisal of the motivation behind the Majiffy wagon (I really do think his being a dick was its driving force) had anything to do with my appraisal of the merits of a majiffy wagon. I had reasons independent of what other people had for being suspicious of majiffy in 678-681.

Let's say there's this person you think has done scummy things. A few people are voting for that person for doing things that you don't think are scummy. Doesn't it make sense - and isn't it helpful to the town - to voice that you are sympathetic to their wagon but not to their cases, and then explain why? Well I do.

And that's what happened in 678-681.

[Why not]

Well now, that's the sorta thing I was talking about. Consider me convinced, Pants. Post 678 seems to be the key thing for me here, which Anatole failed to bring up in 763 (possibly intentionally?). Why Not, you might have argued that your original statement on the Majiffy wagon not happening was just with regards to which wagons were viable, but 678 is definitely showing you would have been against the wagon at that point, which quickly changed as Pants points out, with no game changing posts in between.

VOTE: Why not

Alright CD, you kinda lost me on that post. I mean, I have to agree with Why Not's point there. Going over Thor's ISO to see his interaction with the other players isn't really the best way to look for scum. If he's as experienced as I'm understanding he is, I figure he'll find ways to make town look scummy and to distance himself from his partners without it looking like his distancing himself, which would of course lead to a wifom situation if he assumed that's what we'd be looking for. Though I suppose he probably wasn't expecting to be killed night 1 like that.

Also, just to be clear, you're stating that Messiah being alive would be much more likely due to him being scum as opposed to him being the doc and scum leaving him alive in the hopes he'll get lynched, right?

here is condensed version of these posts:

I concur with this guy! But let me just elaborate extensively here on this issue for a few lines so that I can be needlessly clear about just who, what, and why I concur so that it's clear that I am contributing to and participating in this very important discussion on matters scum and town and lynches."